Michael Crabtree

[Crimsoncrew]

Yes, I like the 'winning it' phrase...I would 100% agree all of our WR's are weak in that category

When it comes to tight window throws, Smith seems to be a bit of an enigma. We have all seen him hit, with Montana like precision, tight windows The pass to Delanie vs. TB, the two throws to Vernon vs. NO - especially the final TD throw and many others.

But, sometimes he just doesn't pull the trigger. Is it because of who is on the receiving end of those tight windows? Is he over thinking it? Is it a lack of confidence in himself at that particular moment - why the lack of consistency for doing what he clearly has shown he can do?

I don't get it...

I don't know about this. Yes, we've seen him do it, but any NFL caliber QB can stick a throw into tight windows from time to time. The question is if he can do it regularly, and I just don't know if Smith can. For every time he's thrown into a tight space, he's underthrown, overthrown, or thrown behind his receiver at least once.

I think to some extent the injury disrupted Smith's mechanics, leading him to throw high in particular with more regularity. It may also have left him slightly uncomfortable in the pocket. It's hard for me to say the reason, but we don't see Smith make those tight throws nearly as often as the really good QBs do.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Because of Crabtree, not Morgan. Just playin'.

How much truth, if any, do you feel is in that statement?

I know it wasn't posed to me, and I'd just as soon let the Morgan vs. Crabtree discussion die, but I would say there is not much truth to it. Smith hasn't shown much willingness to throw to Morgan in tight spaces, either. That's part of why Morgan's targets are relatively low IMO.

And for the record, I'm not considering a slant to necessarily be a throw in a tight space if the receiver gains the inside. Obvoiusly it would depend on the particular play, but the run-of-the-mill slant would not necessarily require a precision throw. And, indeed, I think Smith regularly throws that pass a little higher than he should.

 

[MW49ers5]

I don't know about this. Yes, we've seen him do it, but any NFL caliber QB can stick a throw into tight windows from time to time. The question is if he can do it regularly, and I just don't know if Smith can. For every time he's thrown into a tight space, he's underthrown, overthrown, or thrown behind his receiver at least once.

I think to some extent the injury disrupted Smith's mechanics, leading him to throw high in particular with more regularity. It may also have left him slightly uncomfortable in the pocket. It's hard for me to say the reason, but we don't see Smith make those tight throws nearly as often as the really good QBs do.

Below is the second paragraph of my post where I addressed the consistency issue you mention above.

"But, sometimes he just doesn't pull the trigger. Is it because of who is on the receiving end of those tight windows? Is he over thinking it? Is it a lack of confidence in himself at that particular moment - why the lack of consistency for doing what he clearly has shown he can do?"

I don't believe Smith's injuries have anything to do with anything - I say this because Smith is hands down a better QB today then he was in '07...

 

[Crimsoncrew]

True. Even when people praise him, they need to bring in the fire extinguisher. He played great, for him. He fits this system pretty well, just can't wait to find the franchise QB.

I have no problem with doubts on Alex Smith. Heck, even I have them. It's the fact that even when everyone knows one's position on Smith (and everyone has a position), people find the need to let everyone know that they haven't gone full in when praising his performance. It's like, man, we know; it's ok. It's alright to be happy for Smith after the Saints game. We know you weren't saying Montana.

People came in full force on some message boards defending Williams after the fumbles. I know, I know, Smith had the ball more than Williams. Smith didn't do enough. But I wouldn't be surprised if the defense of Williams came before the criticism of Williams. But that's how it goes. Smith got the first credit for the Saints game, before Geep Chryst, about the same time as Davis, and I didn't see anyone mention the OL. They held long enough for Smith not to panic and turn safe on us. So it comes with the territory.

As someone who both defended Williams and criticized Smith, I'd like to clarify the position.

Re: Williams, there is no real defense for his play in this game. I question why he was still returning kicks after he dropped the toss on the reverse, dove for a punt (not to mention fielding that grounder against NO), and then inexplicably let the ball hit him after it was rolling on a PR. But getting hit in the knee by that ball was absolutely inexcusable. It's a HS-level mistake. In a game like that, with the defenses dominating on both sides, you just can't risk it. We are built to win a field position battle - so long as we don't make stupid mistakes. The fumble in OT was a tougher one. The irony of that play is that it happened because he was holding the ball with both hands, probably because of the earlier muff. When one hand was separated by a blow to his shoulder, the ball popped out. Still inexcusable, but more understandable, I suppose.

I defended Williams in the sense that I don't think we should cut him or trade him. Hell, I might even give him another chance at return duties at some point, though probably not next year. But there's no doubt that he was the single biggest reason for the loss. Even the fumble on the reverse was fairly devastating as we really had some momentum at that point, and that play lost it for us. Again, I question the call there when our standard offense seemed to be working pretty well, but re-watching that play, it looked like the toss was fine and he should have brought it in.

As for Smith, he's not to blame for the loss, but he didn't make the plays we needed him to to win it. He relied on the D and STs, and those units - well, the STs - let him down. That's the problem with relying on D and STs, though. If you win that way, no problem. If you lose that way, you will face criticism. And rightly so, IMO.

After the second TD to Davis, Smith did nothing. We tied it up on a drive in which he didn't throw a meaningful pass - granted he had a good scramble to get us in close FG range. And after that, he went 1 of 5 for three yards with two sacks to end regulation (I'm not counting the final play of regulation, which was obviously a failed play despite a decent yardage gain), and 0 for 3 in OT. Worse than the numbers were the plays themselves. We didn't come close. I can't recall a single catchable ball in that sequence. Now, I didn't care for the playcalling at all in that span and for much of the second half, but we asked our QB to make a play, and he stepped up to the tune of -0.8 yards per passing play. I think that sort of play prevented us from winning, even though it didn't necessarily cost us the game.

Smith paired a great game with a pretty poor game in the playoffs, and I think he's shown that he deserves another crack at the starting job. But in sum, this was a bad game for him. He needs to be able to make plays to guys who aren't physical freaks (Davis) who can get three yards of separation. As delusional as Crabtree is about his own performance, he's right that guys don't get wide open in the NFL.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't know about this. Yes, we've seen him do it, but any NFL caliber QB can stick a throw into tight windows from time to time. The question is if he can do it regularly, and I just don't know if Smith can. For every time he's thrown into a tight space, he's underthrown, overthrown, or thrown behind his receiver at least once.

I think to some extent the injury disrupted Smith's mechanics, leading him to throw high in particular with more regularity. It may also have left him slightly uncomfortable in the pocket. It's hard for me to say the reason, but we don't see Smith make those tight throws nearly as often as the really good QBs do.

I meant to add in here that we've seen Crabtree win a ball thrown into a tight spot or put up for grabs - especially during the span when Troy Smith was at QB - the problem is he just doesn't do it often enough. That's why I would equate Smith and Crabtree to some degree in terms of performance. Both can make plays, but both are wildly inconsistent.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Below is the second paragraph of my post where I addressed the consistency issue you mention above.



I don't believe Smith's injuries have anything to do with anything - I say this because Smith is hands down a better QB today then he was in '07...

No doubt Smith is the better QB now. And it may be that I'm giving him more credit for accuracy before the injury than he deserves. I thought he was playing quite well prior to the injury in '07, but that's a fairly small sample size. I honestly can't recall how his accuracy looked at the end of '06.

 

[MW49ers5]

I know it wasn't posed to me, and I'd just as soon let the Morgan vs. Crabtree discussion die, but I would say there is not much truth to it. Smith hasn't shown much willingness to throw to Morgan in tight spaces, either. That's part of why Morgan's targets are relatively low IMO.

And for the record, I'm not considering a slant to necessarily be a throw in a tight space if the receiver gains the inside. Obvoiusly it would depend on the particular play, but the run-of-the-mill slant would not necessarily require a precision throw. And, indeed, I think Smith regularly throws that pass a little higher than he should.

"Smith hasn't shown much willingness to throw to Morgan in tight spaces, either. That's part of why Morgan's targets are relatively low IMO."

Crimson, have you lost your mind? You have already stated the following:

"...admittedly I don't recall many specific plays from the fifth game and earlier..."

And yet you now want us all to believe that you recall Morgan's targets in 2011 or perhaps in 2010 in such granular detail that you have seen Smith's overwhelming trepidation to throw to Morgan in tight windows; again, a WR for whom you don't recall many specific plays at all.

You are wrong about Smith to Morgan and about the slant passes as well. Look, Crimson, you clearly do not know what you are talking about so why keep talking about it - follow your own advice and just let it go.

 

[MW49ers5]

I meant to add in here that we've seen Crabtree win a ball thrown into a tight spot or put up for grabs - especially during the span when Troy Smith was at QB - the problem is he just doesn't do it often enough. That's why I would equate Smith and Crabtree to some degree in terms of performance. Both can make plays, but both are wildly inconsistent.

Crimson, here is yet another example of you making a claim that is just blatantly false. Crabtree did not catch a single challenged pass from T.Smith - Not one!

This year, the only pass I can think of where Crabtree caught the ball that was challenged was the pass where he hopped out of bounds vs. Detroit. If there were others they are too few to go searching for them.

As for your wildly inconsistent comment, I think Smith is a better QB with Bowe & Morgan than Crabtree would be a better receiver with another QB. In other words, I think Crabtree is more to much more inconsistent than Smith.

 

[MW49ers5]

ya notice what position those guys play. that's why we needed a healthy braylon this year. and why we absolutely needed to make a run at lloyd or even owens.

whether or not you believe smith can deliver, crabtree and williams failed horribly. all the attention was switched to vernon after his td, so that should have opened up our wr's, yet it didn't. i'll give them a slight benefit of the doubt when it comes to playcalling, but the giants didn't respect our wr's ability to beat them deep. the timing on deep throws with the field conditions were tough.

where were the double moves? where were the crossing routes? where were the screens that crabtree is capable of breaking like we seen against the rams?

I agree our roster strategy surrounding WR's seemed a bit reckless, but I think there were some calculated risks (Ginn returning, Swain & Hastings being more productive) that didn't pan out. Even with our deficiency at WR we still could have beat NY.

As for Smith or Crabtree delivering, I don't know; but, if I had to pick one over the other I'm taking Smith 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

"Smith hasn't shown much willingness to throw to Morgan in tight spaces, either. That's part of why Morgan's targets are relatively low IMO."

Crimson, have you lost your mind? You have already stated the following:

"...admittedly I don't recall many specific plays from the fifth game and earlier..."

And yet you now want us all to believe that you recall Morgan's targets in 2011 or perhaps in 2010 in such granular detail that you have seen Smith's overwhelming trepidation to throw to Morgan in tight windows; again, a WR for whom you don't recall many specific plays at all.

You are wrong about Smith to Morgan and about the slant passes as well. Look, Crimson, you clearly do not know what you are talking about so why keep talking about it - follow your own advice and just let it go.

And we were doing so well with civility for an entire day.

You tell me, then: which of Morgan's balls this year were tightly contested?

 

[MW49ers5]

And we were doing so well with civility for an entire day.

You tell me, then: which of Morgan's balls this year were tightly contested?

Perhaps I am taking some liberties with the definition of civility, but I do not think making a bunch of BS claims is very civil, Crimson...

 

[Flyingiguana]

I agree our roster strategy surrounding WR's seemed a bit reckless, but I think there were some calculated risks (Ginn returning, Swain & Hastings being more productive) that didn't pan out. Even with our deficiency at WR we still could have beat NY.

As for Smith or Crabtree delivering, I don't know; but, if I had to pick one over the other I'm taking Smith 10 out of 10 times.

it was pretty obvious we didn't have the talent at wr to have a productive passing offense. i'm wondering how much of that was a factor in how roman called plays.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Crimson, here is yet another example of you making a claim that is just blatantly false. Crabtree did not catch a single challenged pass from T.Smith - Not one!

This year, the only pass I can think of where Crabtree caught the ball that was challenged was the pass where he hopped out of bounds vs. Detroit. If there were others they are too few to go searching for them.

As for your wildly inconsistent comment, I think Smith is a better QB with Bowe & Morgan than Crabtree would be a better receiver with another QB. In other words, I think Crabtree is more to much more inconsistent than Smith.

I disagree re: Crabtree vs. Smith, though in large part that's because of the impact I think a QB has on a WR is greater than that which a WR has on a QB. Put Crabtree out there with a pro bowl QB, and I think we see top-20 numbers out of him.

As for Troy Smith, perhaps contested was a poor choice of words, but here are a couple balls he caught in relatively tight coverage that Alex probably would not have thrown:

NFL Videos: QB Smith to WR Crabtree, 38-yd, pass, TD

NFL Videos: WK 10 Can't-Miss Play: What a crab!

Crabtree has shown he can make the tough grab at times. His bigger problem is dropping the easy ones IMO.

 

[MW49ers5]

it was pretty obvious we didn't have the talent at wr to have a productive passing offense. i'm wondering how much of that was a factor in how roman called plays.

My guess - Huge!

 

[Flyingiguana]

My guess - Huge!

that's what i'm hoping. but part of me thinks roman = knapp

 

[MW49ers5]

I disagree re: Crabtree vs. Smith, though in large part that's because of the impact I think a QB has on a WR is greater than that which a WR has on a QB. Put Crabtree out there with a pro bowl QB, and I think we see top-20 numbers out of him.

As for Troy Smith, perhaps contested was a poor choice of words, but here are a couple balls he caught in relatively tight coverage that Alex probably would not have thrown:

NFL Videos: QB Smith to WR Crabtree, 38-yd, pass, TD

NFL Videos: WK 10 Can't-Miss Play: What a crab!

Crabtree has shown he can make the tough grab at times. His bigger problem is dropping the easy ones IMO.

Smith easily makes both of those throws and more difficult ones at that...Look, Crimson, you may see, what, maybe 4-6 games a year - so please, just stop with the BS.

FWIW, and IMO, Smith would look better with a better receiver than Crabtree would with a better QB. Plus, I think most of Crabtree's weaknesses (slow, inconsistent routes, undependable hands, inability to shield defenders, inability to get separation, etc) are not QB related.

Crabtree doesn't need a better QB he needs a perfect QB - and those do not exist. All elite QB's have top notch, elite WR's because those WR's make plays on imperfect passes - all the time.

 

[MW49ers5]

that's what i'm hoping. but part of me thinks roman = knapp

Well, the first time we played the Giants 8 different receivers caught passes with 50% of Smith's targets going to a WR. This time just four receivers caught passes with 34.6% of those targets going to a WR on five more total plays.

I think both Roman & Harbaugh know we need a more potent offense and I think they try to incorporate those things next year. - at least, I hope...

 

[deep9er]

it was pretty obvious we didn't have the talent at wr to have a productive passing offense. i'm wondering how much of that was a factor in how roman called plays.

certainly a factor, an O.C. has to lean to the strengths of his Unit. my GUESS is he occassionally went to WR's to "keep the defense honest". :-0

 

[deep9er]

that's what i'm hoping. but part of me thinks roman = knapp

will have to disagree, considering he didn't have quality WR play, he mixed it up pretty well. put yourself in his shoes, i'd think its pretty hard to call plays knowing your WR's can't get open, your QB needs OPEN receivers, and your line can't hold.

granted the line got better at the end, but you got the gist. towards the end of the season, wasn't he moving away from the run?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Smith easily makes both of those throws and more difficult ones at that...Look, Crimson, you may see, what, maybe 4-6 games a year - so please, just stop with the BS.

FWIW, and IMO, Smith would look better with a better receiver than Crabtree would with a better QB. Plus, I think most of Crabtree's weaknesses (slow, inconsistent routes, undependable hands, inability to shield defenders, inability to get separation, etc) are not QB related.

Crabtree doesn't need a better QB he needs a perfect QB - and those do not exist. All elite QB's have top notch, elite WR's because those WR's make plays on imperfect passes - all the time.

See, now you're back to lying again. I've taken part in more than 4-6 game-day threads that you were also involved in, and made ample comments in all of them that make it clear I'm watching the game in real-time.

Integrity goes a long way on this board, and in general. I'm sorry to see once again that you have so little of it.