LeBron James

[Wamu]

what baffles me

Inside sources?











Just kidding.

 

[dtgold88]

You are really going to double down on this?

Wiggins has disappointed. But he was a huge prospect entering the league. The thought was that he would be an elite wing defender and a go to scorer. He hasn't been close to that.

Wiggins for Love was a straight up trade because Wiggins was an elite prospect entering the first year of his rookie deal. Those players have immense value.

Had they hit at #1 in the Bennett draft also, there is no way in hell they would have given up both players for Love. That is like saying they would have given up Kyrie and Wiggins for Love. Just not true.

Bennett was a clear and obvious bust, so he became expendable. Minnesota also got the benefit of possibly restoring his career with a fresh start.

I would buy this if only there was a Kyrie type player who made sense for them to take at #1 in that draft.

And, sorry, no one picked that high in any draft is a "clear and obvious bust" after 1 season. Looked to be the case, though, but was still early. Guy was 20 and missed 1/3rd of the season.

 

[dtgold88]

@dtgold88

I should say Wiggins for Love was straight up in terms of trade value of those 2 players.

Cleveland needed to include more pieces to make the salaries match.

I figured. Truth be told, I was kind of hoping the Cavs would hold out and not include Wiggins. Minnesota didn't really have any other options.

Turns out including him didn't matter.

 

[tlance]

I would buy this if only there was a Kyrie type player who made sense for them to take at #1 in that draft.

And, sorry, no one picked that high in any draft is a "clear and obvious bust" after 1 season. Looked to be the case, though, but was still early. Guy was 20 and missed 1/3rd of the season.

Damn.

I thought Bennett was 2 seasons into his career at the time of the deal.

So I will walk that back a bit because he still had some trade value. And you are right that there were a lot of other busts/mediocre players taken atop that draft.

But I still say if the Cavs thought they had something in Bennett, they would have included somebody else.

 

[dtgold88]

Damn.

I thought Bennett was 2 seasons into his career at the time of the deal.

So I will walk that back a bit because he still had some trade value. And you are right that there were a lot of other busts/mediocre players taken atop that draft.

But I still say if the Cavs thought they had something in Bennett, they would have included somebody else.

Maybe, but we are talking Kevin Love. Despite what some might think of him now, he was definitely looked at then as a superstar and I thought at the time I could not come up with a better player to play with Lebron (and Kyrie). Bennett would have needed to be more than just something I think.

Plus, Lebron openly wanted him.

 

[tlance]

Maybe, but we are talking Kevin Love. Despite what some might think of him now, he was definitely looked at then as a superstar and I thought at the time I could not come up with a better player to play with Lebron (and Kyrie). Bennett would have needed to be more than just something I think.

Plus, Lebron openly wanted him.

I agree that Kevin Love's value was very high at the time. I don't think it is fair to call him superstar, because really it was Love posting monster numbers on bad teams. And there was concern over his defense.

While I don't think he had as much value then as an Anthony Davis does now, I do think Love's value was about the same as Paul George's when he was dealt from Indiana.

Not a superstar, but he was viewed as a top 10 player in the league.

But, those guys who aren't quite superstars and only have 1 year left rarely return a prospect as good as Wiggins, let alone Wiggins +.

 

[shopson67]

I was talking about Bennett.

He was a throw in without too high of a value compared to Wiggins. A better pick may have been kept or used elsewhere. I doubt Bennett moved the needle much on that Love trade.

 

[dtgold88]

I agree that Kevin Love's value was very high at the time. I don't think it is fair to call him superstar, because really it was Love posting monster numbers on bad teams. And there was concern over his defense.

While I don't think he had as much value then as an Anthony Davis does now, I do think Love's value was about the same as Paul George's when he was dealt from Indiana.

Not a superstar, but he was viewed as a top 10 player in the league.

But, those guys who aren't quite superstars and only have 1 year left rarely return a prospect as good as Wiggins, let alone Wiggins +.

In most cases I agree. But Cavs were in win now mode once they got Lebron back. I always felt if they won a title with Love, Wiggins could have turned into Kobe and the deal was still a win for the Cavs.

We also know Lebron wanted the deal done (and with Kyrie and Lebron a big was far more important than anything wiggins could offer).

 

[dtgold88]

He was a throw in without too high of a value compared to Wiggins. A better pick may have been kept or used elsewhere. I doubt Bennett moved the needle much on that Love trade.

I don't think he did either, but any other player the Cavs would have realistically taken would have been moved in that deal.....and the Cavs would have been happy to do it.

 

[tlance]

In most cases I agree. But Cavs were in win now mode once they got Lebron back. I always felt if they won a title with Love, Wiggins could have turned into Kobe and the deal was still a win for the Cavs.

We also know Lebron wanted the deal done (and with Kyrie and Lebron a big was far more important than anything wiggins could offer).

I agree with all that.

And still stand by my point that they would not have traded Wiggins and Bennett if Bennett showed even a little promise. Because Wiggins was enough.

 

[dtgold88]

I agree with all that.

And still stand by my point that they would not have traded Wiggins and Bennett if Bennett showed even a little promise. Because Wiggins was enough.

Just not sure there was anyone they would have realistically taken who would have been someone they would not have dealt. Someone who would have shown so much promise they would not have moved him.

 

[tlance]

Just not sure there was anyone they would have realistically taken who would have been someone they would not have dealt. Someone who would have shown so much promise they would not have moved him.

I disagree.

The class was full of busts at the top. Still though. Bennett was still an out of nowhere pick and he played so terribly his rookie year it was hard to imagine him being a good player.

Bennett's trade value was minimal at the time of the trade. That is the point. You will never again see successive #1 overall picks with a combined 1 year of experience moved for a non-superstar with 1 year left on his deal.

The reason this happened was because Bennett was so abhorrently bad the Cavs felt okay about moving on. Nobody else, not Otto Porter, Nerlens Noel, nobody would they have been so willing to give up on so soon.

 

[Mecca]

In this case it's more that we fans like to give piping hot takes about a player or team after one or two games

The playoffs are the best, a team loses game 1 and everyone's all "that's it they are toast"

This is one of my favorites

Don't forget all the " Cavs will hit the switch " posts and the always popular " Cavs are not making the Finals " because they lost some games in the regular Season hot takes.

Those were my Favs at the end of the year and all last Post Season.

* Prays nobody goes back to find all my " The Raptors are different this year " posts at the beginning of the 2017-18 Season *

 

[Mecca]

Just not sure there was anyone they would have realistically taken who would have been someone they would not have dealt. Someone who would have shown so much promise they would not have moved him.

I can agree with this.

I do think they would have fought it long and hard if it were a halfway decent player.

But, inevitably, they would have dealt them.

I disagree.

The class was full of busts at the top. Still though. Bennett was still an out of nowhere pick and he played so terribly his rookie year it was hard to imagine him being a good player.

Bennett's trade value was minimal at the time of the trade. That is the point. You will never again see successive #1 overall picks with a combined 1 year of experience moved for a non-superstar with 1 year left on his deal.

The reason this happened was because Bennett was so abhorrently bad the Cavs felt okay about moving on. Nobody else, not Otto Porter, Nerlens Noel, nobody would they have been so willing to give up on so soon.

No, would have been a much lengthier negotiation.

However, the Cavs would have eventually folded.

Bennett was a throw in for both salary reasons and for appearances sake.

Looks better to say you got back to back #1 guys when you deal your best player.

But, the writing was on the Wall for Bennett.

The Wolves decided to kick the tires on him and almost immediately realized they were FAT...* coughs* flat.

 

[dtgold88]

I disagree.

The class was full of busts at the top. Still though. Bennett was still an out of nowhere pick and he played so terribly his rookie year it was hard to imagine him being a good player.

Bennett's trade value was minimal at the time of the trade. That is the point. You will never again see successive #1 overall picks with a combined 1 year of experience moved for a non-superstar with 1 year left on his deal.

The reason this happened was because Bennett was so abhorrently bad the Cavs felt okay about moving on. Nobody else, not Otto Porter, Nerlens Noel, nobody would they have been so willing to give up on so soon.

Did you just forget to end with IMO? Noel would not even have played and there was still no lock he would play. while not to the level of Bennett of course, Noel would also have been labeled a bust.

Would they have tried not to move Porter if they had him? Sure, but they'd have given in if they had to.

And, yes, Love was thought of as a superstar at the time. A top 10 player. Not many players in the league were capable of going for, what, 25 and 14? Yes, on a bad team. Just like AD has played on for most of his career. Are we dismissing his numbers? No, not saying Love is or was AD. Just stating an opinion supported with facts.

 

[tlance]

Did you just forget to end with IMO? Noel would not even have played and there was still no lock he would play. while not to the level of Bennett of course, Noel would also have been labeled a bust.

Would they have tried not to move Porter if they had him? Sure, but they'd have given in if they had to.

And, yes, Love was thought of as a superstar at the time. A top 10 player. Not many players in the league were capable of going for, what, 25 and 14? Yes, on a bad team. Just like AD has played on for most of his career. Are we dismissing his numbers? No, not saying Love is or was AD. Just stating an opinion supported with facts.

Noel had considerably more value after 1 season of not playing than Bennett did after 1 season of playing.

It matters not that Noel eventually busted too, all that matters here is what his value was in the summer of 2014. And that was still high based on potential.

And no, Kevin Love was never a superstar. Sorry. Superstars are the best of the best. There are probably more today than ever before. But in some NBA eras there were only 2-3 legit NBA superstars at a time.

Aside from LeBron and KD, There were not that many "superstars" at that time. I honestly can't think of another although I am probably missing somebody.

Kobe and Duncan were still very good, but no longer superelite players. Wade had fallen. Rose got hurt. Many of the younger players like Russ, Curry, AD and Kawhi hadn't fully arrived yet. Being a top 10 player does not automatically make somebody a superstar.

 

[tlance]

Chris Paul was a superstar in 2014

 

[dtgold88]

Chris Paul was a superstar in 2014

Agree.....and think that supports my case. Right or wrong, so was Love. You are also forgetting fit. He was thought by many to be arguably the best fit of anyone to play with Lebron at the time. A shooter who could drag his man out to the 3 point line, as well as play inside and rebound....excellent on the outlet pass as well.

No way IMO the Cavs weren't getting him if Noel or Porter had to go, too (if they had him).

 

[tlance]

Agree.....and think that supports my case. Right or wrong, so was Love. You are also forgetting fit. He was thought by many to be arguably the best fit of anyone to play with Lebron at the time. A shooter who could drag his man out to the 3 point line, as well as play inside and rebound....excellent on the outlet pass as well.

No way IMO the Cavs weren't getting him if Noel or Porter had to go, too (if they had him).

Dude

I know you are unreasonably high on Kevin Love.

He was never a superstar. Chris Paul being a superstar doesn't help your case at all. CP3 was the best offensive PG in the league and a first team all defense guy. LEBron and KD were annual MVP candidates. Love was 11th in MVP voting that year.

At his best, Kevin Love was a poor defender who produced stats on a bad team. Fantasy basketball superstar sure. But in real life not so much.

That doesn't mean he wasn't valuable. But if you think K Love was a superstar in 2014 then I would question your definition of the term.

Start a poll if you want. I doubt many outside of Cleveland homers would agree with your take.

 

[dtgold88]

Dude

I know you are unreasonably high on Kevin Love.

He was never a superstar. Chris Paul being a superstar doesn't help your case at all. CP3 was the best offensive PG in the league and a first team all defense guy. LEBron and KD were annual MVP candidates. Love was 11th in MVP voting that year.

At his best, Kevin Love was a poor defender who produced stats on a bad team. Fantasy basketball superstar sure. But in real life not so much.

That doesn't mean he wasn't valuable. But if you think K Love was a superstar in 2014 then I would question your definition of the term.

Start a poll if you want. I doubt many outside of Cleveland homers would agree with your take.

Most Cavs' fans I think would be on your side here. But we are talking about fans who think fake toughguy Green is better than Love, so hard to take seriously.

And you keep losing sight of the idea Love was probably the best fit to be added to that Cavalier team at the time.

But if you want to drop it down to star I wouldn't disagree all that much.