Most Cowher players are no longer around

[SJ20]

This is truly Mike Tomlin's team and it shows!

 

[#1BostonFan]

Really losing hope that fast? Tomlin has been great for you...smh.

 

[SJ20]

No he hasn't. He inherited a solid core group of players. Now the real Mike Tomlin is showing up.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

This is truly Mike Tomlin's team and it shows!

Burghsouth is that you??

 

[ATL96Steeler]

This is truly Mike Tomlin's team and it shows!

I love these "Cowher's player" threads.

The reality is Tom Donahoe was the GM in charge of player personnel when Cowher was hired until he resigned in '99...some people say he lost a power struggle with Cowher and that's why he left. Kevin Colbert was hired by the Rooney's as his replacement.

Cowher did have more of a role in the draft in this working arrangement. However, the GM/head coach structure did not change, the GM with input from the HC picked the players and the HC coached them. That was and continues to be the Steeler way so to speak.

This was not the ideal arrangement that Cowher wanted in light of other HC (Bill Parcells, Shanahan, Belichick) getting more personnel power and ultimately he soured on it and decided he would step down to spend more time with his family.

Cowher has never drafted player for the Steelers.

Bottomline...Cowher/Colbert has been better than Tomlin/Colbert.

 

[element1286]

I love these "Cowher's player" threads.

The reality is Tom Donahoe was the GM in charge of player personnel when Cowher was hired until he resigned in '99...some people say he lost a power struggle with Cowher and that's why he left. Kevin Colbert was hired by the Rooney's as his replacement.

Cowher did have more of a role in the draft in this working arrangement. However, the GM/head coach structure did not change, the GM with input from the HC picked the players and the HC coached them. That was and continues to be the Steeler way so to speak.

This was not the ideal arrangement that Cowher wanted in light of other HC (Bill Parcells, Shanahan, Belichick) getting more personnel power and ultimately he soured on it and decided he would step down to spend more time with his family.

Cowher has never drafted player for the Steelers.

Bottomline...Cowher/Colbert has been better than Tomlin/Colbert.

I don't disagree with your characterization, but since the drafts have produced very little in the past 5 years, there is something wrong with the way the org either evaluates college talent, or the way the coaching staff develops said talent, or both.

Really, it is the main reason the team finds itself in the predicament it is in.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I don't disagree with your characterization, but since the drafts have produced very little in the past 5 years, there is something wrong with the way the org either evaluates college talent, or the way the coaching staff develops said talent, or both.

Really, it is the main reason the team finds itself in the predicament it is in.

I've had people that where close to that situation personally confirm that Cowher didn't leave just for family reasons. There is something to the player personnel angle.

To your point...I think it's a little bit of both.

Players...no question. What did they have...something like 12 players (maybe more like 15+) that played on 2 SB teams and a few played on 3...that's was an incredible run from one group of players. In this FA era I'm not sure we'll see that again... ever. The point here is I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect to replace that many players with comparable talent. and not miss a beat.

Coaching...Something is missing...losing far too often to teams that don't make the playoffs much...we're seeing that he's not this super coach...he's got some flaws.

 

[SJ20]

That is what I'm getting at. Tomlin was thought to be a great coach. But the fact is, he took over a great situation with a great core group of players already in place. Now that most of those players are gone, Tomlin is starting to get exposed more and more. The Rooney's have put themselves in a tough position and when the time comes to fire Tomlin, they might not be able to do it. Todd Haley has to go right now. That is obvious. But Mike Tomlin isn't the coach we thought he was and we will now have to endure years of mediocrity.

 

[element1286]

I've had people that where close to that situation personally confirm that Cowher didn't leave just for family reasons. There is something to the player personnel angle.

To your point...I think it's a little bit of both.

Players...no question. What did they have...something like 12 players (maybe more like 15+) that played on 2 SB teams and a few played on 3...that's was an incredible run from one group of players. In this FA era I'm not sure we'll see that again... ever. The point here is I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect to replace that many players with comparable talent. and not miss a beat.

Coaching...Something is missing...losing far too often to teams that don't make the playoffs much...we're seeing that he's not this super coach...he's got some flaws.

Yea, I mean it's pretty obvious he isn't a great coach, he might be one day, but he isn't now.

I agree, it's hard to expect continued success year after year, and hitting on many picks. I'm just worried they are too eager to keep all the vets from the Superbowl teams, and are doing so at the expense of the younger guys, most notably Keenan Lewis and Mike Wallace. And then there are just guys who are drafted never seemed to fit the system in the first place, Ziggy Hood, Cam Heyward, Timmons. There doesn't seem to be a cohesive year over year plan.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

That is what I'm getting at. Tomlin was thought to be a great coach. But the fact is, he took over a great situation with a great core group of players already in place. Now that most of those players are gone, Tomlin is starting to get exposed more and more. The Rooney's have put themselves in a tough position and when the time comes to fire Tomlin, they might not be able to do it. Todd Haley has to go right now. That is obvious. But Mike Tomlin isn't the coach we thought he was and we will now have to endure years of mediocrity.

I think Tomlin was a surprise really to many Steeler fans...his pedigree wasn't outstanding, but he's a good communicator and apparently talked up a good game to the Rooney's.

It wasn't that long ago when Mike Shanahan was considered an offensive genuious...same with Mike Holmgren...SEA & WAS gave them complete control...what did they do with their new teams that didnt have Brett Favre, John Elway, and the like? What has Belichik done w/o Brady? Heck, even with Brady lately when you talk about playoff games.

The point here I'm making here is the coach is only as good as the players in the NFL. Sometimes players go deaf on a coach after a while and it's time to bring somebody else in...Idk if that's the case in PIT yet, but I'm with everyone else...you have to win...8-8 and not making the playoffs is not the standard.

 

[SJ20]

The Cowher players thing has merit to it. He didn't draft them, but he was here before they got here and had to endure 3 pretty bad seasons in a row. Tomlin is looked at as a good coach because of his record was good early on. But he inherited a solid core group of players. A championship group of players. I laughed at those who kept saying Tomlin was great because of the Super Bowl win and this and that. I even bought into the hype early on. Now we get a chance to see if Tomlin is for real or not. And it seems as if he is all talk. Colbert was here under both coaches. Yes, Colbert has made some strange moves lately but the roster has still been good enough these past few years to have had more success. Hopefully, the Steelers turn this thing around. If not, it might be time to clean house.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

The fact that another coach came along with the same cast of players and went to 2 SB puts the shine on the players not the coach imo. Same thing in Tampa except Dungy didn't win a ring there.

If we're debating which coach was better, I think Cowher was simply because he did more with less skill @ the QB position. At the same time Cowher lost a few playoff games at home, btb losing seasons, yet he's this beloved figure.

If we're debating Cowher's players...I think you know my thoughts there.

 

[SJ20]

Cowher did have his downfalls, don't get me wrong. But he did take over a team in transition in 1992. A team that was mediocre at best year in and year out for the handful of seasons before he got there. Tomlin took over and benefited from a much better situation.

Tony Dungy deserves credit for building that team up from a laughing stock to a Super Bowl contender. It's a shame he couldn't win a ring there but he won a ring in Indy. Jon Gruden lucked out by taking over a great team and getting to play Oakland in that Super Bowl, the team he just left. Gruden and Tomlin are the same guy. Tomlin did get back to another SB but he lost it. Both took over good situations and won SB's. Hard to tell just how good of a coach either one truly is. Although Gruden did well in getting Oakland back on track before he left there. Cowher should have been better than he was but I can tell he was a good coach. Can't really tell with Tomlin yet. And yes, Cowher did do pretty well for not having a legit QB until his next to last season.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Cowher went 15-1, 11-5, 8-8 in his 3 seasons with Ben @ QB...I forget which game Maddox got hurt, but Ben started most of the games in his rookie yr, with the SB win coming in his 2nd yr. Cowher did oversee the rebuilding and he's the big reason for the resurgence of the Steelers in the free agency era.

Tomlin got to gravy train off of those players, but he was very successful until last year going 10-6 his 1st yr and the SB win the following season...now he's in the same position that Noll was in at the end...player transition.

So far...I can really point to a handful of instances where Tomlin showed that he's not a great HC...#1 the DEN playoff game...PIT clearly had superior talent but he allowed LeBeau to stick with a DEF (single high S) scheme that made the game easier for Tebow. The book on him was he couldn't read the DEF and anticipate the throwing windows...they were so concerned about him beating them running that they brought Troy down into the box, giving Tebow one less player to read. The score was close at the half, but the DEF was not really working and they stayed with it the entire game and lost...that one still burns a little.

#2...PIT already had locked up a playoff spot...yes, homefield throughout was on the line. Ben was coming off a high ankle sprain...SF, MNF was up next. Batch took all the reps in practice that week, but Ben started the game...Tomlin broke his own rule of no practice no play...Ben wasn't ready and looked terrible but he stuck with him...bottom line was he gave in to Ben and played him and he was never right the rest of the way.

The others are small, clock management, etc.

So...you're right...the jury is still on Tomlin being a great coach, because today he's not, but he's done enough for me to say he's a good coach. This year will go a long way to discern just how good.

Final thoughts on this topic...Kordell Stewart is now working sportstalk radio here in town and he has a lot of NFL players as guests on the show...one kind of regular guest is Byrant McFadden who played for both Cowher & Tomlin...he was asked about the experience...kind of surprising but he said despite Cowher's rough exterior in your face demeanor, both were player's coaches and veterans got special treatment which they both said is common in the NFL. Tomlin ran a much harder camp his 1st season...actually too hard he said. Cowher was much more hands on in practice with the ST, and every now and then would get involved with play calling games whereas Tomlin is more hands off the coaches on game day.

 

[mcro_rave_2001]

Should Colbert get some of the credit or blame for this team as well? Just saying the personnel on the Steelers isn't just a Tomlin decision.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Should Colbert get some of the credit or blame for this team as well? Just saying the personnel on the Steelers isn't just a Tomlin decision.

My thoughts all along...HC has input, but the GM picks players in PIT.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

Should Colbert get some of the credit or blame for this team as well? Just saying the personnel on the Steelers isn't just a Tomlin decision.

Yea that's what ATL has been arguing. But he should receive more of the blame than what Tomlin should. For a team that builds itself through the draft, it can't afford to "whiff" on any draft. And they definitely whiffed in '08 & '09.

 

[SJ20]

Agree with you, ATL. I remember when Tomlin kept Big Snack on the practice fields and had him running during training camp because he was overweight.

Colbert's stock is falling by the minute.

Welcome aboard to all and especially those I remember from the ESPN boards.