LIONS FIRE SCHWARTZ OFFICIALLY

[tpaulus_2]

TP said Detroit had arguably THE best OLine, but definitely top 5 or something along those lines.

Thank you. That's exactly what I said.

I know the self-proclaimed "realists" around here have a hard time praising any particular aspect of our team, but the fact remains (yes, fact, not just my opinion) that we had a top 5 offensive line this year.

It kind of startles me that people who I would assume watch the games and follow our team are arguing so adamantly against this fact.

It's not like I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass or something- we've been getting recognition as one of the best o-lines in the league since about mid-season. Great PFF grades, solid YPC average, elite in pass-pro, lots of talk about Warford being one of the best few guards in the game already, talk of Reiff playing well and Riaola having his best season, and lots of love for the UDFA Waddle... Not my fault if you know-it-all "realists" don't pay attention and instead just rely on your jaded instincts instead.

And since I'm already going to get lit up for not being a negative, whiny bitch (sorry, our season was a flop, but Schwartz is gone, time to move on people) and not going with the flow, I'd love to point out how laughable some of these top-5 o-lines that are getting tossed out there are. All you guys are doing is taking the best handful of teams in the league and assuming that because they had the best records in the league therefore they had the best o-lines. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid and lazy. There's a lot more to consider than win-loss record.

Seattle and Denver are the two I keep seeing that make me cringe the most. Seattle had a lot of injuries on their o-line this year, and a lot of struggles across the front because of it. They were still very decent, considering, but not a top-5 unit. Denver was in that same boat to an extent. Very solid o-line play to be sure, but a key injury left them in a tough spot. It cracks me up, though, that when someone asks for a list of 5 o-lines better than Detroit's we get lists of the best teams in the league with little to nothing else to support these claims.

Long story short is that the Detroit football Lions had one of the best o-lines in the league this year, and it's honestly not all that debatable. I think people are just being sour over the way the season ended and can't separate their anger/hostility from the facts in front of them... Oh well, I can take comfort in knowing that we have an elite (and very young) o-line for our new coaching staff to inherit; if some of you aren't mature enough to put your anger aside and look at the reality of what we have, then that's your problem.

The way I look at is our team has enough struggles and lets us down enough as it is- I have no interest in manufacturing further negatives as some of you seem so eager to do. I can't imagine seeing things that way, glass constantly 9/10 empty... seems like a shitty way to go through life, imo...

 

[tpaulus_2]

I just can't call them one of the best, when they averaged 4 YPC against 7 man fronts and their QB finished with 19 interceptions and ranked 30th in completion %.

If you're looking at just the raw numbers on NFL that figure Stafford's sacks, kneel-downs, etc... against our YPC average, then we're at a middle-of-the pack 4.0 YPC. If you look at what our only two players to get more than a handful of attempts (Bush and Bell) did, then it jumps up to a 4.3 YPC average, which puts us just outside the top-10.

This is exactly why looking at raw offensive stats can be very misleading when it comes to figuring out the best o-line. The flip-side, I guess, is that Philly led the league in YPC average and also had perhaps the best o-line in the league...

 

[themuzzer]

I'm a realist and predicted 7-9......Nailed it!.....Same ole Lions.

 

[tpaulus_2]

TP -- what do you believe directly correlates to the stat's of the skill position players on offensive?

O-line play, QB play, the play of, idk, the skill players themselves, coaching, scheme, weather... lots of things. Just like lots of things go into determining quality of the o-line play- not simply overall record and skill-player stats.

Look -- I think Detroit was light years better on the OL than they have been in the past, but to make the comment that you did, calling them arguably the best OL in the NFL is overboard.

Overboard in your opinion, which carries a long-established track record of trashing anything and everything about the Detroit Lions pretty much every time you're given a platform.

Seriously- did anyone else notice that through the start of the season when we were winning games and leading the division we hardly saw hide nor hair of this guy, but now that the season went to shit and there's bitching to be done he's posted more in the last week than he had in the previous 5 months?

I think you should consider changing your screen name on here to "SameShitDifferentDay", because that's a pretty accurate descriptor of your entire posting history for the last few years.

Detroit has not one, but two capable backs, yet they were ranked 22nd in the NFL in YPC, while facing 7 in the box the vast majority of the time, because teams game planned to stop Calvin.

Like I posted above- take out all of the BS stuff and look at the only two guys to actually get meaningful carries for us (i.e. our RUNNING GAME): Bush and Bell averaged nearly 4.3 YPC on the season, which would have put us at 12th on the season.

You're very good at manipulating the numbers to serve your ends, I hope I'm not the only one who sees this. You cherry pick the worst stats you can find, and neglect and/or ignore any stats that dispute your claims.

If you wanted to say Detroit is in the top 5 for pass protection -- I would say, I can see that argument. But if you've noticed -- we changed 60% of the OL and they excelled in the same part the last OL excelled in (pass protection), which makes me believe, Stafford throwing the ball away or forcing throws has a lot to do with that, instead of taking the sack.

If I'm not mistaken we had the best sacks-to-passing-attempts ratio, thereby making us the top pass-blocking unit in the league. Add in that our RBs averaged 4.3 YPC and I feel that the combination of being an elite pass blocking o-line along with having a rushing attack in the upper-half of the league makes our o-line one of the best all-around units in the league.

There were o-lines that had better run blocking numbers, and o-lines who were at, or near, our level in pass-pro. But there were very few, if any (Philly makes a helluva case), o-lines who were as good in both facets of the game, simple as that.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I'm a realist and predicted 7-9......Nailed it!.....Same ole Lions.

I'm pretty sure I also predicted 7-9 for the season. I guess I'm just being negative.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

If you're looking at just the raw numbers on NFL that figure Stafford's sacks, kneel-downs, etc... against our YPC average, then we're at a middle-of-the pack 4.0 YPC. If you look at what our only two players to get more than a handful of attempts (Bush and Bell) did, then it jumps up to a 4.3 YPC average, which puts us just outside the top-10.

This is exactly why looking at raw offensive stats can be very misleading when it comes to figuring out the best o-line. The flip-side, I guess, is that Philly led the league in YPC average and also had perhaps the best o-line in the league...

If you are going to get pissy, which I HAVE NOT BEEN, and start tossing out "facts", your words, not mine. At least have a clue what you are talking about. Sack yardage doesn't count against a teams rushing total. It actually counts against their PASSING totals.

I haven't been pissy or tried to cut down the team. I have said the Lions were vastly improved and were light years better than they have been from year's past on the OL. I also said with another year's experience, they could be a top 5 unit if they continue to improve.

 

[tpaulus_2]

TrustmeImright, is right on this one.

C'mon guys, this Oline is at worst, 15th in the NFL. This Oline really doesn't do what most good Olines do and that's imposing their will on defenders. Lions still struggle to run the ball consistently and they aren't really good at play-action when Stafford is under center. Does this Oline pick up blitzing consistently? From what I saw, when teams did blitz, Stafford was in trouble. As many times as the team ran screens, they shouldve gained tons of yards with it, yet they struggled. Regardless of what anybody says and how bad the coaches may be, I still believe they know what they have and thats why this team quit running at times.

Strictly out of curiosity, what team did you watch this season? All of those things you listed as doing poorly are exactly the reason our o-line was so improved this year. We've been elite in pass-pro for a few seasons now, but our new-found success in the running game was totally unexpected given all of the changes and youth on the o-line.

You say they didn't impose their will on the defense, but when we got after it and ran the damn ball that's exactly what they did. Warford and Reiff both had big success mauling people at the second level, and Waddle generated huge push at the line of scrimmage when we ran behind him.

They did well against the blitz, contrary to what you posted here, and the only time we really struggled on screens is when Stafford (repeatedly) decided he needed, for whatever idiotic reason, to side-arm it at the RBs feet.

Yes- there's better running teams out there with better run-blocking lines. Those lines are generally built around a power running game and don't have the pass-blocking proficiency that we do.

As far as balanced o-lines go, the ones who are good at both phases of the game, few are better.

I don't get how you can give Stafford a pass on his struggles this year, and then call our o-line middle of the pack after the season they just had? Doesn't add up...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Like I posted above- take out all of the BS stuff and look at the only two guys to actually get meaningful carries for us (i.e. our RUNNING GAME): Bush and Bell averaged nearly 4.3 YPC on the season, which would have put us at 12th on the season.

You're very good at manipulating the numbers to serve your ends, I hope I'm not the only one who sees this. You cherry pick the worst stats you can find, and neglect and/or ignore any stats that dispute your claims.

Just so I get this straight -- when talking about the Lions OL, you can pick certain players and disregard the others and then say they would rank 12th instead of 22nd, yet you don't do that with all the other teams? That makes sense.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Did anyone actually bother to look up the stats?

2013 Lions O -

13th in total scoring/points.

6th in yards per game.

8th in yards per play.

3rd in 3rd downs made - (43%) Pretty good!

14th in 4th down made - (5/14) Not so good.

8th worst in penalties and 9th in yards (not all on O-line, just putting it out there).

TOP - 4th overall. Pretty impressive.

3rd worst in fumbles (28/lost 15)

29th in TO ratio with - 15 (killer)

Those are the O stats

I don't see numbers that tell me this team has a top 5 O-line. I see a lot of room for improvement, and some things they do well. I'm thrilled Reilly Reiff is starting caliber LT like I thought he would be. Love Larry Warford. Maybe Waddle is a keeper I'm not sure. Sims is 30 years old, not super old for an O lineman but getting up there. Not sure how many years you guys expect Ravioli to play.

Can the O-line be addressed this off season. 100% yes. Probably will be. Doesn't mean it's the biggest need, or that there aren't bigger needs, or that an early pick must be spent on it. Just don't see a playoff caliber O-line out there right now. Sorry.

I'm sorry to keep arguing with everyone here, but the numbers you posted don't mesh at all with what you had to say afterwards.

6th in yards per game, 8th in yards per play, 3rd in third down conversion percentage, 4th in time of possession- all of these stats trend towards a top-5 unit, not away from it.

Being in the bottom 10 in penalties is bad, I'll give you that.

The turnover stats are on the skill players, not the o-line, so that has minimal bearing on this debate.

The part that really confused me is the last part about us not having a playoff-caliber o-line... that's just crazy. If you want to argue that we're not top 5, that's one thing, but saying that they're not playoff caliber knocks them out of the top 12, and puts them right around the middle of the pack like Liostop suggested.

If anyone really thinks our o-line is that bad then I'm sorry, but you're hanging on to past ghosts and just being plain-old stubborn. This season, in 2013, not 2012, 2011, 1997, or any time during the Mike Martz era, but in two thousand and thirteen the Detroit Lions had one of the very best o-lines in the league. If you want to argue whether or not they were top 5 I think that's a valid debate, but dropping them out of the top ten on the season is simply ridiculous.

Also, I don't understand how/why Waddle would only "maybe" be a keeper? What am I missing here? The kid has a prototype left tackle frame, went undrafted because of concerns over the scheme he played in, but then completely killed it when he finally got the chance to play. I don't see any way he's not a keeper given how well he graded out on the year.

 

[tpaulus_2]

If you are going to get pissy, which I HAVE NOT BEEN, and start tossing out "facts", your words, not mine. At least have a clue what you are talking about. Sack yardage doesn't count against a teams rushing total. It actually counts against their PASSING totals.

Then I'm curious as to how the NFL figures out the stats that you're using here. Bush and Bell got the vast majority of our carries and averaged 4.279 something YPC. I don't see where there's enough other carries out there to bring our total down to 4 YPC...

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

I think in 2013 the Offensive Line played like a top 5 or top 10 unit.. But if they are truly remains to be seen.. You guys have a great debate going though.. I just think that Warford is an all pro player and Reif(whom I actually liked the pick at the time) is a pro bowl level player is great.. You also have Sims and Waddle who played like pro bowlers last year along with Ravioli having the best year of his career... I think TPaulus is on to something and it further indicts Schwartz as a shitty coach..

 

[lionstop1]

I didnt give Stafford a pass TP. lol

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Then I'm curious as to how the NFL figures out the stats that you're using here. Bush and Bell got the vast majority of our carries and averaged 4.279 something YPC. I don't see where there's enough other carries out there to bring our total down to 4 YPC...

You need to take that up with the NFL. Detroit finished 22nd in the NFL in YPC for their rushing offense. Yardage lost on sacks counts against rushing totals in college, but in the NFL, it is counted against your passing yards.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

O-line play, QB play, the play of, idk, the skill players themselves, coaching, scheme, weather... lots of things. Just like lots of things go into determining quality of the o-line play- not simply overall record and skill-player stats.

Ok -- you win -- Detroit had the best OL in the NFL this year.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Overboard in your opinion, which carries a long-established track record of trashing anything and everything about the Detroit Lions pretty much every time you're given a platform.

Seriously- did anyone else notice that through the start of the season when we were winning games and leading the division we hardly saw hide nor hair of this guy, but now that the season went to shit and there's bitching to be done he's posted more in the last week than he had in the previous 5 months?

I think you should consider changing your screen name on here to "SameShitDifferentDay", because that's a pretty accurate descriptor of your entire posting history for the last few years.

I wasn't on here for quite some time because I dealt with a couple unexpected deaths in the family, as well as having to take care of the baby, as the wife went back to work. If you notice -- I didn't post much at all.

The reason I've been able to post for the last couple weeks. The wife has been off work, so I have some free time. Starting January 7th -- I will be back to posting occassionally, as it is back to daddy duty during the day.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

If I'm not mistaken we had the best sacks-to-passing-attempts ratio, thereby making us the top pass-blocking unit in the league. Add in that our RBs averaged 4.3 YPC and I feel that the combination of being an elite pass blocking o-line along with having a rushing attack in the upper-half of the league makes our o-line one of the best all-around units in the league.

There were o-lines that had better run blocking numbers, and o-lines who were at, or near, our level in pass-pro. But there were very few, if any (Philly makes a helluva case), o-lines who were as good in both facets of the game, simple as that.

Yes -- you are mistaken. Denver had the best sack to pass attempt ratio. And just as I have said before -- Stafford throwing away the ball or forcing throws has a lot to do with Detroit's sack to pass attempt ratio. The same way Manning has a lot to do with Denver's and why Indy was ranked at the top of sack to pass attempt ratio every year when Manning was the QB.

Some QBs will eat the ball and take the sack, some will throw the ball away, some will force a throw. Stafford is very good at not giving up sacks, but that led to a lot of turnovers in the 2nd half of the season this year.

 

[Kreton]

Yes -- you are mistaken. Denver had the best sack to pass attempt ratio. And just as I have said before -- Stafford throwing away the ball or forcing throws has a lot to do with Detroit's sack to pass attempt ratio. The same way Manning has a lot to do with Denver's and why Indy was ranked at the top of sack to pass attempt ratio every year when Manning was the QB.

Some QBs will eat the ball and take the sack, some will throw the ball away, some will force a throw. Stafford is very good at not giving up sacks, but that led to a lot of turnovers in the 2nd half of the season this year.

Stafford was not under a ton of pressure on a lot of his bad throws. I'm not saying we had the best of line but our own line played very well this year.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I know the self-proclaimed "realists" around here have a hard time praising any particular aspect of our team, but the fact remains (yes, fact, not just my opinion) that we had a top 5 offensive line this year.

What facts are you talking about? And I haven't heard anyone say the Lions OL wasn't good this year. Most are just saying, calling them the best in the NFL or top 5 is over the top. I even said I'd have no problem saying they were in the top 10 in the NFL.

Saying Detroit's OL is the best in the NFL based on their sack to pass attempt ratio, which is one of the few stats they were ranked in the top 5 (I believe they were 2nd or 3rd) -- would be like saying the Lions OL in the each year Stafford has been QB has been a top 5 OL because Stafford is a QB who hasn't taken a lot of sacks.

No one is trying to be negative, at least I am not, when talking about the OL. Calling them the best OL in the NFL is crazy though. Put a post up on the general message board saying you think Detroit had the best OL in the NFL and you would get laughed off the board. They were vastly improved as a unit, and have the potential to be great in the upcoming years as they have quite a few young pieces.

 

[gandydancer]

I wasn't on here for quite some time because I dealt with a couple unexpected deaths in the family, as well as having to take care of the baby, as the wife went back to work. If you notice -- I didn't post much at all.

The reason I've been able to post for the last couple weeks. The wife has been off work, so I have some free time. Starting January 7th -- I will be back to posting occassionally, as it is back to daddy duty during the day.

Too busy for Lions boards??? Sure did post a lot on baseball boards all football season.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Too busy for Lions boards??? Sure did post a lot on baseball boards all football season.

Not too busy for the Lions boards -- I would still come and post in the game day threads when I had the chance and occasionally on the board here. But if I had free time to post -- with all the moves the Tigers were making in the off season, I would go there.

With the Lions going 1-6 over the last month of the season. There really wasn't much to talk about on the Lions board other than the fact Schwartz should be fired.