Kelchner's words

[bbwvfan]

The LSU game is one of your examples that created your concern.

If I am reading you correctly, they gave up and had poor body language when they went down at half. It seems this is your premise.

In the LSU game, they fell behind 27-7 after Geno was intercepted by the Honey Badger on a great play near the end of the first half.

But, WVU came out and totally dominated the 3rd qtr. I was there... I remember it like yesterday. LSU could not stop WVU... despite their punter locking us in poor field position the entire game.

WVU scored 2 unanswered TD's to close the gap to 27-21.

Then they gave up the KO return for a TD.

 

[bbwvfan]

I fail to see how early season losses would cause this concern for you.

Most would look to the end of the season to see what affect coaching and maturity make on the season.

As I have already pointed out, WVU fell behind in all three of their last regular season games... or were behind at some point in each of those games... and came out of each of them victorious.

Kind of blows your premise out of the water.

 

[WVUDAD]

BB, no it certainly does not, YOU are looking at these last two years with VERY homer colored glasses. A back and forth score is NOT playing from behind. I watched the whole team give up on the LSU game after the runback, and if you saw something different, you cant see anything. I watched the offense get WORSE through the last two years, with the exception of the bowl game against Clemson. I watched the defense get worse under Efore last year. Looking at the end of the seasons like you say you want to shows a team that declined through the year, so it blows YOUR homer Holgorsen loving premise out of the water. EARLY losses???????? 5-0 start, then the "great" offense scores a total of 3 TDs in two games, then never got back in form the rest of the year, including an ass whipping by 'Cuse in the Yankee bowl that was even worse than the score would make one think. In year three, I expect to see the clock issues gone, the communication errors gone, the excuses gone.

 

[Mac_Bridger]

Dad, of course the defense was worse under eFore last year. Two reasons. First, I don't think anyone will argue that eFore can coach. Secondly, we switched from a 3-3 stack to a 3-4 without the players to run it. Regardless of the learning curve, we just didn't have the players to run the 3-4. We still don't have the players for it this year, but we do have some, enough to make a difference. Anyone who has ever played, coached or watched football knows you don't just change up everything you do and expect it to be executed correctly.

 

[bbwvfan]

BB, no it certainly does not, YOU are looking at these last two years with VERY homer colored glasses. A back and forth score is NOT playing from behind. I watched the whole team give up on the LSU game after the runback, and if you saw something different, you cant see anything. I watched the offense get WORSE through the last two years, with the exception of the bowl game against Clemson. I watched the defense get worse under Efore last year. Looking at the end of the seasons like you say you want to shows a team that declined through the year, so it blows YOUR homer Holgorsen loving premise out of the water. EARLY losses???????? 5-0 start, then the "great" offense scores a total of 3 TDs in two games, then never got back in form the rest of the year, including an ass whipping by 'Cuse in the Yankee bowl that was even worse than the score would make one think. In year three, I expect to see the clock issues gone, the communication errors gone, the excuses gone.

Dad,

Come on... you're better than this.

You're jumping all over the place.

It is hard for me to keep up.

So, now we are evaluating the last two years. The make-up of the coaching staff is quite different over those two years... right?

So... the WVU team gave up after the KO return? This is now your argument?

You may want to go back and review the play-by-play of the game.

On the first series for WVU after the TD return, WVU moved the ball to the LSU 43 yd line before they were forced to punt. LSU marched down the field and scored another TD.

After this TD, WVU once again marched down the field on LSU... once again reaching the LSU 43 yd line before Geno fumbled to give the ball back to LSU.

Where was the quit in Dana's offense?

Are you claiming that Casteel's defense quit?

 

[WVUDAD]

Mac, my biggest beef with Efore is that regardless of WHAT you are teaching, there should be SOME improvement over time. The guy can't coach at all, maybe he can keep players paid, get them to cut his grass for $500 a wek, and supply recruits with pussy, the guy is a drag on our program today. As to the BE-B12 argument, I would say that UL and UCF could compete in the B12, and no one from the B12 could be said to be a lock to win the BE. YES, there are better NAMES in the B12, but is Texas good this year? Is KSU what they have been? The B12 is down this year, those gawdy offenses from the last couple years are not there this year.

 

[bbwvfan]

BB, no it certainly does not, YOU are looking at these last two years with VERY homer colored glasses. A back and forth score is NOT playing from behind. I watched the whole team give up on the LSU game after the runback, and if you saw something different, you cant see anything. I watched the offense get WORSE through the last two years, with the exception of the bowl game against Clemson. I watched the defense get worse under Efore last year. Looking at the end of the seasons like you say you want to shows a team that declined through the year, so it blows YOUR homer Holgorsen loving premise out of the water. EARLY losses???????? 5-0 start, then the "great" offense scores a total of 3 TDs in two games, then never got back in form the rest of the year, including an ass whipping by 'Cuse in the Yankee bowl that was even worse than the score would make one think. In year three, I expect to see the clock issues gone, the communication errors gone, the excuses gone.

Early Lossess... yes the early losses in Dana's first year. This is the conversation. Why are you confused?

The 5-0 start was in Dana's 2nd year... right? Why would you mention it?

Never got back in form? Do you forget the KU game?

In year 3, Dana is dealing with the fall-out of Bill Stewart not filling his classes... and having a bunch of the recruits he did bring wash out.

Dana, is now forced to go with the 8th youngest team in Div. I football.

Communication.... clock issues... will be part of the early learning curve for this year's team. They have replaced 8 starters on offense.

Most WVU fans understand this... acknowledge this. And, are patient with their team.

Has nothing to do with being a homer. Just understanding of the game....

 

[WVUDAD]

Early Lossess... yes the early losses in Dana's first year. This is the conversation. Why are you confused?

The 5-0 start was in Dana's 2nd year... right? Why would you mention it?

Never got back in form? Do you forget the KU game?

In year 3, Dana is dealing with the fall-out of Bill Stewart not filling his classes... and having a bunch of the recruits he did bring wash out.

Dana, is now forced to go with the 8th youngest team in Div. I football.

Communication.... clock issues... will be part of the early learning curve for this year's team. They have replaced 8 starters on offense.

Most WVU fans understand this... acknowledge this. And, are patient with their team.

Has nothing to do with being a homer. Just understanding of the game....

HUH, patient, HUH novel idea, a new idea for WVU fans, did they learn it in the last 3 years?

 

[DCWV4life]

I am still trying to figure out you think you have watched the offense get worse in 2011 and 2012 when we averaged 37 and 39 pts respectively both top 13 in the nation...even after the back to back 14 pt games we averaged 37.5 ppg including the 14 pt pinstripe game. Under DH we have only scored under 20 pts 4 times, and once under 10 last week.

I am following along reading some of these post...the LSU game has been mentioned if you were at that game that was not a team that gave up..also that LSU team played for the title that year and was undefeated.. We put up the most yards that team allowed that year and we put up more points(21) Than every team it played besides number #4 Oregon(27)..list includes # 5 Arkansas and #1 Alabama. Only two teams put up more than 20.

As to comparing schedules, 2012 WVU played more winning teams (just wins f rankings) then it had ever played 8. They also played 7 of the top 25 offensive teams in the nation. 7 out of 9 conf games were against teams above .500 and only one team had less than 6 wins. Last year I found some interesting stuff on crowds we played in front of on the road since home field advantage should be considered when discussing toughness of schedule....I will try to verify but I believe we played in front of more people last year on the road than we did in the BE from 2009-2011. I know that we did but need to dig up information to verify exact numbers.

See you boys at the Maryland game.

 

[GoldRusher]

no one from the B12 could be said to be a lock to win the BE.

 

[JIMKOON]

Are we not debating things that have zero to do with 2013? 2005? 2007? Were those not different teams, different players, different coaches? What could it possibly mean to this team? I mean really people, your not comparing apples to apples, except maybe old rotten ones.

What is at hand is whether or not this team, in this conference can be as competitive as we think it should, based on the level of talent walking onto the field. Even with the players who have gone on to the NFL from last year, we have had a pretty good showing in the recruitment department. The only way we are going to improve is with experience in the face of quality opponents. Someone wrote here earlier, or maybe on another post, that attitude going into the game, holding firmly to the belief WE CAN win, is just as important as doing battle itself.

We are just, after all, fans. We don't play the games, we offer our opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I'm certainly not always right, but I believe in WVU, in ALL things, not just football, basketball, baseball, any sport, but in it's standing as an institution of higher learning in the United States, and I want WVU to excel on ALL levels. Our present AD is a former Rhodes Scholar, one of the many students who have walked our campus, AND, played on our football field. We have to respect that, and while some may disagree with his decisions here and there, overall, the state of WVU sports is taking the very baby steps into a higher playing atmosphere, and we will have struggles. Accept that, and you will be content, ranting like a fool, belittling others opinions because they don't jive with yours, well, that's just plain childish.

Ok, have at it, rip me a new one.

 

[GoldRusher]

In year 3, Dana is dealing with the fall-out of Bill Stewart not filling his classes... and having a bunch of the recruits he did bring wash out.

Dana, is now forced to go with the 8th youngest team in Div. I football.

Communication.... clock issues... will be part of the early learning curve for this year's team. They have replaced 8 starters on offense.

Most WVU fans understand this... acknowledge this. And, are patient with their team.

Has nothing to do with being a homer. Just understanding of the game....

BB hit the bulls eye here Dad, we have a group of young players and JC transfers because of the misses/transfers under Stew, IMO THE biggest reason he had to go (rest his soul).

Here is a quote from Ford and a pretty good illustration of why there is some miscommunication during the games when you have young pups learning on the fly:

In his post-game interview, Ford got a question about the difficulty of receiving signals from Dana and communicating in the offense.
Ford responded: "He tries to like, hide 'em, and stuff, and he's got little small fingers... And so, it gets kind of confusing..."

Now you tell me after reading Fords comment how far this kid is from even Geno's first year with Dana communication and maturitywise. Its just gonna take time and patience my friend. Dana is not rebuilding or reloading this program right now, he is pouring a new foundation. I say lets have the DH evaluation convo at the end of the 2015 year and see where we stand.
As for Efore? I'll ride along with you if you want to escort him out of Morgantown, I could not agree more with your evaluation of him.

 

[Mac_Bridger]

Mac, my biggest beef with Efore is that regardless of WHAT you are teaching, there should be SOME improvement over time. The guy can't coach at all, maybe he can keep players paid, get them to cut his grass for $500 a wek, and supply recruits with pussy, the guy is a drag on our program today.

I agree with ya on eFore and I think most of us do. I'm sure there is a reason or excuse as to why he was so bad. Inexperience for example. As you said, the defense did not improve from week to week. So at best the players did not buy into his coaching. And that's AT BEST.

As to the BE-B12 argument, I would say that UL and UCF could compete in the B12, and no one from the B12 could be said to be a lock to win the BE. YES, there are better NAMES in the B12, but is Texas good this year? Is KSU what they have been? The B12 is down this year, those gawdy offenses from the last couple years are not there this year.

That remains to be seen. I do believe that UofL would fare no better than WVU if transplanted into the Big XII. They would still finish in the middle of the pack. Very simple reason why, the same reason WVU is behind the curve, depth. The falloff from first team to second team is drastic for teams like WVU, UofL, UC. That's why WVU has so many holes this year, there was no depth last year. By the time you get into mid-late season your team is beat up. The deeper teams start to take over. How long would UofL stay unbeaten if Bridgewater went down? Teams like Oklahoma can sustain such losses and continue to win. We can't.

 

[WVUDAD]

MAC, the difference I see in the "big boys" and everyone else is in the non skill positions. If you look at the recruiting rankings most every year, Alabama, Ohio State, ND, etc get five star linemen, and a bunch of them. Most teams have really good to great skill guys, with a dropoff after the first guy. Where I really agree with the depth issue is up front, which IS what we saw against OU last week, they are deeper on the line with not much drop in talent.

 

[Mac_Bridger]

You seem to be fighting your own cause here Dad. If that's true then aren't they inherently better? Please show me where any of the BE schools has that advantage in the trenches. They don't. None of them do or ever have, including WVU. Even under Nehlen, we never had depth at OL or DL. So the only reason you ever "expected" to win was because the competition simply wasn't very good.

 

[WVUDAD]

MAC, I came to expect to win because we had coaches, especially in the Fraud era who thought outside the box, who came up with ideas to level the field with the big boys. Fraud's offensive schemes of recruiting linemen who were "too small" to play at the OSU's of the world, who were in MUCH better shape and could MOVE. Casteel did the same on defense, getting average to good recruits and coaching them up. Stewart hired Mullen, who had good ideas, and was starting to get the kids coached up, had a VERY complex offense that was not flashy, but worked well as long as turnovers were kept down. As I have said, if the BE was so bad, why did they have the best OOC record of any league? Why were they the only league with a winning record vs the SEC? Why did they win so many bowls?
MAC, in short, WVU winning 6 games a year is NOT going to pay the bills, or sell tickets. WVU fans are very fair weather and will not show up for a losing team. Look at what happened last year when the losses started.... 10,000 empty seats for Oklahoma, 8,000 for TCU, 9,000 for Kansas, after pretty well full houses for the winning part of the season. The B12 is NOT the SEC, all the games are winnable, Texas is a joke this year, Kansas and Ia ST??? nope TCU and TT are not as good as they were, OU, Baylor and OSU have dropped a notch as well. Yet again, WVU is in the least stable of the big conferences, a league with the brass sitting on their hands while other leagues make moves, grabbing teams that do not fit well to get numbers, all sounds familiar, doesnt it?

 

[JIMKOON]

WVUDAD, I'm sorry if you somehow believe that anyone in the Big 12 is sitting on anything. Texas and Oklahoma, as has been the case for years, are spit polishing their images, they know what they are doing. In my 33 years in Houston, I watched both of them weave and wind their way while bleeding schools like U of Houston, Rice, SMU and Texas A&M. My sole fear is that we are being used by those schools to tap into traditionally closed door regions of recruiting for the top players. I am left shaking my head at some of your past analogies that just don't match up to this team, these players and coaches. I mean we can beat this what if stuff to death, and it still doesn't ring well.

WVU has to protect itself, and that, in my opinion, is the reason why Oliver Luck is the AD. He is smarter than smart, and I have begun to understand that he is willing to accept the heated rhetoric being slung across Mountaineer nation, so that we can come out the other side, more stable financially, and a much stronger reputation. His course, will, and has, offended many traditionalists, I know for a while, I was, BUT, once you incorporate his actions with his desire to raise the bar of tradition, it is easy to grasp the future of WVU sports. With any change in life, there are hurdles. In sports, there will be some losses in the short term.

So, WVUDAD, for all your good thoughts, prior stats, in long past seasons, under this coach or that, serve nothing. The Big East is done, who we played in the OOC in the past, or what team here or there in the Big 12 is good or bad, makes absolutely no difference to the 2013 team at WVU playing right now. I have for two seasons now listened to the writings of many board posters and even for being an old fart, learned more to appreciate the now, without trying to influence it with the past.

 

[bbwvfan]

The Big East did not have the best OOC record of any league.

Here is a link to a terrific site for evaluating this sort of data...

College Football Trivia


You can look at the data of the BE once Miami, BC and VT were all gone in '05, and follow to 2012.

The BE had the 4th best OOC winning percentage during that time at .686. The SEC was top with .808 followed by our new conference at .750 then the B1G at .694.

 

[DCWV4life]

After the big three left the BE was only 5-5 in BCS bowls, not much better with them 8-7 and never appeared in the NC without those three....Only the ACC had fewer wins of the former Big 6 conf's.

 

[WVUDAD]

Good site, BB, looked it over, the almanac I had from last year stated the BE had the best OOC record. I will look again and see if it counted games differently or if one or the other leaves some out. I did notice that the site includes games that were later vacated, and the book doesnt, so it has PSU games for years as never played, and there are several SEC games that were vacated. I do know that the BE was much better than ESPN and casual fans gave credit for, and I also know, Jim, that four of the teams in the B12 were doing their best to leave just a few years ago, and that the B12 is the least stable, and by standing pat at 10 teams is leaving themselves vulnerable to be raided, just as the BE did by standing and doing nothing.