Isn't Every Call a "Judgement" Call?

[NEhomer]

Interesting comment from Matt Chattam on the whole replay issue. Some things aren't reviewable because they're judgement calls but he asks, what isn't a judgement call? Did the ball pass the plane of the goal line? Judgement call. Did the receiver get two feet down in bounds? Judgement call. Was he down before he fumbled? Judgement call.

I think it's a great point. I think everything should be reviewable and the coach loses a time out each time he loses a challenge. Simple and straight forward. This reviewing of all scoring plays and turnovers while allowing a game changing screw up to stand makes no sense.

 

[Mondio]

I don't think they should change a thing about reviews. More rules aren't going to create more clarity. They aren't going to remove "the human element" because there is ALWAYS a human element. Replay officials don't get it "right" all the time either.

I'd hate to see PI be reviewable again. Let them play and if it's blatant enough to warrant a call, then make the call, if you miss it, so be it. Let's be serious, by the definition of PI, they could call it on every single passing play in every game. Let them play.

I think this year has been far and away better than previous years in terms of PI calls. They seemed to let them play a lot more and thus we were treated to better football. I got so sick of seeing balls just thrown up for the heck of it and getting some cheap ass penalty on a poorly thrown ball and the teams were rewarded for it.

I just think back to the last GB and Bear game. On that 4th down play they scored on Jordy was absolutely leveled and there was no flag. Had we not scored a TD I would be bitching about it too, but how do you allow that to be reviewed, because you want everything reviewable and then earlier in the game, Alshon grabs shields by the arm and throws him by him to come back and try and make a catch. Again, no call, and I'm glad for that, let them play, but by the rules that stuff "could" be called and when you slow it down everything can be called a penalty. But it didn't look like it to the ref at the time and he just let them play. I'm happy for that.

What about holding? Oh my god, you can find holding along the line every single play. Games would take 10 hours to finish. and how do you judge holding under the scrutiny of review compared to real time play? Everything is a penalty if you look hard enough. I hate the idea of everything being reviewable.

Most things work themselves out over the course of a season. Someone get's screwed once and awhile, and having reviews isn't going to change that because every single fucking week, someone is on here complaining about how they were screwed by the review. Quit adding shit to the game that is going to add clarity and better competition.

 

[JDM]

Yeah, replay is almost perfect. I would allow them to undo personal fouls with helmet to helmet contact called if there was literally no helmet to helmet contact and make all of those require at least one replay run through to call, but besides that everything is perfect as-is. The only reason I want that is because refs deliberately throw the flags on and big hit regardless of actual legality or not and there should be some responsibility there.

 

[Midnightangel]

Clearly we need to add a couple things to review in light of the refs performance the past few weeks.

The Steelers got jobbed in Green Bay when they blocked a FG, gained possession and then fumbled and swatted out of bounds. The ball was given to the Packers and they got a TD. They were told that's not reviewable. The NFL is currently looking at adding that this off season.

The clock. In the last game of the year for Dallas the clock operator started the clock off with 25 seconds after a play instead of 40 seconds. Dallas got called for a delay they didn't earn. Not reviewable. Obviously it should be. And that's something that should take about 5 seconds under the hood to confirm or not.

Also under the clock area....in the GB/Pitt game the ref put the ball in play and wound the clock but didn't let the Packers snap it. They only got one play off with 10 seconds to do instead of 2.

The refs aren't perfect but replay can be.

Especially at THIS time of year when one play decides a season let's get it right.

 

[Wazmankg]

I suppose technically everything is a judgement call, but not in real terms.

"Did the ball pass the plane of the goal line? Judgement call. Did the receiver get two feet down in bounds? Judgement call. Was he down before he fumbled? Judgement call."

If you show one of these to 50 refs you'll generally get 100% consensus if there's a good shot of it because they're cut & dried, like 12 men on the field which is reviewable. With PI, holding, etc. as others have posted you could call them, or more importantly justify calling them ... or not, on just about every play.

So what is the proposal here ? That we allow penalties called to be reviewed ? Or that we also allow penalties not called to be reviewed ?

 

[Midnightangel]

I suppose technically everything is a judgement call, but not in real terms.

"Did the ball pass the plane of the goal line? Judgement call. Did the receiver get two feet down in bounds? Judgement call. Was he down before he fumbled? Judgement call."

If you show one of these to 50 refs you'll generally get 100% consensus if there's a good shot of it because they're cut & dried, like 12 men on the field which is reviewable. With PI, holding, etc. as others have posted you could call them, or more importantly justify calling them ... or not, on just about every play.

So what is the proposal here ? That we allow penalties called to be reviewed ? Or that we also allow penalties not called to be reviewed ?

I can't speak for the OP but I feel some penalties should be reviewed - and some are. How many men were on the field? That's reviewable, for example. (call it the Bill Cowher rule).

I think PI should be reviewable since it so drastically changes field position. Ditto with hitting with the crown of the helmet. I saw one Sunday where the guy hit with the shoulder to the chest - the helmets were no where near colliding - but he got flagged just for that.

Oh, and while we're at it....how about flagging RB's for hitting with the crown of the helmet? I thought we were supposed to have a rule where RB's can't lower their heads inside the tackle box. We put that rule in for safety reasons. If we're going to say the helmet is not a weapon for the defense, it's also not a weapon for the offense.

 

[Wazmankg]

I can't speak for the OP but I feel some penalties should be reviewed - and some are. How many men were on the field? That's reviewable, for example. (call it the Bill Cowher rule).

I think PI should be reviewable since it so drastically changes field position. Ditto with hitting with the crown of the helmet. I saw one Sunday where the guy hit with the shoulder to the chest - the helmets were no where near colliding - but he got flagged just for that.

Oh, and while we're at it....how about flagging RB's for hitting with the crown of the helmet? I thought we were supposed to have a rule where RB's can't lower their heads inside the tackle box. We put that rule in for safety reasons. If we're going to say the helmet is not a weapon for the defense, it's also not a weapon for the offense.

This is where it gets tricky. Should just PI calls be reviewable or should presumed PI that wasn't called also be reviewable ? Because if it's the former I think the result would be that PI would only get called for the most egregious offenses and people would be bitching about all of the PI that isn't getting called. I agree that the helmet to helmet should be reviewable. I think JDM mentioned that one too.

 

[JDM]

PI is too subjective. Replays have to be irrefutable.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Judgement is a rather poor word to use to describe this in my personal opinion as it obfuscates the actual reality of the situation instead of actually describing it in this context. But to answer the OP, yes in technical terms, it is a judgement. This is true as it is an opinion expressed as fact is what it really is, and in theory, such an objective review is pointless as it would be disputable; and that would be wasting the fans time, no?

 

[CaptainStubing]

some calls are more 'judgement' calls than others. a guy's feet being in bounds or not is pretty black and white while PI or holding is very judgemental.

i guess the problem i have with the thought of reviewing even more things is that the flow of the game already gets stopped so often with so many reviews and challenges. i don't want more reviews and challenges. If anything, i'm ok with less of them.

 

[flaraider]

Yeah, replay is almost perfect. I would allow them to undo personal fouls with helmet to helmet contact called if there was literally no helmet to helmet contact and make all of those require at least one replay run through to call, but besides that everything is perfect as-is. The only reason I want that is because refs deliberately throw the flags on and big hit regardless of actual legality or not and there should be some responsibility there.

I agree with that, even though I feel games are already too long, refs are quick to throw helmet-to-helmet flags now that often would/should be overturned on review.

Some penalties are much more subjective than others, PI and holding obviously top the list, and now with more strict "safety" protocol unnecessary roughness has become much more judgement call, but ball spots, placement, inbounds/outbounds, become less subjective with review. There is a fine line the NFL is treading right now, pushing the limits of tolerance with penalties and reviews to the detriment of competition and fairness.

 

[JDM]

Have the replay guy up top review it. You can do it while it's being marched off without time added. If it's not clear there was no contact, let it stand.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Have the replay guy up top review it. You can do it while it's being marched off without time added. If it's not clear there was no contact, let it stand.

Wouldn't a judgement call in this context be inherently subjective, and therefore, inherently disputable on the ever shifting standards of other officials? Take forward progress for example, when does it EXACTLY stop definitively? Seems rather subjective and a review doesn't seem too helpful in this case per the rules.

 

[JDM]

I'm just talking phantom helmet to helmet hits. I have seen flags consistently thrown this year for "helmet to helmet" where there is literally no helmet to helmet contact. I'm tired of those impacting games.


If there's contact it becomes subjective and you let it go.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

I'm just talking phantom helmet to helmet hits. I have seen flags consistently thrown this year for "helmet to helmet" where there is literally no helmet to helmet contact. I'm tired of those impacting games.


If there's contact it becomes subjective and you let it go.

Helmet to Helmet perhaps, but I would have a big problem with forward progress, PI, et al being reviewable. I suppose my point is that if it were really a judgement call, it inherently can't/shouldn't be challenged.

Other things such as pre-snap penalties such as... 7 or more men on one side of the field seems to obviously not be a judgement call, and therefore, ought to be reviewable.

 

[JDM]

I don't want those things to be. I literally said replay is perfect if you keep it as-is but add the capability to review that one thing since refs are flag happy.