Joey Bosa to the Titans

[ATL96Steeler]

There's no guarantee Bosa will dominate. For all we know he's the next Clowney (I predicted that bust btw... not saying Bosa is a bust, but just saying). That said, there are some very high prospects at OL this year that are comparable to Bosa in terms of talent. The Titans are nowhere near competing for a Super Bowl at this point or at the start of next year. It'll take a few more years for that team to gel regardless. Might as well keep your QB as upright as possible (because the current tackles are sure as hell not doing that) and HOPEFULLY develop a solid bookend for future runs.

You and a bunch more people...HOU didn't help matters trying to convert him to an OLB...you really can't expect any rookie DL player to dominate can you?

 

[The Q]

If there is a loving and benevolent God in heaven, Ruston Webster won't be allowed to squander this pick. He'll end up going after a punter or 5' 9" wide receiver.

I say trade the pick, just like I did last season. Yeah, there doesn't appear to be a dominant RT available and it'd be tough to use that pick for such a position, though there is obvious need there.

if he passes on Bosa he should be fired.

Although he should've been fired for passing on that trade offer from the Eagles.

 

[HammerDown]

if he passes on Bosa he should be fired.

Although he should've been fired for passing on that trade offer from the Eagles.

He's abysmal.

 

[ducky]

This is why that whole blocked field goal thing to me was actually a loss for the Ravens. They are a franchise just stubborn enough to win enough games and push them out of those premium players.

That gets overplayed most years. Drafting in the #8-13 range really isn't that different than drafting in the #2-#7 range most years (the big exception is QB of course).

And this year really has the smell of that type of draft to me.

I haven't even really started to look at the prospects that closely but the little I have seen I am not sure the team drafting #10 isn't is a better position taking a guy like Shaq Lawson over the team looking to take Bosa @ #1.

 

[Money]

Bosa hasn't dominated this year playing cupcakes so he's far from guaranteed.

I think the Titans are so wide open that they need to probably take the most talented player available.

He's not a guarantee to be a dominant player, but he won't be a bust (injury factor aside).

 

[cdumler7]

There's no guarantee Bosa will dominate. For all we know he's the next Clowney (I predicted that bust btw... not saying Bosa is a bust, but just saying). That said, there are some very high prospects at OL this year that are comparable to Bosa in terms of talent. The Titans are nowhere near competing for a Super Bowl at this point or at the start of next year. It'll take a few more years for that team to gel regardless. Might as well keep your QB as upright as possible (because the current tackles are sure as hell not doing that) and HOPEFULLY develop a solid bookend for future runs.

Bosa to me is a whole different animal. With Clowney everybody could see the talent was there but the production wasn't always there. To me when picking in the top-5 I have always had 2 major criteria in being not only elite athleticism but also elite production. Clowney only had 1. Now I will say Clowney when healthy this year has actually done decent. His problem now in the NFL has been more health related than actual drive to play. Bosa though to me is a guy that just loves football and is very good at it. I honestly think he will be a huge game changer at the next level.

As for the OL I guess to me you will just have to learn to take the good with the bad. I think if you draft somebody with that 1st overall pick on the OL good chance Mariota is still taking a ton of hits in year two. I just would rather go spend a bit of money at get a rental at the position for a year and draft a guy maybe in that 2nd or 3rd round that you think you can develop.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Bosa to me is a whole different animal. With Clowney everybody could see the talent was there but the production wasn't always there. To me when picking in the top-5 I have always had 2 major criteria in being not only elite athleticism but also elite production. Clowney only had 1. Now I will say Clowney when healthy this year has actually done decent. His problem now in the NFL has been more health related than actual drive to play. Bosa though to me is a guy that just loves football and is very good at it. I honestly think he will be a huge game changer at the next level.

As for the OL I guess to me you will just have to learn to take the good with the bad. I think if you draft somebody with that 1st overall pick on the OL good chance Mariota is still taking a ton of hits in year two. I just would rather go spend a bit of money at get a rental at the position for a year and draft a guy maybe in that 2nd or 3rd round that you think you can develop.

Let's stop the Clowney comparisons.... I wasn't comparing Clowney to Bosa or injury/work ethic blah blah blah. My point was Bosa is not guaranteed to be Reggie White 2.0. That said, the Titans' pass rush and D is in a decent place. The O-Line is not. There are prospects at both the O and D-Line position that can be regarded as a #1 overall pick. Check your brain on that for a minute and tell me what the smarter pick is.

I don't care if Mariota takes hits next year... he's already taking a ton of them anyway. What matters is years beyond and getting a POSSIBLE top tier OT to hopefully re-surge Mariota's career (mind you I called Mariota a bust in the first place) OR a new draft QB in a few years makes sense to me.

 

[cdumler7]

That gets overplayed most years. Drafting in the #8-13 range really isn't that different than drafting in the #2-#7 range most years (the big exception is QB of course).

And this year really has the smell of that type of draft to me.

I haven't even really started to look at the prospects that closely but the little I have seen I am not sure the team drafting #10 isn't is a better position taking a guy like Shaq Lawson over the team looking to take Bosa @ #1.

Oh I think it can get overplayed some but to me if you are going to have a terrible year I would rather be in that top-7 range than middle of the pack. Teams still have to go out and draft well though to make it count. Like I said the problem is we see the same teams in those top spots because they either don't do well in the evaluation process or just do not know how to develop players very well. I mean look at the Raiders for example for many years drafting in the top-10. Many of those players when they left the Raiders went on to have decent careers for other teams. Makes me think with all the chaos of coaching changes and just not great developers on the coaching staff that those players had very stunted careers because of where they went not because they were draft busts.

 

[cdumler7]

Let's stop the Clowney comparisons.... I wasn't comparing Clowney to Bosa or injury/work ethic blah blah blah. My point was Bosa is not guaranteed to be Reggie White 2.0. That said, the Titans' pass rush and D is in a decent place. The O-Line is not. There are prospects at both the O and D-Line position that can be regarded as a #1 overall pick. Check your brain on that for a minute and tell me what the smarter pick is.

I don't care if Mariota takes hits next year... he's already taking a ton of them anyway. What matters is years beyond and getting a POSSIBLE top tier OT to hopefully re-surge Mariota's career (mind you I called Mariota a bust in the first place) OR a new draft QB in a few years makes sense to me.

I agree the bigger hole is on the OL than the DL. I'm not arguing that one bit. To me though I look at the top tier OL prospects and not sure I see that great OL player that will hold down the Left Side. Now given I haven't done as much research as usual but I have watched a bit of at least the top-2 guys in Stanley and Tunsil.

For Stanley he has a huge technique issue. He gets a nice frame underneath himself but he gets to leaning forward too much and drops his head when engaging. DL players are just going to swat his arms to the side and have a free lane to Mariota if that doesn't get corrected in a hurry. With Tunsil he has the problem many OT's have coming out of college in he looks for the big punch to knock guys off their route. The problem is again this can lead to some lunging and more athletic DL players can just run around the punch. So while they are two great prospects and I wouldn't fault the Titans for going with them at all I guess I just don't see that can't miss LT for the next 10 years type guy.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I agree the bigger hole is on the OL than the DL. I'm not arguing that one bit. To me though I look at the top tier OL prospects and not sure I see that great OL player that will hold down the Left Side. Now given I haven't done as much research as usual but I have watched a bit of at least the top-2 guys in Stanley and Tunsil.

For Stanley he has a huge technique issue. He gets a nice frame underneath himself but he gets to leaning forward too much and drops his head when engaging. DL players are just going to swat his arms to the side and have a free lane to Mariota if that doesn't get corrected in a hurry. With Tunsil he has the problem many OT's have coming out of college in he looks for the big punch to knock guys off their route. The problem is again this can lead to some lunging and more athletic DL players can just run around the punch. So while they are two great prospects and I wouldn't fault the Titans for going with them at all I guess I just don't see that can't miss LT for the next 10 years type guy.

Eh to some degree these guys all have issues. Bosa isn't as good in run support and he'll get stood up by more athletic OTs in the NFL until he develops some pass rush moves. Bosa has relied on complete athleticism and second effort to get to QBs in college. Doesn't work as well against NFL caliber players.

All said, Bosa is the sexy pick. Has the NFL bloodlines, pass rush specialist, etc. Tunsil is a mirror on the O-Line as well though... extremely athletic, has mirror'd everyone brilliantly in pass coverage and gets under DEs (good knee bend) which is HUUUGE in pass coverage. His big weakness is run blocking.

 

[ducky]

Bosa to me is a whole different animal. With Clowney everybody could see the talent was there but the production wasn't always there.

The games I have seen Bosa this year hasn't been all that productive (part of the reason I haven't liked him as much as some who are really high on him). But I have only seen a couple of games so maybe I just watched the wrong games.

And if you look at their college careers, Bosa and Clowney had almost identical production. Great soph season followed by lesser junior years when teams started to game plan for them a little more. And the difference of course is that Bosa plays in a much lesser conference (the big 10 is awful right).

 

[The Q]

I'll be floored if it's not Bosa or Tunsil.

 

[tducey]

If I'm the Titans I go with Tunsil, they need to protect Mariota going forward.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

if he passes on Bosa he should be fired.

Although he should've been fired for passing on that trade offer from the Eagles.

Mariota either has to lead TN to a SB win, or have them be a regular playoff caliber team for the next 5 yrs or so for that (non trade) to make any sense.

 

[cdumler7]

The games I have seen Bosa this year hasn't been all that productive (part of the reason I haven't liked him as much as some who are really high on him). But I have only seen a couple of games so maybe I just watched the wrong games.

And if you look at their college careers, Bosa and Clowney had almost identical production. Great soph season followed by lesser junior years when teams started to game plan for them a little more. And the difference of course is that Bosa plays in a much lesser conference (the big 10 is awful right).

To me it is more what you see in the effort side of things. Clowney by far probably the most athletic player I have ever seen for his size/weight combination. Bosa does not quite match up athletically (although still very athletic in his own right). With Bosa I just don't have the red flags of a guy who has quit on his team. Again when Clowney has been healthy and played he has actually done decent in the NFL. His problem is he hasn't been on the field a whole lot. I guess I just don't worry about that with Bosa. I see him being willing to play hurt like many of the top players in the league do.

As for this year Bosa definitely has taken on a lot more double teams as teams have worked to eliminate him from the game. What I like though is he seems to have figured it out a bit more as the season has progressed. He has found ways to impact the game even while being double teamed most plays.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I agree the bigger hole is on the OL than the DL. I'm not arguing that one bit. To me though I look at the top tier OL prospects and not sure I see that great OL player that will hold down the Left Side. Now given I haven't done as much research as usual but I have watched a bit of at least the top-2 guys in Stanley and Tunsil.

For Stanley he has a huge technique issue. He gets a nice frame underneath himself but he gets to leaning forward too much and drops his head when engaging. DL players are just going to swat his arms to the side and have a free lane to Mariota if that doesn't get corrected in a hurry. With Tunsil he has the problem many OT's have coming out of college in he looks for the big punch to knock guys off their route. The problem is again this can lead to some lunging and more athletic DL players can just run around the punch. So while they are two great prospects and I wouldn't fault the Titans for going with them at all I guess I just don't see that can't miss LT for the next 10 years type guy.

D...PA stat looks okay, but imo a bit of fools gold because of the schedule...this is the 1st season with LeBeau on staff...they've done a decent job of converting Morgan (4-3 DE) to an OLB and Orapko has been a big lift FA. If the new staff decides to retain LeBeau, I think you can expect to see them continue to build on that DEF...unlike some of you guys I don't follow these college guys much, but if Bosa projects to be anything like Cam Heyward (another OSU DL product), I think I would take him. If he's not, I might take Hammer's advice and trade back and take the NT from Bama...Robinson.

O...With a rookie QB/young OL, you can't have a knee jerk reaction to the sack total. That's just part of the learning curve in the NFL. The Titans have already invested major into the OL with Warmack and Lewan in '13 and '14...imo another high pick on a OL is not going to change anything...I would spend some FA money...get Mack from CLE to play C and a B level FA with some experience to play RT and if RG needs upgrading look later in the draft...they also need to go out and invest in a good OL coach to get those guys working as a unit.

 

[Bolts]

 

[cdumler7]

D...PA stat looks okay, but imo a bit of fools gold because of the schedule...this is the 1st season with LeBeau on staff...they've done a decent job of converting Morgan (4-3 DE) to an OLB and Orapko has been a big lift FA. If the new staff decides to retain LeBeau, I think you can expect to see them continue to build on that DEF...unlike some of you guys I don't follow these college guys much, but if Bosa projects to be anything like Cam Heyward (another OSU DL product), I think I would take him. If he's not, I might take Hammer's advice and trade back and take the NT from Bama...Robinson.

O...With a rookie QB/young OL, you can't have a knee jerk reaction to the sack total. That's just part of the learning curve in the NFL. The Titans have already invested major into the OL with Warmack and Lewan in '13 and '14...imo another high pick on a OL is not going to change anything...I would spend some FA money...get Mack from CLE to play C and a B level FA with some experience to play RT and if RG needs upgrading look later in the draft...they also need to go out and invest in a good OL coach to get those guys working as a unit.

These are exactly my thoughts. If you really want to protect your young QB money to me speaks a whole lot louder than draft sometimes. Just like with the rookie QB and having him hold onto the ball way too long you are going to have those rookie mistakes from an OL where he is going to get his QB blown up. It is just part of it. Now I can understand the idea of investing in both of their futures for the idea that next year is still a big time rebuilding year and the hopes is in Mariota's 3rd year and the LT/RT (depending what you do with Lewan) then being able to build a power house offense.

Honestly need to see what they do at the HC position. If they bring in say Kelly then yeah he will invest in both FA and the Draft heavy on offense. They bring in a more defensive minded guy then I think Bosa is your guy. To me defense has proven to be a better indicator of winning championships. I would much rather lean trying to build a great defense than a great offense.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

These are exactly my thoughts. If you really want to protect your young QB money to me speaks a whole lot louder than draft sometimes. Just like with the rookie QB and having him hold onto the ball way too long you are going to have those rookie mistakes from an OL where he is going to get his QB blown up. It is just part of it. Now I can understand the idea of investing in both of their futures for the idea that next year is still a big time rebuilding year and the hopes is in Mariota's 3rd year and the LT/RT (depending what you do with Lewan) then being able to build a power house offense.

Honestly need to see what they do at the HC position. If they bring in say Kelly then yeah he will invest in both FA and the Draft heavy on offense. They bring in a more defensive minded guy then I think Bosa is your guy. To me defense has proven to be a better indicator of winning championships. I would much rather lean trying to build a great defense than a great offense.

Boy, you're so right...Thomas Dimitroff (ATL) should be a case study on how not to build a football team...when you get to the playoffs, 100% of the time, you're going to be facing a decent if not very good OFC...you have to be able to get stops on DEF...NE took an outstanding OFC into the SB undefeated and left with a loss against a great front 4 backed up by solid players.

I like to use this kid as an example, PIT has this 6'9" kid (bulked up to about 290-300 now) a former Army vet Alejandro Villanueva...undrafted rookie...Mike Munchak...(HOF OL, former HC, now OL coach in PIT) said early on in camp that he was a keeper, I can work with this guy...Beachum, LT (another UDFA who was probably the best OL on the squad) went down with a season ending injuries...AVill has stepped in. Yeah, he's given up some sacks, but the other 4 vets have brought this kid along very quickly.

Beachum declined the Steelers offer before the season wanting to test his value via FA. He probably wouldn't get the job back even if he came back at the Steelers price now. The major point here...if AVill was surrounded by 1st and 2nd yr guys, most likely he would still be struggling mightily.

A great OFC might get you into the playoffs quicker, but you're not going to win anything until the DEF is on par.

 

[cdumler7]

Boy, you're so right...Thomas Dimitroff (ATL) should be a case study on how not to build a football team...when you get to the playoffs, 100% of the time, you're going to be facing a decent if not very good OFC...you have to be able to get stops on DEF...NE took an outstanding OFC into the SB undefeated and left with a loss against a great front 4 backed up by solid players.

I like to use this kid as an example, PIT has this 6'9" kid (bulked up to about 290-300 now) a former Army vet Alejandro Villanueva...undrafted rookie...Mike Munchak...(HOF OL, former HC, now OL coach in PIT) said early on in camp that he was a keeper, I can work with this guy...Beachum, LT (another UDFA who was probably the best OL on the squad) went down with a season ending injuries...AVill has stepped in. Yeah, he's given up some sacks, but the other 4 vets have brought this kid along very quickly.

Beachum declined the Steelers offer before the season wanting to test his value via FA. He probably wouldn't get the job back even if he came back at the Steelers price now. The major point here...if AVill was surrounded by 1st and 2nd yr guys, most likely he would still be struggling mightily.

A great OFC might get you into the playoffs quicker, but you're not going to win anything until the DEF is on par.

Just looking at some stats. Teams in the top-10 for total defense only 2 of them have a losing record. Those are Tennessee and Dallas. If we extend that to scoring defense every team in the top-10 has a winning record right now. Considering only 15 teams in the league have a winning record right now I think that should show that a great defense can lead to very good things. And like you said it is not only about having quality starters but having quality back ups as well. Getting Bosa improves both the starting line up but then pushes one guy down the line to being a very high quality back up.

Throw in just look at last year's draft...Brandon Scherff was the first guy taken. They moved him to RG. He has done pretty well but playing Guard definitely helps to cover up some issues.
Flowers has the lowest grade of even 1st round pick according to PFF.
DJ Humphries last I knew wasn't even starting for his team.
Cameron Erving has really struggled
Laken Tomlinson has improved but started out terrible this year.
Ogbuehi hasn't played yet because of injury
Andrus Peat has been moved into Guard

So of all the OL players taken in the 1st round this last year the ones doing decent had to be moved to guard and the ones playing OT are among some of the worst. Again this isn't to say don't use a 1st round pick on the OL but it is to show the idea of expecting them to day 1 step in and be a blind side protector and do well is asking a lot.

I mean we can go back further but since the new CBA was signed I would say Matt Kalil was the only player to step in and do really well his rookie year playing at the Tackle position from the 1st round. All others played average or just down right terrible. Now before the CBA yet I can show you plenty that had great years. The switch with the CBA to shorter and less contact practices allowed has hurt the OL maybe more than any other position on the field.