JDR

[skinsdad62]

I noted the tenor of this conversation and didn't want to further contribute to a conversation that I deemed beneath human dignity or at best seemed headed toward where it is now, insufficiently informative and barely a discussion. That said, I'll make another attempt to appeal to your sense of fairness. I took a few days to gather my thoughts and here are the results of that pause.

The Republican and Democratic parties have fallen into a state of disrepair and showed that both major parties are failing to do the jobs that they were voted into office to do. Useful governance requires more than pitting one against the other in an attempt to cast blame for the atrophy that those in power have created and those who vote for their support. It’s apparent that division sells, but let me ask… under what circumstance in your life has the political structure actually satisfactorily dealt with any of the major or minor problems that we face in a manner that advances the general welfare of the country?

Our current national posture reflects the single-minded zeal the two dominant parties have employed for the past 60 or so years to preserve their iron-fisted control over our nation's political destiny. They may swap positions but the underlying goal for Republicans and Democrats is always the restoration of presumed diminished power, to the detriment of forging a national consensus on the critical issues of the day.

I’m not sure what this country values any longer. Still, if you’re able to identify them, three days past the 4th of July, and you’re taking an honest, clear-eyed look at it from sea to polluted sea, it will show that our national values, or what remains of them, ring hollow. Poverty, gun violence, abortion, health care, pollution, environment, race/racism, energy, inflation, deflation, stagnation, unfettered influence of wealth, individualism, group think politics, conservatism, progressivism, immigration, religion, marriage, education, spending, welfare, birth, death, taxes, war, and life, in general, all have one thing in common within our borders… each in some manner touches our lives and if there are going to be solutions to them, a more responsive system of governance will be required. That said, it perhaps has never been more important to ask: What kind of country do you want to live in, work in, and raise a family in? What kind of America do you believe in?

I’ll say this about you all if you enjoy, support, vote for, and defend the current two-party system that tells you to blame, vote against, be afraid of, and/or foster division, don’t blame those that represent you, YOU’RE THE PROBLEM.!!

I’m sure that, as you read this one or more of you are considering a response that in essence insists that I leave this country if I don’t like it, but that speaks more about you than it will ever about me because of love of country, in fact, love alone isn’t just something you say… it requires action and in that sense, I’ll stack my life endeavors vs. any and all opposition on this board that supposes more contributions and sacrifices towards defending and improving the lives of others.

Can we disagree? Absolutely! In fact, I insist upon it but what’s happening now isn’t a discussion for purpose, it’s more of the same shit that we see in normalized unproductive political discourse. Take a momentary pause and ask yourself… do you really want to prove posters that say that we’re not able to have a constructive discussion of political differences, correct? Perhaps, it’s too late and the dis-ease in the country and what we have here are already fatally cancerous.

fine, thats all nice , has nothing to do with the EC and why its in place

 

[gkekoa]

Poverty, gun violence, abortion, health care, pollution, environment, race/racism, energy, inflation, deflation, stagnation, unfettered influence of wealth, individualism, group think politics, conservatism, progressivism, immigration, religion, marriage, education, spending, welfare, birth, death, taxes, war, and life

Poverty does not really exist in the US. I have seen poverty, and nothing that we have here exists.

Violence is the problem. If you want to look at the problem, look at the actual numbers. Where does most violence occur? What is the weapon of choice? Who is actually committing the acts?

Abortion is murder if you believe in science.

Health care is not an issue. Can we make the cost less? Yes we can…simply allow for competition among states.

Pollution in the US is among the lowest in the developed world.

Environment is among the best in the world.

Race/racism is not an actual issue. It exists but does not dictate life in the US.

Energy would not be an issue if democrats would get out of the way.

Inflation is a problem because of the Democratic Party.

Individualism is not a problem. We should all be free to be who we are. We should not be forced to acknowledge your delusions though…not you but “peoples” delusions.

Immigration is an issue. We have roughly 30 million people in the country illegally and a certain party keeps encouraging more.

Religion…we could use much more. Most of the killings in this country are from those not affiliated.

Marriage…we need more stable relationships. That is choice from individuals.

Education…stop social indoctrination and stick to the subject matter.

Spending…allow people to spend their own money instead of stealing it.

Welfare…do away with it.



Influence of wealth is a problem. Audit every individual in Congress, the executive, and judiciary annually to ensure their pockets are not being lined…do this for another ten years after they leave office as well.

 

[skinsdad62]

Poverty does not really exist in the US. I have seen poverty, and nothing that we have here exists.

Violence is the problem. If you want to look at the problem, look at the actual numbers. Where does most violence occur? What is the weapon of choice? Who is actually committing the acts?

Abortion is murder if you believe in science.

Health care is not an issue. Can we make the cost less? Yes we can…simply allow for competition among states.

Pollution in the US is among the lowest in the developed world.

Environment is among the best in the world.

Race/racism is not an actual issue. It exists but does not dictate life in the US.

Energy would not be an issue if democrats would get out of the way.

Inflation is a problem because of the Democratic Party.

Individualism is not a problem. We should all be free to be who we are. We should not be forced to acknowledge your delusions though…not you but “peoples” delusions.

Immigration is an issue. We have roughly 30 million people in the country illegally and a certain party keeps encouraging more.

Religion…we could use much more. Most of the killings in this country are from those not affiliated.

Marriage…we need more stable relationships. That is choice from individuals.

Education…stop social indoctrination and stick to the subject matter.

Spending…allow people to spend their own money instead of stealing it.

Welfare…do away with it.



Influence of wealth is a problem. Audit every individual in Congress, the executive, and judiciary annually to ensure their pockets are not being lined…do this for another ten years after they leave office as well.

bottom line is these problems are caused by people who have no faith in anything , people are selfish and want what they want the instant they want it .

yeah i find it funny how we are told how fucked up we are but these people have never left this country want to tell me what poverty is

we have it pretty good in the US with more rights then any nation on earth yet we are told we are fucked up

we lack an educated class of people with little free thinking

 

[dcrising]

and ???

i take it you don't see the economic fallout of california leaving union in that hypothetical situation.

What if California seceded from the US?

No matter how US politics shook out, however, losing California would deliver a significant economic blow to the newly diminished nation. California is the world’s fifth largest economy – bigger than that of the entire UK – grossing $2.7 trillion in 2017.
It also contributes more tax revenue to the US federal government than any other state, subsidising “all sorts of Republican states, for which it simply receives abuse in return”, O’Leary says.
How big the overall impact would be on the US economy would depend on whether leaders struck up free trade agreements or if they imposed tariffs and other trade barriers. No matter what, though, the US would not escape unscathed.
“The dollar would tank,” O’Leary says. “The euro and Chinese yuan could replace it as the global currency.”

 

[skinsdad62]

i take it you don't see the economic fallout of california leaving union in that hypothetical situation.

What if California seceded from the US?

nope ,

 

[dcrising]

nope ,

good to know!

 

[gkekoa]

i take it you don't see the economic fallout of california leaving union in that hypothetical situation.

What if California seceded from the US?

Again, if California were to secede, what would happen to their rich? Much of that money comes from athletes and entertainers who rely on people throughout the rest of the country to make their money. Another huge chunk comes from the ultra wealthy who would quickly move to the larger and safer country.

You have to remember, just because money is in a state doesn’t mean they earned their money in that state.

 

[dcrising]

Again, if California were to secede, what would happen to their rich? Much of that money comes from athletes and entertainers who rely on people throughout the rest of the country to make their money. Another huge chunk comes from the ultra wealthy who would quickly move to the larger and safer country.

You have to remember, just because money is in a state doesn’t mean they earned their money in that state.

you assume everything that wasn't nailed down would leave. I personally would not make that assumption.

 

[gkekoa]

you assume everything that wasn't nailed down would leave. I personally would not make that assumption.

What would California use for energy?

Where does California make their money?

Why is California already hemorrhaging money people?

Why are big money people such as Musk and Mcconaughy leaving?

 

[chillerdab]

No sooner does Sty offer up a rational, well though out post that clearly illustrates what he thinks is happening on this thread (as a microcosim of our country), than he has his own ideals proven to be accurate by the postings of gkekoa and skinsdad.

Sty, I thought your post was spot on. I also think that we’re probably too far gone in this country for meaningful course-correction as evidenced by how lock-step, how fearful, how angry, and how devoid of self reflection some people on this thread, and in our country seemingly are.

There are certain truths that BOTH SIDES need to agree on, that have literally nothing to do with where you get your news from, and only one group of people are interested in getting to that common understanding.

One cant compromise in a vacuum.

 

[gkekoa]

No sooner does Sty offer up a rational, well though out post that clearly illustrates what he thinks is happening on this thread (as a microcosim of our country), than he has his own ideals proven to be accurate by the postings of gkekoa and skinsdad.

Sty, I thought your post was spot on. I also think that we’re probably too far gone in this country for meaningful course-correction as evidenced by how lock-step, how fearful, how angry, and how devoid of self reflection some people on this thread, and in our country seemingly are.

There are certain truths that BOTH SIDES need to agree on, that have literally nothing to do with where you get your news from, and only one group of people are interested in getting to that common understanding.

One cant compromise in a vacuum.

One can’t compromise when the other refuses to see their own faults.

 

[chillerdab]

One can’t compromise when the other refuses to see their own faults.

Oh please.
You can’t name a single time in all the years of your postings that you’ve ever been wrong about anything or apologized.

Prove me wrong: what’s one thing you can admit that you have been wrong about on the political threads on this message board?

 

[gkekoa]

Oh please.
You can’t name a single time in all the years of your postings that you’ve ever been wrong about anything or apologized.

Prove me wrong: what’s one thing you can admit that you have been wrong about on the political threads on this message board?

I post the facts.

I also post opinion. My opinions have not been proven wrong but that doesn’t mean I am correct. Feel free to show where I am wrong and I will admit to it.

 

[chillerdab]

Everyone feels like they post the facts. Dean feels like he posts facts. Sty feels like he posts facts. I feel like I post facts.

Everyone feels like they also post opinions. You feel like you post opinions. So does skinzfan, sportster, and skinsdad. I post opinions.

You dont feel any stronger than anybody else that your facts are facts.

What you cant do - literally cant do, apparently - is admit that you’re wrong about anything, just like skinsdad, and your pigheadedness is exactly what is wrong with America in microcosm. One side is looking to build consensus and seek compromise and your side is emphatically not.

 

[gkekoa]

Everyone feels like they post the facts. Dean feels like he posts facts. Sty feels like he posts facts. I feel like I post facts.

Everyone feels like they also post opinions. You feel like you post opinions. So does skinzfan, sportster, and skinsdad. I post opinions.

You dont feel any stronger than anybody else that your facts are facts.

What you cant do - literally cant do, apparently - is admit that you’re wrong about anything, just like skinsdad, and your pigheadedness is exactly what is wrong with America in microcosm. One side is looking to build consensus and seek compromise and your side is emphatically not.

I post actual numbers from credible sources…also known as facts.

When I post my opinion, I back it up with facts.

Frequently, when others post their opinion, they back it up with other people’s opinions. When I ask for a policy that makes things better, they can’t name a single policy that did so.

 

[chillerdab]

Everybody posts their actual numbers from creidble sources, and calls them facts. Everybody posts their opinions backed up with facts - not other people’s opinions.

When some people post their data backed up with credible news sources - also known as facts - others decry those sources as fake news, untrustworthy, or biased. They use their opinion to slander a news source that has been dealing in facts for longer than they’ve been alive because it disagrees with their opinions, disguised as facts.

 

[skinsdad62]

Everybody posts their actual numbers from creidble sources, and calls them facts. Everybody posts their opinions backed up with facts - not other people’s opinions.

When some people post their data backed up with credible news sources - also known as facts - others decry those sources as fake news, untrustworthy, or biased. They use their opinion to slander a news source that has been dealing in facts for longer than they’ve been alive because it disagrees with their opinions, disguised as facts.

because they are

 

[skinsdad62]

Could have sworn article 2 of the constitution covered this in the 1st place, state legislatures are in charge of voting rules not judges or Secretaries of State . Pennsylvania will be next

 

[dcrising]

What would California use for energy?

Where does California make their money?

Why is California already hemorrhaging money people?

Why are big money people such as Musk and Mcconaughy leaving?

my guess in this hypothetical situation they can negotiate with any company they want.

Agriculture

politics

politics

 

[skinsdad62]

my guess in this hypothetical situation they can negotiate with any company they want.

Agriculture

politics

politics

Ca could do well as a separate country . I could care less if they become one . It’s all pretty basic , if small states have little or no say on how their interests are taken care of nationally then there is no incentive to be in the union . Hence you have a senate ( all equal rep ) a house ( pop based) and an EC to insure all states have a say based on Delegates . Every state wants their best interests taken care of large or small population ones

The constitution was written that way for a reason and it works .
Win your POV in the arena of ideas , win hearts and minds , stop trying to change rules because your POV didn’t win out .