Jason Collins and Mark Jackson

[ColinCoby]

Confident, quick-witted and empathic, but never arrogant. Please go easy on the name-calling. It brings down the level of any debate.

Heath, I admire how you handled this. The thread could have been hijacked by name calling between you and Nolan; instead, you remained level-headed and classy (like always).

[/B]

I never understood how that was possible. Either you believe in an omnipotent god and believe in the Bible as being his word or you don't. Unless you think the Bible is one of the great works of fiction as I do, I don't see how you can call yourself a Christian and then say you think homosexuality is OK since your bible calls it an abomination. You are simple picking and choosing what is acceptable to you.

There are a growing number of Christians who do not view the Bible as literally God's word. They believe it is a book that CAN bring one closer to God nevertheless needs to be read with a deep understanding of the time and place it was written, and with an understanding of the intent of each author.

Because of this, I can feel completely comfortable with calling myself a follower of Christ while not seeing anything wrong with homosexuality, women speaking in church, eating shellfish, etc.

Of course, many Christians, like Jackson, believe that the only way one can be a true Christian is to follow the Bible literally. They feel they have no choice but to reject gay rights. Unfortunate. As far as I can tell, Jackson is a compassionate guy who probably has no real animosity against Collins or anyone else who is gay (of course, I could be giving the guy too much credit here).

BTW: almost all Christians can be accused of "picking and choosing," including "conservative" Christians. I have a Baptist aunt who goes out of her way to rail against my gay brother's "lifestyle," but who also happens to be divorced. Jesus never said a word about homosexuality but was quite clear about divorce. (besides, according to Paul, I shouldn't really have listen to her anyway).

 

[TobyTyler]

Which is why I said he was a hypocrite. But he was honest about his feelings, which I respected.

I just don't like the fact that Jackson danced around the issue and hid behind religion to veil his true feelings.

Fair enough, but do you at least understand why he felt he had to do that in this political climate where every thought a public figure utters is examined 50ways to Sunday.

 

[TobyTyler]

Heath, I admire how you handled this. The thread could have been hijacked by name calling between you and Nolan; instead, you remained level-headed and classy (like always).



There are a growing number of Christians who do not view the Bible as literally God's word. They believe it is a book that CAN bring one closer to God nevertheless needs to be read with a deep understanding of the time and place it was written, and with an understanding of the intent of each author.

Because of this, I can feel completely comfortable with calling myself a follower of Christ while not seeing anything wrong with homosexuality, women speaking in church, eating shellfish, etc.

Of course, many Christians, like Jackson, believe that the only way one can be a true Christian is to follow the Bible literally. They feel they have no choice but to reject gay rights. Unfortunate. As far as I can tell, Jackson is a compassionate guy who probably has no real animosity against Collins or anyone else who is gay (of course, I could be giving the guy too much credit here).

BTW: almost all Christians can be accused of "picking and choosing," including "conservative" Christians. I have a Baptist aunt who goes out of her way to rail against my gay brother's "lifestyle," but who also happens to be divorced. Jesus never said a word about homosexuality but was quite clear about divorce. (besides, according to Paul, I shouldn't really have listen to her anyway).

It is either the word of god or it isn't. Its as simple as that. You cannot pick and choose which parts you think were self-servingly written by the political and church leaders of the time and which weren't. I'm amazed at how Christians can delude themselves into believing that they can do this. Spiritualism is much different than being religious in my opinion. That way one is allowed to decide for himself what is true and what isn't and which paths he wants to follow and which ones he doesn't. Having said that, I much prefer the type of "Christian" you profess to be rather than the "bible is the literal word of god" ones.

 

[ColinCoby]

It is either the word of god or it isn't. Its as simple as that. You cannot pick and choose which parts you think were self-servingly written by the political and church leaders of the time and which weren't. I'm amazed at how Christians can delude themselves into believing that they can do this. Spiritualism is much different than being religious in my opinion. That way one is allowed to decide for himself what is true and what isn't and which paths he wants to follow and which ones he doesn't. Having said that, I much prefer the type of "Christian" you profess to be rather than the "bible is the literal word of god" ones.

There are many Christians who would view me as delusional as well. But I do not believe the Bible is literally God's word. And I don't think viewing it as such is what determines who is a Christian and who is not.

Do you love your enemies? Fight for justice? Care for the widows? The poor? These questions are 100 times more important IMO than "Do you think gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry?"

 

[TobyTyler]

There are many Christians who would view me as delusional as well. But I do not believe the Bible is literally God's word. And I don't think viewing it as such is what determines who is a Christian and who is not.

Do you love your enemies? Fight for justice? Care for the widows? The poor? These questions are 100 times more important IMO than "Do you think gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry?"[/QUOTE]

Exactly, and those are commendable ideals but, may I ask, why do you label yourself a Christian then? I don't see the point. You can espouse those things and just be a good person. Do you believe that Christ is your path to eternal salvation? That is what makes a person a Christian in my understanding.

 

[ColinCoby]

There are many Christians who would view me as delusional as well. But I do not believe the Bible is literally God's word. And I don't think viewing it as such is what determines who is a Christian and who is not.

Do you love your enemies? Fight for justice? Care for the widows? The poor? These questions are 100 times more important IMO than "Do you think gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry?"[/QUOTE]

Exactly, and those are commendable ideals but, may I ask, why do you label yourself a Christian then? I don't see the point. You can espouse those things and just be a good person. Do you believe that Christ is your path to eternal salvation? That is what makes a person a Christian in my understanding.

I believe the goal for me is to trust in God; and for me there is no better model in doing this than Jesus.

One could argue: well, don't Muslims surrender to God's (Allah's) will? Don't Jews believe in trusting in G-d as well? Of course, which is why when I meet a compassionate Muslim or Jew (which is the overwhelming majority in both faiths), I see them as brothers or sisters on the journey.

I don't get caught up in beliefs; in that regard, I guess I am far more similar to most Buddhists and Jews I've met. It's how you live your life, how much compassion you show toward your fellow human being, that counts the most (and not believing "correctly") If a person's faith (or lack of faith) is not helping him/her to live a more compassionate life, then perhaps another path should be taken.

Edit: to answer your question, without faith I find I can become an irritable, judgmental ass; with faith, a more peaceful, wiser person. I don't believe my path is necessarily the best or only one...

 

[TobyTyler]

I believe the goal for me is to trust in God; and for me there is no better model in doing this than Jesus.

One could argue: well, don't Muslims surrender to God's (Allah's) will? Don't Jews believe in trusting in G-d as well? Of course, which is why when I meet a compassionate Muslim or Jew (which is the overwhelming majority in both faiths), I see them as brothers or sisters on the journey.

I don't get caught up in beliefs; in that regard, I guess I am far more similar to most Buddhists and Jews I've met. It's how you live your life, how much compassion you show toward your fellow human being, that counts the most (and not believing "correctly") If a person's faith (or lack of faith) is not helping him/her to live a more compassionate life, then perhaps another path should be taken.

Edit: to answer your question, without faith I find I can become an irritable, judgmental ass; with faith, a more peaceful, wiser person. I don't believe my path is necessarily the best or only one...

Fair enough.

 

[Heathbar012]

I believe the goal for me is to trust in God; and for me there is no better model in doing this than Jesus.

One could argue: well, don't Muslims surrender to God's (Allah's) will? Don't Jews believe in trusting in G-d as well? Of course, which is why when I meet a compassionate Muslim or Jew (which is the overwhelming majority in both faiths), I see them as brothers or sisters on the journey.

I don't get caught up in beliefs; in that regard, I guess I am far more similar to most Buddhists and Jews I've met. It's how you live your life, how much compassion you show toward your fellow human being, that counts the most (and not believing "correctly") If a person's faith (or lack of faith) is not helping him/her to live a more compassionate life, then perhaps another path should be taken.

Edit: to answer your question, without faith I find I can become an irritable, judgmental ass; with faith, a more peaceful, wiser person. I don't believe my path is necessarily the best or only one...

This may be the most beautiful thing that I have ever read on a Sports Message Board. It's not like you had a lot of competition, but kudos, anyway. I guess this conversation didn't completely devolve, Cam.