Is this Bochy's worst year as a Giants manager?

[MarcoPolo]

No he hasn't. Bochy's rep is in the judicious use of his pen. He's always tended to leave his starters in a few batters too long. Seems to always want to coax a 110+ pitches out of Zito, when his effectiveness drops off dramatically at 100+. It worked out once with Zito.

I'm sorry, that's just not true. A quick check finds :

Apr 9, 114 pitches, Giants win (7-0), Zito gets the win

Apr 14, 113 pitches, Giants win (4-3), Zito ND (left game tied, 1 hit and no runs his last 2 innings)

Jun 25, 109 pitches, Giants win (8-0), Zito gets the win


I stopped looking after the 3rd, I wouldn't be surprised to find there are more, but I'm too lazy

 

[dredinis21]

I've watched nearly every start these players have made, and that's a characterization of Bochy, and his effect on them, that I just can't get on board with. It's a nice thought, but I just don't see anything objective to back that up.



Remember when he kept bringing in Tyler Walker in high leverage situations? Took Bochy almost a season to admit that was a mistake.



I'd say the handling of the pen is his strength. But, in any case, you ought to hang out in gameday threads and hear us calling for the pen just before the starter loses effectiveness.



Crawford's OPS as a 7-hole hitter is .725, as an 8-hole hitter he's at .588. The Giants run expectancy drops from 4.259 to 4.142 when you move him from 7th to 8th in the order. That's about 1.5 wins over the course of a 162 game season. Caveat - lots of hand-waving involved in that calculation, but trust it gets the point across.

Lets go in order. I have also watched virtually every start MadBum, Cain, Lincecum, and Vogey (while in a Giants uni) have made and this is what I saw. Just because you can't get on board with that characterization doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't possible or probable. If you don't want to review how he handled Timmeh when he came into the league, or disregard how he handled MadBum...or even Vogey, so be it. But it doesn't mean it didn't happen or that his influence wasn't a part in the development of these young pitchers. The guy was a former catcher. At some point, you have to give him some credit for the pitching staff's development as he was the one to see them mature into what they currently are. Has he made mistakes? Of course. But I don't know if there is anyone in baseball currently who does a better job with his pitching staff then Bochy if you are looking at his entire season's body of work and how he handles his starters AND pen year in and year out. Because of this, even though he makes mistakes, I give him the benefit of the doubt with our pitching. Lineup OTOH is a totally different story.

Ahh, Tyler Walker. IIRC, those teams he was on were dangerously close to a shit show. That pen wasn't very good and got hit hard. Bochy was also trying to turn turds into gold nuggets and Walker was one of those guys. Once Sabean started to actually focus on his bullpen and got Bochy some arms, he has seemed to do pretty well. Idk whether the decision to continue to pitch Walker was based on not having the horses at the time or what, but given his success with the pens in both SD and SF, I would give him a pass in his first seasons at the SF manager when he was given shit to work with.

Lastly, your numbers regarding Crawford seem to also have this season's stats added to them, is that correct? Because Crawford is a better hitter this season then last, so including this season's stats to make Opening Day 20/20 hindsight claims seems a bit weak. If they are purely last season's stats, I apologize.

 

[gp956]

I'm sorry, that's just not true. A quick check finds :

Apr 9, 114 pitches, Giants win (7-0), Zito gets the win

Apr 14, 113 pitches, Giants win (4-3), Zito ND (left game tied, 1 hit and no runs his last 2 innings)

Jun 25, 109 pitches, Giants win (8-0), Zito gets the win


I stopped looking after the 3rd, I wouldn't be surprised to find there are more, but I'm too lazy

jesus......

 

[TheSaboteur]

16. Allowing rampant PED usage in his clubhouse?

 

[gp956]

Lets go in order. I have also watched virtually every start MadBum, Cain, Lincecum, and Vogey (while in a Giants uni) have made and this is what I saw. Just because you can't get on board with that characterization doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't possible or probable.

We can disagree on this. It's ok.

If you don't want to review how he handled Timmeh when he came into the league, or disregard how he handled MadBum...or even Vogey, so be it.

But now you're saying I'm disregarding something which I have regarded. That's not very polite.

But it doesn't mean it didn't happen or that his influence wasn't a part in the development of these young pitchers. The guy was a former catcher. At some point, you have to give him some credit for the pitching staff's development as he was the one to see them mature into what they currently are.

Well, you're saying "it" happened. The "it" being that their success is directly tied to Bochy letting them go deep into games and facing top hitters in high leverage situations. I'm just not buying the causal relationship there, even if I accept that you actually did the research necessary to quantify this. Nevertheless, none of that really matters. We're not adding up all the good things Bochy has done, conjectured or not.

Lastly, your numbers regarding Crawford seem to also have this season's stats added to them, is that correct? Because Crawford is a better hitter this season then last, so including this season's stats to make Opening Day 20/20 hindsight claims seems a bit weak. If they are purely last season's stats, I apologize.

The stats were for his career. But if we were just looking at 2011 the split was even more dramatic: 7th:.705, 8th:.465. But that doesn't matter either. If Brandon hit .210 he'd be back in AAA. I had him pegged at around .240 to .260 this year. Had Bochy put him in the 7th spot early in the year he might have beaten my prediction.

Also, just a note. I don't play with stats to make my arguments look better. Not my agenda here at all. I didn't base my desire to bat Brandon 7th on stats at all. It was based simply on my experiences in and around this game. I'm kind of surprised the stats backed me up, in fact.

 

[gp956]

16. Allowing rampant PED usage in his clubhouse?

Played dumb to roiders.