More damning info about Kelly.

[deerpathdave]

About money? You are kidding I hope. It cost the Eagles 13 million dollars to fire Kelly! If you are right then Howie would have to cut the payroll next year by 10 million in order to save the eagles 3.5 million dollars.
You are saying that Lurie did this whole thing in order to lower the payroll. You have twisted logic and you are in denial about Kelly!

You don't think Lurie was pissed about the Murray contract? or the Byron Maxwell contract? or the Miles Austin contract? or the Brad Jones contract? Or trading for a more expensive QB..and getting worse results? All told, Kelly spent a boat load of money...way more than the $13M he is owed...and got worse results.

But Lurie can't say that in his presser...the fans don't want to hear that this is about money or Christmas Parties, so it must be on Kelly.

 

[redseat]

also (I think ESPN) said that another tipping point was when Kelly didn't want to show up to the Eagles Christmas Party

 

[deerpathdave]

also (I think ESPN) said that another tipping point was when Kelly didn't want to show up to the Eagles Christmas Party

Yeah Lurie's version of leadership seems to have little to do about football and much more to do about schmoozing with the owner. Meanwhile Kelly's brain is all wrapped around how to make the playoffs and wants nothing to do with Schmoozing or parties. So the owner fires him...Not a very complementary view of Lurie's priorities IMO.

 

[DutchBird]

You don't think Lurie was pissed about the Murray contract? or the Byron Maxwell contract? or the Miles Austin contract? or the Brad Jones contract? Or trading for a more expensive QB..and getting worse results? All told, Kelly spent a boat load of money...way more than the $13M he is owed...and got worse results.

But Lurie can't say that in his presser...the fans don't want to hear that this is about money or Christmas Parties, so it must be on Kelly.

Dpd,

I think you have come up with a lot of valid points in the past, but based on what is coming out - or even simply looking at the way the team played on Sunday, the post-game comments by Bradford and Shurmur and just the side-line dynamics last Sunday - you could not be more wrong in this regard.

The game on Sunday was a massive indictment of Kelly the coach - far more so than Kelly the GM.

This was all Kelly, and it was completely doomed to failure. And it has a lot to do with his attitude within the organization, and towards the team. The way he treated the players was a recipe for disaster - and bound to go wrong. I have seen enough of these examples over here in Europe in the soccer competitions. It is simply not how you treat adults, many of whom have a very good idea of what they are doing.

Howie Roseman is still a massive problem, and think he is a viper within the organization - that as soon as he sees someone as a threat to his position he will do everything to get rid of the perceived threat, no matter the damage done to the organization and the team.

And as far as the Lurie comments go - even if Lurie had decided by March that Chip Kelly had to be gone, it was simply too late to do anything before the start of the season. And maybe - by some miracle - things would have gone okay. Lurie could not say something different, just as a coach cannot disparage a scrub on the team in public - it is a recipe for losing the locker room. When Lurie is gone, then you can say things... if Lurie was lying, then it seems it was lying in an attempt to stay nice towards Kelly.

 

[deerpathdave]

Dpd,

I think you have come up with a lot of valid points in the past, but based on what is coming out - or even simply looking at the way the team played on Sunday, the post-game comments by Bradford and Shurmur and just the side-line dynamics last Sunday - you could not be more wrong in this regard.

The game on Sunday was a massive indictment of Kelly the coach - far more so than Kelly the GM.

This was all Kelly, and it was completely doomed to failure. And it has a lot to do with his attitude within the organization, and towards the team. The way he treated the players was a recipe for disaster - and bound to go wrong. I have seen enough of these examples over here in Europe in the soccer competitions. It is simply not how you treat adults, many of whom have a very good idea of what they are doing.

Howie Roseman is still a massive problem, and think he is a viper within the organization - that as soon as he sees someone as a threat to his position he will do everything to get rid of the perceived threat, no matter the damage done to the organization and the team.

And as far as the Lurie comments go - even if Lurie had decided by March that Chip Kelly had to be gone, it was simply too late to do anything before the start of the season. And maybe - by some miracle - things would have gone okay. Lurie could not say something different, just as a coach cannot disparage a scrub on the team in public - it is a recipe for losing the locker room. When Lurie is gone, then you can say things... if Lurie was lying, then it seems it was lying in an attempt to stay nice towards Kelly.

I found better things to do yesterday than watch football, but I really don't buy that this game was a massive indictment on Kelly. As I understand it, they gave up 30 points and over 400 yards for a record 5 or 6 times in a row. If not for a great game by the players Kelly acquired on offense this was going to be another loss.

People seem to think this was a total collapse of a football team this year. At the end of the day they were one game away from being NFC East Champs and they lost two games because of their Kicker's torn groin and 3 more because of their backup QB. Not to mention poor poor play from an obviously hobbled Jason Peters.

Yet we decide to throw away this work in progress because of an ff'ing Christmas Party? I get that Kelly is not Mr. Sociable, but I kind of like that he was more focused on football than scmoozing with owner or going to a Christmas Party. Kelly is all Football all the time and could care less about parties or whatnot. That is what you want in a coach.

 

[RobBase]

Like Jim Harbaugh, Chip Kelly is enemy no.1 to the "old boys club" in the NFL. How DARE these hot shit college coaches come in an win immediately when washed up dinosaurs like Jeff Fisher have been around forever and can't break. 500? How DARE guys like CK take jobs from re-tread failures like Mike Shannahan? How dare successful college coaches take jobs from all the unqualified assistant buddies looking for HC jobs? Get em out of the NFL before they threaten and intimidate anymore of the grouches in the "old boys club".

 

[DutchBird]

I found better things to do yesterday than watch football, but I really don't buy that this game was a massive indictment on Kelly. As I understand it, they gave up 30 points and over 400 yards for a record 5 or 6 times in a row. If not for a great game by the players Kelly acquired on offense this was going to be another loss.

Well, your choice.

People seem to think this was a total collapse of a football team this year. At the end of the day they were one game away from being NFC East Champs and they lost two games because of their Kicker's torn groin and 3 more because of their backup QB. Not to mention poor poor play from an obviously hobbled Jason Peters.

I have coached teams, I have been on teams and I have seen many sports teams before and after a disastrous coach - or simply where there was a disconnect between players and coach - was let go/resigned/was fired, and where that change completely changed the way the team looked. And this team - the Eagles - looked exactly like such a team.

Yes, the defense gave up, but especially on offense, the whole team looked completely different.

Yet we decide to throw away this work in progress because of an ff'ing Christmas Party? I get that Kelly is not Mr. Sociable, but I kind of like that he was more focused on football than scmoozing with owner or going to a Christmas Party. Kelly is all Football all the time and could care less about parties or whatnot. That is what you want in a coach.

You have completely missed the point of what seems to have gone wrong with the regime. The Christmas party is symptomatic however of what seems to have made the Chip Kelly regime a disaster. As Brian Westbrook (IIRC) this morning stated - there were two events organized by Lurie where as a team you were supposed to show up: the summer cooking thing and the Christmas party. Hell, under Andy they had the Christmas party two days before the game (!). Showing up is the thing to do, you do not have to stay until the end.

Kelly's problem is that he is all football. A good coach knows how to manage people to get the most out of them. A good coach knows how to work together with others - without retaliation when criticism comes. That is how you get the best out of people. And it is the smaller things that make someone successful in that regard.

The fact that so many people do not realize this - especially in management positions - is why so many managers completely suck.

Hell, if a teacher tried to pull (it seems) what Kelly tried to pull in high school, he would be a disastrous teacher, and turn every single class into an enemy.

O yeah, and Kelly did some good things (for instance the sports science stuff), and it would be a waste to have that thrown out.

 

[eaglesnut]

Sorry don't buy it. Lurie decided to go all in on Kelly and only four months ago is out there talking about a what a fine caring coach he is..and you say he was giving him a pep talk? I find it much more likely he is lieing on December 30 than on September 11.

Lurie gave him enough rope to succeed the way Chip wanted to or to hang himself. He hung himself. Why would he lie on December 30? Jeff was being hopeful on Sep 11, believing that Chip's way could be right, that's all. Then he watched the season.

 

[eaglesnut]

Well one way or another the Eagles are back to square one at QB. If they keep Kelly, they can sell Bradford on the opportunity to return to the same system and build on it. Its reasonable to think that Bradford would be at least as good as the 2nd half of the season Bradford we say this year. You know the one that posted a 90+ QB rating in 6 of the last 7 games.

Now there is no reason for Bradford to stay here, and even if he does he will be learning a brand new system along with all the other starters and we can expect all the same growing pains or more that we saw earlier this season.

Maybe the next coach is just fine, but remember that now you have to find a QB as well.

Sam will be better in any system next year than he was at the beginning of the season this year. He was still recovering from knee surgery and getting his confidence back. He gets to go into this offseason healthy. Such a load off his mind. And it lets him play freer with a clearer head.

I'd like Bradford back too, but if they can't keep him so be it. The Eagles get the last say because they have the tag anyway.

 

[eaglesnut]

Well how about being a little more forthright rather than this character assassination that is being fed to the press and you guys seems to be gobbling up happily? Lurie seems to have evolved into another self absorbed billionaire that didn't get his way on the Christmas party and didn't have the same access and control that he had with Howie, so he threw a fit and fired the guy.

Well that's one way to entirely misread the situation I guess. You tend to be functionally adept at doing just that. Hang onto a Christmas story if you must, but all signs point to Chip not being worth the headache from Lurie's perspective. So much so that he's still paying him a good bit of money to NOT be here.

 

[eaglesnut]

You don't think Lurie was pissed about the Murray contract? or the Byron Maxwell contract? or the Miles Austin contract? or the Brad Jones contract? Or trading for a more expensive QB..and getting worse results? All told, Kelly spent a boat load of money...way more than the $13M he is owed...and got worse results.

Wasting money on some players is the cost of doing business. This isn't Lurie's first time going through that. Lurie was probably hopeful he would have a great running game with a running back that Kelly picked himself instead of one that he was given (and who was going to hold a bunch of Eagles all time records before his career was over here). Chip evaporated all the goodwill that was within the organization. Zapped it.

 

[eaglesnut]

I found better things to do yesterday than watch football, but I really don't buy that this game was a massive indictment on Kelly. As I understand it, they gave up 30 points and over 400 yards for a record 5 or 6 times in a row. If not for a great game by the players Kelly acquired on offense this was going to be another loss.

People seem to think this was a total collapse of a football team this year. At the end of the day they were one game away from being NFC East Champs and they lost two games because of their Kicker's torn groin and 3 more because of their backup QB. Not to mention poor poor play from an obviously hobbled Jason Peters.

Yet we decide to throw away this work in progress because of an ff'ing Christmas Party? I get that Kelly is not Mr. Sociable, but I kind of like that he was more focused on football than scmoozing with owner or going to a Christmas Party. Kelly is all Football all the time and could care less about parties or whatnot. That is what you want in a coach.

Peters was a beast on Sunday. Demarco ran for a 54 yard touchdown with the QB under center. Chip's WR prize, Jordan Mathews, failed to reach 1000 yards on the season because of brutal, embarrassing, "children could have caught it" kind of drops. Sam Bradford audibled successfully multiple times and in the redzone as well. They didn't exhaust the defense and the defense was able to make big plays in the end. You didn't watch it so you have no idea that the team played with more energy. More energy than the Giants who may have been saying goodbye to their 12 year two time Super Bowl winning coach. A Christmas party? Please shut the fuck up, you've mentioned this irrelevant party in all of your posts.

 

[RobBase]

Peters was a beast on Sunday. Demarco ran for a 54 yard touchdown with the QB under center. Chip's WR prize, Jordan Mathews, failed to reach 1000 yards on the season because of brutal, embarrassing, "children could have caught it" kind of drops. Sam Bradford audibled successfully multiple times and in the redzone as well. They didn't exhaust the defense and the defense was able to make big plays in the end. You didn't watch it so you have no idea that the team played with more energy. More energy than the Giants who may have been saying goodbye to their 12 year two time Super Bowl winning coach. A Christmas party? Please shut the fuck up, you've mentioned this irrelevant party in all of your posts.

Good luck winning 27 games over the next three seasons w your next HC. Prob ain't happening.

 

[eaglesnut]

Good luck winning 27 games over the next three seasons w your next HC. Prob ain't happening.

Playoff loss > miss the playoffs > 6 wins before getting fired, is going in the wrong direction. Chip won more with Shady McCoy and Jeremy Maclin or Desean Jackson than he won without them. He has no one to blame for those guys not being here, but his own stubborn self. Meanwhile the coach that he replaced, and gave him those talented teams early in his tenure, hasn't lost since October - 10 wins in a row.

 

[DutchBird]

Good luck winning 27 games over the next three seasons w your next HC. Prob ain't happening.

Who knows...

Simply based on how the team looked yesterday, as well as observations of the past and comments by various players, it was Chip who cost the team the season. Chip dumping McCoy and Mathis, while not matching Maclin's offer... massive mistakes; and based on some comments done almost out of spite (especially McCoy and Mathis).

Chip's methods have a whole lot to do - it seems - with the collapse of the team late in the season (the offense and defesne) as well as the complete ineffectiveness of the offense the past two seasons.

Put it this way: by adjusting protection schemes somewhat, slowing things down and audibling - while still using the same plays - the offense looked the best it has looked all season. Note that these were three things Chip categorically refused to do.

Chip ran an offense of which - for two seasons now - opponents said (confirmed by Eagles players) that they pretty much knew which plays were being run the majority of the time. One of the Card defenders came out that if one survived the first 10-15 plays you knew exactly what Chip would be running the rest of the game, and the game was won.

 

[RobBase]

Who knows...

Simply based on how the team looked yesterday, as well as observations of the past and comments by various players, it was Chip who cost the team the season. Chip dumping McCoy and Mathis, while not matching Maclin's offer... massive mistakes; and based on some comments done almost out of spite (especially McCoy and Mathis).

Chip's methods have a whole lot to do - it seems - with the collapse of the team late in the season (the offense and defesne) as well as the complete ineffectiveness of the offense the past two seasons.

Put it this way: by adjusting protection schemes somewhat, slowing things down and audibling - while still using the same plays - the offense looked the best it has looked all season. Note that these were three things Chip categorically refused to do.

Chip ran an offense of which - for two seasons now - opponents said (confirmed by Eagles players) that they pretty much knew which plays were being run the majority of the time. One of the Card defenders came out that if one survived the first 10-15 plays you knew exactly what Chip would be running the rest of the game, and the game was won.

I'm still impressed he turned your 4 win team into a playoff team in one year. Lions fans would KILL for back to back 10 win seasons. Like great college players, I'm sure CK would evolve and improve in time. The level of expectations in Philly are obviously a lot higher than in other cities.

 

[RobBase]

Playoff loss > miss the playoffs > 6 wins before getting fired, is going in the wrong direction. Chip won more with Shady McCoy and Jeremy Maclin or Desean Jackson than he won without them. He has no one to blame for those guys not being here, but his own stubborn self. Meanwhile the coach that he replaced, and gave him those talented teams early in his tenure, hasn't lost since October - 10 wins in a row.

Isn't that more your owners fault?

 

[deerpathdave]

A Christmas party? Please shut the fuck up, you've mentioned this irrelevant party in all of your posts.

I didn't bring up the Christmas Party. It was brought up by others as the "Damning evidence" against Chip Kelly. I agree it is irrelevant or should be. Others seem to think that proper attendance at Christmas Parties is necessary to be a good football coach and show those "Leadership" and "Social Skills" that are so necessary. {I bet Belicheck is a blast at social functions.)

I just can't believe how quickly people around here seem to be to buy into the company line here? I have been accused for years of secretly being Dave Spadaro for my support of the Eagles Organization, and yet I am hugely skeptical of what I am hearing here. As Peter King stated, can that much really have changed over the last few months? Did Chip suddenly install a Dungeon after being described in September as a players coach by the team's owner?

Perhaps Lurie did the right thing? Who knows. I view this as a step back for the organization either way. Either Lurie screwed up now or screwed up a couple of years ago and just cut his losses. Not good either way.

I still think that it will be telling if Kelly has job offers or not. There are three possible outcomes here.

(1) Kelly is Jon Gruden. A good football coach but a horrible person and will be essentially blackballed from the league. or
(2) Kelly is Bill Belicheck. A good coach, that given a second chance could prove to be a great coach with the right support and players. or
(3) Kelly is Steve Spurrier. Simply better in College than the pros.

We can all speculate, but really won't know until we see what happens next.

 

[DutchBird]

I'm still impressed he turned your 4 win team into a playoff team in one year. Lions fans would KILL for back to back 10 win seasons. Like great college players, I'm sure CK would evolve and improve in time. The level of expectations in Philly are obviously a lot higher than in other cities.

He succeeded for a few reasons:

- There was talent on the team (especially on offense); the defense the season before had been atrocious, there had been injuries, and the team had tuned Andy Reid out. Also, Andy Reid probably was not in it, mostly due to his private life being a mess (IIRC his son died of a drug overdose over the summer). Also, the disastrous 2010 and 2011 draft (for which Roseman and Reid were responsible) had not yet caught up with the team.

- The defense was disastrous in 2012, it could not have been worse. The new look defense was somewhat better.

- The new scheme and speed; the rest of the teams in the league had not yet caught up completely.

- Players were motivated, something new and exciting.

- The scedule was very favourable to them.

- The O-line was healthy, peaked and was probably the best in the league that season.



Over the past seasons the following has been clear:

- He has gotten rid of too much talent, and indication is that it had more to do with them goose-stepping in line with Chip's ideas.

- Already by the end of the 2013 season, one could see the offense going stale and being figured out.

- O-line luck ran out; age caught up, injuries did, and complete lack of depth showed. Kelly has not brought in a single quality (or mediocre) O-lineman since drafting Lane Johnson in 2013.

- His plays and system had been figured out.

- The play of special teams and the defense early on in the season massively distorted the outcome of the games. The offense was completely atrocious. The Eagles were a 6-10 team or worse, not a 10-6 team if you watched the Eagles actually play. Two illustrations: something like 5 games into the season the Eagles had already returned an INT, a fumble, blocked punt, KO return and punt-return for a TD. IIRC at one point they had as many return TD's (punt, kick, INT, fumble) as the majority if not the whole of the league combined. It was the defense and ST that won them the Jacksonville, Washington and Indianapolis game, where the offense did everything they could to lose. Codey Parkey being pretty good helped as well. Everybody talked about how the Eagles won the Patriots game this season by non-offense TD's... well, the pretty much did so in multiple games last season (the return stat in that game shown, the Eagles had a game like that last season as well).

- By the end of the season the team was simply gassed, the defense completely worn out - and too worn out to cover for the offense. This happened in 2014, and clearly happened this season as well. You could probably argue the same happened in 2013.

- Kelly's people skills apparently - clearly - leave a whole lot to be desired, and are simply disastrous. One rumour has it that somewhere by the end of the year a massive part of the Eagles staff threatened to walk out if Lurie decided to keep Kelly. Apparently one former Eagles player (could be Mathis, Herremans, Vandevelde or Austin (the statement suggested O-line though) said Kelly never had the locker room, and that there were quite a few players who had decided to simply play out the contract.

- Rumour now has it that Frank Gore - who by all accounts pretty much had signed with the Eagles, the Eagles had actually been preparing the press conference and might already have sent out the press release - at the last moment was contacted by someone (some fingers point at McCoy) who told him about the atmosphere in the locker room and how Kelly behaved, at which point Gore bolted and immediately signed with Indianapolis.

- Very few if any of the traded/released players (McCoy, Boykin, Jackson, Mathis, Cole) had something positive to say about Kelly. Even now, there has been no ringing endorsement of Kelly by any player. Something - as pointed out by Jeremiah Trotter on Sunday - that was simply unknown with Andy Reid.

I just heared Whycheck on radio talk about why Kelly has not been invited by Tennessee; his impression: he is considered toxic as far as interpersonal skills go, and his scheme a QB killer - the grapevine within the league (players and coaches talking to each other) have caught up. Compared him to Billick, who is out of the league due to his interpersinal skills (or lack thereof).

It is telling that Tennessee has not reached out, and by all accounts it has been Kelly reaching out to San Francisco and not the other way round.

 

[RobBase]

He succeeded for a few reasons:

- There was talent on the team (especially on offense); the defense the season before had been atrocious, there had been injuries, and the team had tuned Andy Reid out. Also, Andy Reid probably was not in it, mostly due to his private life being a mess (IIRC his son died of a drug overdose over the summer). Also, the disastrous 2010 and 2011 draft (for which Roseman and Reid were responsible) had not yet caught up with the team.

- The defense was disastrous in 2012, it could not have been worse. The new look defense was somewhat better.

- The new scheme and speed; the rest of the teams in the league had not yet caught up completely.

- Players were motivated, something new and exciting.

- The scedule was very favourable to them.

- The O-line was healthy, peaked and was probably the best in the league that season.



Over the past seasons the following has been clear:

- He has gotten rid of too much talent, and indication is that it had more to do with them goose-stepping in line with Chip's ideas.

- Already by the end of the 2013 season, one could see the offense going stale and being figured out.

- O-line luck ran out; age caught up, injuries did, and complete lack of depth showed. Kelly has not brought in a single quality (or mediocre) O-lineman since drafting Lane Johnson in 2013.

- His plays and system had been figured out.

- The play of special teams and the defense early on in the season massively distorted the outcome of the games. The offense was completely atrocious. The Eagles were a 6-10 team or worse, not a 10-6 team if you watched the Eagles actually play. Two illustrations: something like 5 games into the season the Eagles had already returned an INT, a fumble, blocked punt, KO return and punt-return for a TD. IIRC at one point they had as many return TD's (punt, kick, INT, fumble) as the majority if not the whole of the league combined. It was the defense and ST that won them the Jacksonville, Washington and Indianapolis game, where the offense did everything they could to lose. Codey Parkey being pretty good helped as well. Everybody talked about how the Eagles won the Patriots game this season by non-offense TD's... well, the pretty much did so in multiple games last season (the return stat in that game shown, the Eagles had a game like that last season as well).

- By the end of the season the team was simply gassed, the defense completely worn out - and too worn out to cover for the offense. This happened in 2014, and clearly happened this season as well. You could probably argue the same happened in 2013.

- Kelly's people skills apparently - clearly - leave a whole lot to be desired, and are simply disastrous. One rumour has it that somewhere by the end of the year a massive part of the Eagles staff threatened to walk out if Lurie decided to keep Kelly. Apparently one former Eagles player (could be Mathis, Herremans, Vandevelde or Austin (the statement suggested O-line though) said Kelly never had the locker room, and that there were quite a few players who had decided to simply play out the contract.

- Rumour now has it that Frank Gore - who by all accounts pretty much had signed with the Eagles, the Eagles had actually been preparing the press conference and might already have sent out the press release - at the last moment was contacted by someone (some fingers point at McCoy) who told him about the atmosphere in the locker room and how Kelly behaved, at which point Gore bolted and immediately signed with Indianapolis.

- Very few if any of the traded/released players (McCoy, Boykin, Jackson, Mathis, Cole) had something positive to say about Kelly. Even now, there has been no ringing endorsement of Kelly by any player. Something - as pointed out by Jeremiah Trotter on Sunday - that was simply unknown with Andy Reid.

I just heared Whycheck on radio talk about why Kelly has not been invited by Tennessee; his impression: he is considered toxic as far as interpersonal skills go, and his scheme a QB killer - the grapevine within the league (players and coaches talking to each other) have caught up. Compared him to Billick, who is out of the league due to his interpersinal skills (or lack thereof).

It is telling that Tennessee has not reached out, and by all accounts it has been Kelly reaching out to San Francisco and not the other way round.

Wow nice post. Very passionate. On a related note I once kicked the shit out of Frank Whycheck. So fuck him.