Michael Crabtree

[Crimsoncrew]

Look, in the course of that game, Manning repeatedly hit guys who were "covered." Cruz caught several balls with Rogers or a safety, or both, on top of him. Manningham's TD was squeezed into a very small window. Those are the plays that elite passers make. Smith had a couple - literally two or three - nice throws, but with the possible exception of Davis' second TD where there was a somewhat tight window, Smith was throwing to guys who were "open," as in, they had two or more yards on the nearest defender.

Crabtree is a bit of a dick for saying it, but he's not wrong when he observes that there is rarely such thing as "open" in this league. A QB has to be able to hit a receiver who only had half a step on the defender, or is only "open" because of his body positioning. And there's a reasonable argument that Crabtree doesn't deserve that sort of trust. But Smith rarely makes these types of throws. If we're shifting our definition of "open" to account for Smith being comfortable throwing it, well, not many receiving corps will have guys who regularly get open.

 

[MW49ers5]

Look, in the course of that game, Manning repeatedly hit guys who were "covered." Cruz caught several balls with Rogers or a safety, or both, on top of him. Manningham's TD was squeezed into a very small window. Those are the plays that elite passers make. Smith had a couple - literally two or three - nice throws, but with the possible exception of Davis' second TD where there was a somewhat tight window, Smith was throwing to guys who were "open," as in, they had two or more yards on the nearest defender.

Crabtree is a bit of a dick for saying it, but he's not wrong when he observes that there is rarely such thing as "open" in this league. A QB has to be able to hit a receiver who only had half a step on the defender, or is only "open" because of his body positioning. And there's a reasonable argument that Crabtree doesn't deserve that sort of trust. But Smith rarely makes these types of throws. If we're shifting our definition of "open" to account for Smith being comfortable throwing it, well, not many receiving corps will have guys who regularly get open.

I don't want to get into the middle of this discussion as it seems you two are doing just fine...but this particular post brings to mind a relevant point.

Crimson, you are 100% correct about the throws an elite QB needs to make but one of Crabtree's weaker skills is stacking or beating defenders or adjusting to and protecting a bad throw in close quarters.

Eli knows with certainty that he doesn't need to throw a perfect pass into a tight window to complete a pass. He knows his receivers (Nicks & Manningham especially) possess the athleticism to position their bodies and adjust to either catch or defend whatever pass he throws. That gives Eli a lot of confidence to throw those 'tight window' passes in the first place.

If there is a chance that a defender can make a play on a pass thrown to Crabtree I would not blame Smith for not pulling the trigger. Just because Crabtree says he was open doesn't mean he was. Like he said, "I'm a receiver, I'm always going to "think" I'm open." ultimately however, the QB is the one who has to make that decision not the WR.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't want to get into the middle of this discussion as it seems you two are doing just fine...but this particular post brings to mind a relevant point.

Crimson, you are 100% correct about the throws an elite QB needs to make but one of Crabtree's weaker skills is stacking or beating defenders or adjusting to and protecting a bad throw in close quarters.

Eli knows with certainty that he doesn't need to throw a perfect pass into a tight window to complete a pass. He knows his receivers (Nicks & Manningham especially) possess the athleticism to position their bodies and adjust to either catch or defend whatever pass he throws. That gives Eli a lot of confidence to throw those 'tight window' passes in the first place.

If there is a chance that a defender can make a play on a pass thrown to Crabtree I would not blame Smith for not pulling the trigger. Just because Crabtree says he was open doesn't mean he was. Like he said, "I'm a receiver, I'm always going to "think" I'm open." ultimately however, the QB is the one who has to make that decision not the WR.

You are largely right. Our receivers - pretty much all of them - struggle just catching the ball, much less "winning" it. And I'm sure that is something that runs through Smith's mind when he decides not to throw. It's something all our guys need to improve upon.

That said, your final sentence reinforces my point here. Smith does make the decision whether Crabtree is open, but I think "open" to Smith is pretty different from "open" to Eli, Brady, Brees, etc. That may not be an entirely fair standard, but it's part of what separates Smith from those elite guys.

 

[MW49ers5]

You are largely right. Our receivers - pretty much all of them - struggle just catching the ball, much less "winning" it. And I'm sure that is something that runs through Smith's mind when he decides not to throw. It's something all our guys need to improve upon.

That said, your final sentence reinforces my point here. Smith does make the decision whether Crabtree is open, but I think "open" to Smith is pretty different from "open" to Eli, Brady, Brees, etc. That may not be an entirely fair standard, but it's part of what separates Smith from those elite guys.

Yes, I like the 'winning it' phrase...I would 100% agree all of our WR's are weak in that category

When it comes to tight window throws, Smith seems to be a bit of an enigma. We have all seen him hit, with Montana like precision, tight windows The pass to Delanie vs. TB, the two throws to Vernon vs. NO - especially the final TD throw and many others.

But, sometimes he just doesn't pull the trigger. Is it because of who is on the receiving end of those tight windows? Is he over thinking it? Is it a lack of confidence in himself at that particular moment - why the lack of consistency for doing what he clearly has shown he can do?

I don't get it...

 

[Flyingiguana]

Look, in the course of that game, Manning repeatedly hit guys who were "covered." Cruz caught several balls with Rogers or a safety, or both, on top of him. Manningham's TD was squeezed into a very small window. Those are the plays that elite passers make. Smith had a couple - literally two or three - nice throws, but with the possible exception of Davis' second TD where there was a somewhat tight window, Smith was throwing to guys who were "open," as in, they had two or more yards on the nearest defender.

Crabtree is a bit of a dick for saying it, but he's not wrong when he observes that there is rarely such thing as "open" in this league. A QB has to be able to hit a receiver who only had half a step on the defender, or is only "open" because of his body positioning. And there's a reasonable argument that Crabtree doesn't deserve that sort of trust. But Smith rarely makes these types of throws. If we're shifting our definition of "open" to account for Smith being comfortable throwing it, well, not many receiving corps will have guys who regularly get open.

crabtree got no seperation at all. even the announcers were showing that linebacker breaking up a pass because crabtree couldn't get seperation. had smith made those throws late in the game for 4-5 yards there was a corner all over both kyle and crabtree.

the giants wr's were getting open and eli missed countless throws. if the giants lost the talk would have been how eli choked.

 

[MHSL82]

Yes, I like the 'winning it' phrase...I would 100% agree all of our WR's are weak in that category

When it comes to tight window throws, Smith seems to be a bit of an enigma. We have all seen him hit, with Montana like precision, tight windows The pass to Delanie vs. TB, the two throws to Vernon vs. NO - especially the final TD throw and many others.

But, sometimes he just doesn't pull the trigger. Is it because of who is on the receiving end of those tight windows? Is he over thinking it? Is it a lack of confidence in himself at that particular moment - why the lack of consistency for doing what he clearly has shown he can do?

I don't get it...

The fact that he can fit them in tight windows but doesn't is both a good thing and bad thing. It's good that he can do it because people would swear up and down that he couldn't. The fact that he doesn't is bad because it's frustrating to see someone let his team down when he could do it. I wouldn't blame him for not doing it if he couldn't. I'd blame him for not being able to. But since he is capable, the blame goes to not doing it.

But this is a good thing, because if he can, this is something he will be able to grow into. Some people say you can't learn certain things. Fitting in tight windows may or may not be one of those things. If he can do it, then we don't have to worry about that. Now, we just need to see if his stripes are this color for a reason. Get rid of the reason and maybe the colors change. If the colors are that way for no reason, then hope is lost, because they say you can't change the color of your stripes (I might be getting the metaphor wrong). If the reason is personnel, then the draft and FA could help. If it's chemistry, a full offseason could help. If it's coaching, Harbaugh can help, despite his apparent conservative nature. If it's experience, though 7 years should be enough, he has more now and will have more by next season.

I do think constantly being told not to screw up without being told how to succeed has had an effect. Some people don't need to be taught that, but for someone who needs everything to be understood, that's huge. I think Harbaugh helped that but not cold turkey. Bad habits die hard and I think Harbaugh took the bad habit of causing TOs because of caution (no risk, no reward) to limiting TOs due to caution. This offseason, it should be how to create opportunities through risk. Despite my faith in Harbaugh, this is no sure bet. Despite Smith's past, I wouldn't put it past him. I'm eager to see how this turns out.

 

[MW49ers5]

He can do it, he has done it but sometimes he doesn't - why? That is the perfect question for an open forum such as this.

 

[MHSL82]

He can do it, he has done it but sometimes he doesn't - why? That is the perfect question for an open forum such as this.

Because of Crabtree, not Morgan. Just playin'.

 

[MW49ers5]

Because of Crabtree, not Morgan. Just playin'.

How much truth, if any, do you feel is in that statement?

 

[MHSL82]

How much truth, if any, do you feel is in that statement?

He might think it's because of his receivers, but just like I said before, once you know that you're dealing with, you must adjust. Just like I said a receiver working with Smith needs to know that with a tentative QB, you need to work harder to get open or work on your chemistry with the guy that will have the most effect on your career. Similarly, once you know you are dealing with a receiver corp who tends to pop balls up, you need to work on it. Once you know that it's your arm or your mind you don't trust, you need to practice on it and study it.

Once you know you are hesitant, you need to work on figuring out why, when, and whether your tendencies are working and when they are holding you back. I don't have very good advice for people that are not in my field of work, but I do know that if it works, it works - if not, you've got to fix it, rather than throwing your hands up and resigning to the troubles of the league/team. So if does think it's Crabtree, he's got to adjust. Morgan hasn't popped balls up much, if at all, but it's not like he doesn't have flaws that Smith could be weary about.

 

[MW49ers5]

I see

 

[deep9er]

The fact that he can fit them in tight windows but doesn't is both a good thing and bad thing. It's good that he can do it because people would swear up and down that he couldn't. The fact that he doesn't is bad because it's frustrating to see someone let his team down when he could do it. I wouldn't blame him for not doing it if he couldn't. I'd blame him for not being able to. But since he is capable, the blame goes to not doing it.

But this is a good thing, because if he can, this is something he will be able to grow into. Some people say you can't learn certain things. Fitting in tight windows may or may not be one of those things. If he can do it, then we don't have to worry about that. Now, we just need to see if his stripes are this color for a reason. Get rid of the reason and maybe the colors change. If the colors are that way for no reason, then hope is lost, because they say you can't change the color of your stripes (I might be getting the metaphor wrong). If the reason is personnel, then the draft and FA could help. If it's chemistry, a full offseason could help. If it's coaching, Harbaugh can help, despite his apparent conservative nature. If it's experience, though 7 years should be enough, he has more now and will have more by next season.

I do think constantly being told not to screw up without being told how to succeed has had an effect. Some people don't need to be taught that, but for someone who needs everything to be understood, that's huge. I think Harbaugh helped that but not cold turkey. Bad habits die hard and I think Harbaugh took the bad habit of causing TOs because of caution (no risk, no reward) to limiting TOs due to caution. This offseason, it should be how to create opportunities through risk. Despite my faith in Harbaugh, this is no sure bet. Despite Smith's past, I wouldn't put it past him. I'm eager to see how this turns out.

good point, maybe not so much "being told not to screw up...", but being praised for not screwing up? being praised can also reinforce caution with passing.

either way, we ALL want him to "create opportunities through risk", just hope we fans don't crucify him again? cause we all know its out of his comfort zone, and asking him to do something KNOWING......its his weakness.

 

[MW49ers5]

good point, maybe not so much "being told not to screw up...", but being praised for not screwing up? being praised can also reinforce caution with passing.

either way, we ALL want him to "create opportunities through risk", just hope we fans don't crucify him again? cause we all know its out of his comfort zone, and asking him to do something KNOWING......its his weakness.

Unfortunately, Deep - I think Smith will forever be on a short leash with the fans. There is no question he has earned some patience credit - but, imo, that will go very quickly if 'Alex' returns...

 

[MHSL82]

good point, maybe not so much "being told not to screw up...", but being praised for not screwing up? being praised can also reinforce caution with passing.

either way, we ALL want him to "create opportunities through risk", just hope we fans don't crucify him again? cause we all know its out of his comfort zone, and asking him to do something KNOWING......its his weakness.

I read an article on how whenever Alex threw an interception, all Singletary would say was, "you can't do that". I can't find the article, but remember it wasn't just a fan. But even if you take it as a fan, I remember seeing him say that and Alex looking dejected. It might have been him being mad at himself and no matter what Sing said he'd be mad, but Singletary hasn't exactly earned much benefit of the doubt when it comes to offense and coaching details.

What I mean by "create opportunities through risk" is through film he might see when it was more prudent to take the risk when it appeared that everyone was covered. He could see body positioning of the defender, etc. I'm sure he's done this every year, but now he has someone he trusts isn't trying to find somebody else (Harbaugh is trying to find a QB, but it seems that it isn't exclusive of Smith). This goes over my head because I can't process information nearly as fast as even the worst high school QB. I can't imagine trying to speed up from the NFL.

I know, very vague, but I've done things before where someone more experienced showed me a way that made it much more simple. Harbaugh can do that. Add in more reliable receivers, better understanding of the playbook, longer time to study defenses, and more chemistry with his teammates and I'm hopeful. I do recognize, however, that every other team has this opportunity, too. Hopefully, they are preoccupied. But we have to worry about us, not them.

 

[MHSL82]

Unfortunately, Deep - I think Smith will forever be on a short leash with the fans. There is no question he has earned some patience credit - but, imo, that will go very quickly if 'Alex' returns...

True. Even when people praise him, they need to bring in the fire extinguisher. He played great, for him. He fits this system pretty well, just can't wait to find the franchise QB.

I have no problem with doubts on Alex Smith. Heck, even I have them. It's the fact that even when everyone knows one's position on Smith (and everyone has a position), people find the need to let everyone know that they haven't gone full in when praising his performance. It's like, man, we know; it's ok. It's alright to be happy for Smith after the Saints game. We know you weren't saying Montana.

People came in full force on some message boards defending Williams after the fumbles. I know, I know, Smith had the ball more than Williams. Smith didn't do enough. But I wouldn't be surprised if the defense of Williams came before the criticism of Williams. But that's how it goes. Smith got the first credit for the Saints game, before Geep Chryst, about the same time as Davis, and I didn't see anyone mention the OL. They held long enough for Smith not to panic and turn safe on us. So it comes with the territory.

 

[MW49ers5]

I think those qualified comments about Smith just come with the conversation. Smith has been a polarizing figure for seven years now and that is not going to change...ever imo.

 

[deep9er]

Unfortunately, Deep - I think Smith will forever be on a short leash with the fans. There is no question he has earned some patience credit - but, imo, that will go very quickly if 'Alex' returns...

know what.........you're dead on.

 

[deep9er]

I read an article on how whenever Alex threw an interception, all Singletary would say was, "you can't do that". I can't find the article, but remember it wasn't just a fan. But even if you take it as a fan, I remember seeing him say that and Alex looking dejected. It might have been him being mad at himself and no matter what Sing said he'd be mad, but Singletary hasn't exactly earned much benefit of the doubt when it comes to offense and coaching details.

What I mean by "create opportunities through risk" is through film he might see when it was more prudent to take the risk when it appeared that everyone was covered. He could see body positioning of the defender, etc. I'm sure he's done this every year, but now he has someone he trusts isn't trying to find somebody else (Harbaugh is trying to find a QB, but it seems that it isn't exclusive of Smith). This goes over my head because I can't process information nearly as fast as even the worst high school QB. I can't imagine trying to speed up from the NFL.

I know, very vague, but I've done things before where someone more experienced showed me a way that made it much more simple. Harbaugh can do that. Add in more reliable receivers, better understanding of the playbook, longer time to study defenses, and more chemistry with his teammates and I'm hopeful. I do recognize, however, that every other team has this opportunity, too. Hopefully, they are preoccupied. But we have to worry about us, not them.

yes, there'll be SOME improvement just by continuity alone. not only for Alex but everyone else too, it all adds up and everyone looks better.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Yes, I like the 'winning it' phrase...I would 100% agree all of our WR's are weak in that category

When it comes to tight window throws, Smith seems to be a bit of an enigma. We have all seen him hit, with Montana like precision, tight windows The pass to Delanie vs. TB, the two throws to Vernon vs. NO - especially the final TD throw and many others.

But, sometimes he just doesn't pull the trigger. Is it because of who is on the receiving end of those tight windows? Is he over thinking it? Is it a lack of confidence in himself at that particular moment - why the lack of consistency for doing what he clearly has shown he can do?

I don't get it...

ya notice what position those guys play. that's why we needed a healthy braylon this year. and why we absolutely needed to make a run at lloyd or even owens.

whether or not you believe smith can deliver, crabtree and williams failed horribly. all the attention was switched to vernon after his td, so that should have opened up our wr's, yet it didn't. i'll give them a slight benefit of the doubt when it comes to playcalling, but the giants didn't respect our wr's ability to beat them deep. the timing on deep throws with the field conditions were tough.

where were the double moves? where were the crossing routes? where were the screens that crabtree is capable of breaking like we seen against the rams?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

crabtree got no seperation at all. even the announcers were showing that linebacker breaking up a pass because crabtree couldn't get seperation. had smith made those throws late in the game for 4-5 yards there was a corner all over both kyle and crabtree.

the giants wr's were getting open and eli missed countless throws. if the giants lost the talk would have been how eli choked.

No, all the talk would have been how the Niners' DL was unblockable.