NBA All Star Draft Play-In 4 : WLK vs 500

[Shanemansj13]

I'd really like to see how you can say the pieces I have don't fit MJ to a T... And Shane are you aware West is a 9x first team all D...

Of course, great defender. Top 10 player of all-time IMO. Kidd also made 9 defensive team, not all 1st team. I think you will even agree making defensive teams now or in the 90's is different than back in the day. It takes nothing away from West but Kidd can also post up West. MJ and West is hard to beat I just thought the supporting cast around the stars worked in 500's way slightly.

Just to be clear West is still gonna get his no matter what just like any star

 

[tlance]

I'd really like to see how you can say the pieces I have don't fit MJ to a T... And Shane are you aware West is a 9x first team all D...

I should not say that his pieces fit better, but IMO, the matchups do favor him slightly.

Kidd vs. West- is a great matchup. Edge goes to West, but they battle all game. Kidd makes West work for everything.
MJ vs. Wade- clearly the edge is to MJ, but not by as much as people think. Wade is like the poor man's Jordan. He is athletic enough to slow him down a little and will make him work on D
Battier/Lewis vs Mullin- clear win for Mullin.
Dirk vs Nance- clear win for Dirk
Milan vs Ewing- edge for Ewing for sure

Overall, the starters are even IMO, because I think the two most significant advantages are Mullin and Dirk. I don't think either team has a significant edge on the bench either. In the end I voted 500 because he has better shooting, and that is how I break the tie. Extremely close though.

 

[Pack 500]

I should not say that his pieces fit better, but IMO, the matchups do favor him slightly.

Kidd vs. West- is a great matchup. Edge goes to West, but they battle all game. Kidd makes West work for everything.
MJ vs. Wade- clearly the edge is to MJ, but not by as much as people think. Wade is like the poor man's Jordan. He is athletic enough to slow him down a little and will make him work on D
Battier/Lewis vs Mullin- clear win for Mullin.
Dirk vs Nance- clear win for Dirk
Milan vs Ewing- edge for Ewing for sure

Overall, the starters are even IMO, because I think the two most significant advantages are Mullin and Dirk. I don't think either team has a significant edge on the bench either. In the end I voted 500 because he has better shooting, and that is how I break the tie. Extremely close though.

Funny that's exactly how I think of Wade too

 

[Nosferatu]

Ritz thought he had already voted, he just text me he votes 500.


That means WLK loses because of Ritz!

 

[Ritzarmy]

Ritz thought he had already voted, he just text me he votes 500.


That means WLK loses because of Ritz!

Nos told me 500 already won but I needed to vote anyways so I said sure I'll join the cool crowd for once and I'll pick 500. Darn you Nos tricking me. Notice how he tries to make me look bad right before he faces my team. Oh it's on Tommy. Lol

 

[Ritzarmy]

Seriously though I do vote for 500 but I went back in forth on this matchup for such a long time that I thought I voted a few hours ago on it. Amazing team WLK and such a accomplishment on the team you put around Jordan despite the cap space.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Ritz thought he had already voted, he just text me he votes 500.


That means WLK loses because of Ritz!

@Ritzarmy it's all YOUR FAULT

 

[Ritzarmy]

@Ritzarmy it's all YOUR FAULT

It usually is

 

[wlk3]

I want to be careful on how I respond for 2 reasons... 1) I didn't handle myself well when I lost a match vs Mebert a while back and 2) I've really hoped Tlance would join us here and I don't to run him off although I've seen that he's very knowledgeable and doesn't shy from debate...

First, the difference Michael Jordan vs D Wade is absolutely what people think...

D Wade was selected 3 times to the 2nd all defense, that's it... 1x scoring champ which was the first and only time he averaged 30.2ppg, a career 23.7 ppg,

Michael Jordan is a 9 time 1st team all defense, 3x steal leader, and a Defensive Player of the Year... Michael Jordan is a CAREER 30.1PPG, 10x SCORING CHAMP, 8x over 30ppg up to 35ppg and 37.1ppg at 49% CAREER...

DWade makes him work on both sides is it...? DWade is a poor mans MJ is it...? This is a CLEAR ass kicking especially with the fact that he can't get help... If you're saying he can I'd LOVE to know from where... Does DWade even play 30 minutes before he could out...?

Jerry West vs JKidd... First, I was mistaken... West was 4x 1st team all D and 1x 2nd team... However, he was only eligible for 5 because the team wasn't selected until his last 5 years but no I don't think it was different when he was selected... I think Kidd does well but we're talking 6'4" 205 vs 6'2" 175... And if he does post up, I have 2 exceptional shot blockers help defenders at that... The fact that there was no 3pt line says we have to imagine, but if you think Jerry West is not a 3pt threat you're crazy... Do you guys realize when JKidd was "JKidd" he shot .337% 3pt shooting...? So when you say a 3pt threat you can't be talking about him, nor DWade career .284 3pt shooter a career high .317 % and he only shoots 30% 4 times total... So Mullins and Dirk are the deep threats...

Mullins vs Battier... Now there is no question Mullins is better than Battier... I point to this, in 37 games vs Kobe Bryant, Kobe averaged 28.6ppg... Now that's a lot but that's Kobe and Mullins is no Kobe let's be honest... And it was to .433%... Shane Battier will be all up in Mullins shit like you guys are claiming DWade will do to Michael Jordan... He also brings .384 3pt % for his career over 40% twice so DWade gets no help there... Mullins should score, but it should be inefficient...

Dirk, I get this... It's a clear advantage... However, Nance has a 1st team and 2 2nd team all D... Dirk plays no D on a 17 career ppg player while Dirk is a 22ppg player... What's the huge difference that Mullins and Dirk bringing when I have MJ and what's maybe the second clearest advantage...

Ewing vs Mikan... Come on... Did you say West's accolades were inflated...? By the way 21ppg and 5 straight years of 3 blocks per game once 4bpg 3x all d 2nd team like Wade by the way...

Kidd has 9 total all D some 1st some 2nd...
DWade 3 total 2nd all D...
Nobody else...

West 5 total all d, 4 1st team 1nd...
MJ 9 total 1st team all d, DPOY...
Battier 2 2nd team all d...
Nance 1 1st team 2 2nd team all d...
Ewing 3 2nd team all d...

Based on all the above I have...

Kidd - 12 points 13 assists 7rebs
Wade - 15 points
Mullins - 21 points
Dirk - 24 points
Mikan - 8 points

Bench 17 points

96 points


West - 17 points
MJ - 36 points
Battier - 7 points
Nance - 11 points
Ewing - 26 points

Bench - 15 points

112

 

[tlance]

@wlk3

I understand your frustration. You have a great team and caught probably 1 of 2 or 3 that had a chance to beat you in the first round. I look at it a bit differently though, and like you said,
I won't shy away from debate.

When I look at these, I try to go beyond accolades and think about what would happen if these teams actually met. Wade's accolades are not as impressive as Jordan's partly because he isn't as good, but also because he career began an early decline at 30 because of injury.

What I see though, is that Wade is every bit as quick as Jordan, and although he gives up 2 inches, he outweighs Mike by 20-25 pounds. Wade is a bull when he attacks the rim, and Jordan can't lock him down without help, just like Wade needs help on MJ. Both players have terrific mid range games and both are relentlessly competitive. Jordan wins the matchup, but is is more like 30 for MJ and 22 for Wade, IMO.

Dirk vs. Nance: did you know that Dirk outweighs Nance by 40 pounds? Nance has a quickness advantage, but there is nothing he can do to prevent Dirk from getting his midrange turnaround shot away. Then again, there is nothing anybody can do on that. If you try to isolate Nance to take advantage of his speed, you are taking the ball out of the hands of your superstars, which plays into 500's hands.

Ewing vs. Mikan: Mikan had Better accolades than Ewing and I was surprised to see that he actually outweighs Ewing by a few pounds. Ewing can shoot over Mikan, but Mikan can score on Ewing also with his footwork and savvy. Ewing wins this matchup, but not in total domination as you have predicted. I think Mikan struggles against quicker centers like Hakeem or Robinson, but Ewing played right at Mikan's speed.

Lastly, the main reason I voted against your team was the SF position. Battier is an outstanding glue guy and a very good defender, but he is overmatched as a starting SF in this. I would like him as a 20 minute bench guy. Lewis, his back up could take minutes, but when he enters the game you lose the floor spacing Battier provides.

Bottom line, I think 500 has studs in the right places to both slow your superstars and take advantage of your areas of relative weakness. I know you are not going to agree with my take, but I hope you can respect it.

Can we take this matchup and mine vs. UK as a reason to find some method of reseeding in the future? It is unfortunate to see great teams going out so early. Perhaps a preliminary vote where every owner votes for their top 3 based on gut feel, independent of matchups and then seed from there? I am fairly certain that had we done something like that, your team would not have faced 500's in round 1.

 

[Pack 500]

I want to be careful on how I respond for 2 reasons... 1) I didn't handle myself well when I lost a match vs Mebert a while back and 2) I've really hoped Tlance would join us here and I don't to run him off although I've seen that he's very knowledgeable and doesn't shy from debate...

First, the difference Michael Jordan vs D Wade is absolutely what people think...

D Wade was selected 3 times to the 2nd all defense, that's it... 1x scoring champ which was the first and only time he averaged 30.2ppg, a career 23.7 ppg,

Michael Jordan is a 9 time 1st team all defense, 3x steal leader, and a Defensive Player of the Year... Michael Jordan is a CAREER 30.1PPG, 10x SCORING CHAMP, 8x over 30ppg up to 35ppg and 37.1ppg at 49% CAREER...

DWade makes him work on both sides is it...? DWade is a poor mans MJ is it...? This is a CLEAR ass kicking especially with the fact that he can't get help... If you're saying he can I'd LOVE to know from where... Does DWade even play 30 minutes before he could out...?

Jerry West vs JKidd... First, I was mistaken... West was 4x 1st team all D and 1x 2nd team... However, he was only eligible for 5 because the team wasn't selected until his last 5 years but no I don't think it was different when he was selected... I think Kidd does well but we're talking 6'4" 205 vs 6'2" 175... And if he does post up, I have 2 exceptional shot blockers help defenders at that... The fact that there was no 3pt line says we have to imagine, but if you think Jerry West is not a 3pt threat you're crazy... Do you guys realize when JKidd was "JKidd" he shot .337% 3pt shooting...? So when you say a 3pt threat you can't be talking about him, nor DWade career .284 3pt shooter a career high .317 % and he only shoots 30% 4 times total... So Mullins and Dirk are the deep threats...

Mullins vs Battier... Now there is no question Mullins is better than Battier... I point to this, in 37 games vs Kobe Bryant, Kobe averaged 28.6ppg... Now that's a lot but that's Kobe and Mullins is no Kobe let's be honest... And it was to .433%... Shane Battier will be all up in Mullins shit like you guys are claiming DWade will do to Michael Jordan... He also brings .384 3pt % for his career over 40% twice so DWade gets no help there... Mullins should score, but it should be inefficient...

Dirk, I get this... It's a clear advantage... However, Nance has a 1st team and 2 2nd team all D... Dirk plays no D on a 17 career ppg player while Dirk is a 22ppg player... What's the huge difference that Mullins and Dirk bringing when I have MJ and what's maybe the second clearest advantage...

Ewing vs Mikan... Come on... Did you say West's accolades were inflated...? By the way 21ppg and 5 straight years of 3 blocks per game once 4bpg 3x all d 2nd team like Wade by the way...

Kidd has 9 total all D some 1st some 2nd...
DWade 3 total 2nd all D...
Nobody else...

West 5 total all d, 4 1st team 1nd...
MJ 9 total 1st team all d, DPOY...
Battier 2 2nd team all d...
Nance 1 1st team 2 2nd team all d...
Ewing 3 2nd team all d...

Based on all the above I have...

Kidd - 12 points 13 assists 7rebs
Wade - 15 points
Mullins - 21 points
Dirk - 24 points
Mikan - 8 points

Bench 17 points

96 points


West - 17 points
MJ - 36 points
Battier - 7 points
Nance - 11 points
Ewing - 26 points

Bench - 15 points

112

Love you man but your dismissal of Wade and my team all together is pretty ridiculous. Apparently Wade's going to get dominated but Dirk going up against Larry Nance and Mullin vs. a role player nah nothing to see there at all. Then Jerry West's accolades count but you completely dismiss George Mikan? Whatever you say

 

[Shanemansj13]

I think there is too much emphasis on accolades and less about how the pieces fit IMO. Iguodala isnt an accolade guy but I would take him over Battier for defense. Another thing is the era difference. West averaged what 27 and 9. For example, I think guys in this era who average 22 and 10 against better athletes would absolutely demolish the competition. It doesnt take anything away from West as a player but in these matchups vs better athletes unfortunately it does. The fact we dont know if West could shoot the 3 is a complication but there is nothing we do about that debate, he is a mid-range shooter from what we have witnessed. I already thought Wlk had one of the best teams in this draft but this matchup was close but I just felt 500's team fit better even going against MJ. Remember, MJ while being an all-time great defender he doesnt have two more of the greatest defenders ever by him so he know has all the responsibility to guard Wade, Battier isnt a good matchup for Wade so that puts it on MJ and you are definitely undervaluing Wade. Great matchup though.

 

[tlance]

I think there is too much emphasis on accolades and less about how the pieces fit IMO. Iguodala isnt an accolade guy but I would take him over Battier for defense. Another thing is the era difference. West averaged what 27 and 9. For example, I think guys in this era who average 22 and 10 against better athletes would absolutely demolish the competition. It doesnt take anything away from West as a player but in these matchups vs better athletes unfortunately it does. The fact we dont know if West could shoot the 3 is a complication but there is nothing we do about that debate, he is a mid-range shooter from what we have witnessed. I already thought Wlk had one of the best teams in this draft but this matchup was close but I just felt 500's team fit better even going against MJ. Remember, MJ while being an all-time great defender he doesnt have two more of the greatest defenders ever by him so he know has all the responsibility to guard Wade, Battier isnt a good matchup for Wade so that puts it on MJ and you are definitely undervaluing Wade. Great matchup though.

I agree with most, but I do think it is fair to assume West would have been a great 3 point shooter. I won't make the same assumption with all players from that era, but West for sure.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I agree with most, but I do think it is fair to assume West would have been a great 3 point shooter. I won't make the same assumption with all players from that era, but West for sure.

Yeah he could be a very good, reliable 3 point shooter but we still have no way of knowing, which sucks bc we have other guys that we know are good shooters and we just have to put a question mark right there bc we can't assume anything.
The main difference is how good would he have been shooting with a hand in his face more often then not, the OVERALL defense back then wasn't close to the defense now especially with the athleticism. Don't get me wrong there were some great athletes and defensive specialists in every era but overall. I mean look at Steph, amazing shooter but he is hitting shots from 28 feet with a hand in his face. West didn't have to face that defense night in and night out. I still think West would have been a great player especially his ability to get to the free throw line, he was a great free throw shooter.

 

[Shanemansj13]

About Those Numbers From the 1960s… | Statitudes

I thought this was a pretty interesting article.