POLL If prime Jordan played in today's NBA - would he be the best?

[Rambunctious]

The new guys would be faster and better shooters, the old guys bigger and better defenders in the paint. That's why the rules matter.

That's a good point.

 

[lebron23james]

If LB23J is my alt show me where I slipped up revealing it was really me.

Thats easy you slipped up earlier with your in the kitchen comment...

#destroyed

 

[lebron23james]

Jordan was more successful at winning championships, but he wasn't better at the game of basketball. Plus he was much uglier as well, and had to quit because of a gambling problem. He is the Pete Rose of basketball

 

[Bart]

Yeah and your main points actually are the reason I wonder about your reasoning behind Jordan not being as successful in this era. Because as you said nothing happens in a vacuum. Jordan never had to play against super teams as there are in this era, but that also comes with the assumption he wouldn't have other great players around him either. He didn't have to go up against the Warriors, but who's to say he wouldn't have had two other superstars on his team as well. Or what conference/team he played for. Who would his coach be? What would be their offensive philosophy? There's all sorts of things that matter in the grand scheme of things. With this discussion being so broad, I'm just genuinely curious as to your position. Of course it is your opinion, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just why do certain guys like Bird/Magic, get a pass because they'd be able to adapt but Jordan wouldn't?

I never said Jordan wouldn’t be successful, I just said he wouldn’t be the best. And your last statement pretty much sums up my position. I don’t feel Jordan would adapt very well, preventing him from being considered the best player. It took certain circumstance for Jordan to finally win rings. The watering down of the league, the fall of Magic and Bird, Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, the emergence of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, a weak East, no rivals in the finals, having the only real superteam, etc.


As for the superteam, I don’t think a team of other superstars fits with Jordan, he’s too much of a ball hog. Jordan’s teams had superstar role players not superstars per se. Kerr (one of the great 3 point shooters of all time), Pippen (one of the great all around 2 way players), Kukoc ( great European player), Rodman (all time great defender and rebounder). If Jordan had superstar teammates instead of superstar role players, I doubt he utilizes them effectively to produce a championship team because of his selfish play. Kind of the way Westbrook wasn’t able to make it work with PG. If Jordan went the route of superstar role players then I think the other teams comprised of superstar teammates would still be better than Jordan’s team of superstar role players. And honestly with the trend of forming superteams with superstars, I would bet that Jordan’s team would go with that model to build around him.


Generally my opinion of Jordan is he had the perfect storm to succeed during his championship run, something that wouldn’t have been repeated during today’s NBA. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be fighting for the title of best player but it wouldn’t be a lock like it was in the 90’s

 

[Bart]

Thats easy you slipped up earlier with your in the kitchen comment...

#destroyed

LOL....Yeah, clearly that was the smoking gun...LOL.

 

[lebron23james]

I never said Jordan wouldn’t be successful, I just said he wouldn’t be the best. And your last statement pretty much sums up my position. I don’t feel Jordan would adapt very well, preventing him from being considered the best player. It took certain circumstance for Jordan to finally win rings. The watering down of the league, the fall of Magic and Bird, Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, the emergence of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, a weak East, no rivals in the finals, having the only real superteam, etc.


As for the superteam, I don’t think a team of other superstars fits with Jordan, he’s too much of a ball hog. Jordan’s teams had superstar role players not superstars per se. Kerr (one of the great 3 point shooters of all time), Pippen (one of the great all around 2 way players), Kukoc ( great European player), Rodman (all time great defender and rebounder). If Jordan had superstar teammates instead of superstar role players, I doubt he utilizes them effectively to produce a championship team because of his selfish play. Kind of the way Westbrook wasn’t able to make it work with PG. If Jordan went the route of superstar role players then I think the other teams comprised of superstar teammates would still be better than Jordan’s team of superstar role players. And honestly with the trend of forming superteams with superstars, I would bet that Jordan’s team would go with that model to build around him.


Generally my opinion of Jordan is he had the perfect storm to succeed during his championship run, something that wouldn’t have been repeated during today’s NBA. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be fighting for the title of best player but it wouldn’t be a lock like it was in the 90’s

Well said....Think of it this way

Curry is not as good as Durant but has more championships

Curry is not as good as AD, who has no championships

Jordan is not as good as Lebron, even though he has more championships

 

[msgkings322]

I never said Jordan wouldn’t be successful, I just said he wouldn’t be the best. And your last statement pretty much sums up my position. I don’t feel Jordan would adapt very well, preventing him from being considered the best player. It took certain circumstance for Jordan to finally win rings. The watering down of the league, the fall of Magic and Bird, Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, the emergence of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, a weak East, no rivals in the finals, having the only real superteam, etc.


As for the superteam, I don’t think a team of other superstars fits with Jordan, he’s too much of a ball hog. Jordan’s teams had superstar role players not superstars per se. Kerr (one of the great 3 point shooters of all time), Pippen (one of the great all around 2 way players), Kukoc ( great European player), Rodman (all time great defender and rebounder). If Jordan had superstar teammates instead of superstar role players, I doubt he utilizes them effectively to produce a championship team because of his selfish play. Kind of the way Westbrook wasn’t able to make it work with PG. If Jordan went the route of superstar role players then I think the other teams comprised of superstar teammates would still be better than Jordan’s team of superstar role players. And honestly with the trend of forming superteams with superstars, I would bet that Jordan’s team would go with that model to build around him.


Generally my opinion of Jordan is he had the perfect storm to succeed during his championship run, something that wouldn’t have been repeated during today’s NBA. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be fighting for the title of best player but it wouldn’t be a lock like it was in the 90’s

I don't know that I agree fully but you make an excellent case. People have religious passion for Jordan, he's a bit overrated.

 

[logic]

I just did two quick searches for images on google.
Jordan dunks on
LeBron dunks on

The Jordan search comes back with a who's who of big men from his era.
The LeBron search comes back with mostly guards and guys dunking on LeBron.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

MJ flopped as did many others in that time.

And none of this takes away the main point.....scoring down mostly because they took less shots and less 3s.

Never in the history of the NBA have players flopped like they do now. NEVER.

It absolutely happened at times in the past. Today’s NBA though, it happens in every game. Hell, Harden and James do it multiple times a game. Lebron does it so much, they have highlight videos of only his flopping.

And what led to more scoring is the NBA rules changes, it is specifically why they made the rule changes. Before the physical defense used in the mid 80’s and 90’s, teams used to put up the same points they do now without the 3 point shot being so prevalent.

In the mid 80’s and 90’s — teams decided, if you were going to drive the lane, they were going to take your head off. It’d make you think twice the next time you drove the lane. Hand checks were legal, bodying in the post was legal, the refs didn’t call the ticky tack fouls if you were clutching or grabbing. If you put a team like the Pistons of the late 80’s, early 90’s in the NBA today, they wouldn’t have enough players to field a team at the end of games most nights. And if they had to play by today’s rules, they would get demolished. It wasn’t about who was the most skilled team, it was about who was the toughest team.

 

[dtgold88]

Never in the history of the NBA have players flopped like they do now. NEVER.

It absolutely happened at times in the past. Today’s NBA though, it happens in every game. Hell, Harden and James do it multiple times a game. Lebron does it so much, they have highlight videos of only his flopping.

And what led to more scoring is the NBA rules changes, it is specifically why they made the rule changes. Before the physical defense used in the mid 80’s and 90’s, teams used to put up the same points they do now without the 3 point shot being so prevalent.

In the mid 80’s and 90’s — teams decided, if you were going to drive the lane, they were going to take your head off. It’d make you think twice the next time you drove the lane. Hand checks were legal, bodying in the post was legal, the refs didn’t call the ticky tack fouls if you were clutching or grabbing. If you put a team like the Pistons of the late 80’s, early 90’s in the NBA today, they wouldn’t have enough players to field a team at the end of games most nights. And if they had to play by today’s rules, they would get demolished. It wasn’t about who was the most skilled team, it was about who was the toughest team.

agree flopping more prevalent now, and Lebron plays his part.....but he isn't on the level of the guys who get looked at on the 3 point line and go down 3-4 times per game.

And it's just absurd to dismiss the fact fewer shots were taken back then as a reason for less scoring (or call it more now leading to more scoring)....along with less 3s taken.

 

[msgkings322]

Never in the history of the NBA have players flopped like they do now. NEVER.

It absolutely happened at times in the past. Today’s NBA though, it happens in every game. Hell, Harden and James do it multiple times a game. Lebron does it so much, they have highlight videos of only his flopping.

And what led to more scoring is the NBA rules changes, it is specifically why they made the rule changes. Before the physical defense used in the mid 80’s and 90’s, teams used to put up the same points they do now without the 3 point shot being so prevalent.

In the mid 80’s and 90’s — teams decided, if you were going to drive the lane, they were going to take your head off. It’d make you think twice the next time you drove the lane. Hand checks were legal, bodying in the post was legal, the refs didn’t call the ticky tack fouls if you were clutching or grabbing. If you put a team like the Pistons of the late 80’s, early 90’s in the NBA today, they wouldn’t have enough players to field a team at the end of games most nights. And if they had to play by today’s rules, they would get demolished. It wasn’t about who was the most skilled team, it was about who was the toughest team.

And that's why today is a more entertaining sport. If I want to watch football I do that. In basketball I want to see fast breaks, dunks, crossovers, long 3s, and great passing

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

agree flopping more prevalent now, and Lebron plays his part.....but he isn't on the level of the guys who get looked at on the 3 point line and go down 3-4 times per game.

And it's just absurd to dismiss the fact fewer shots were taken back then as a reason for less scoring (or call it more now leading to more scoring)....along with less 3s taken.

In 1984 they averaged the same amount of points per game as they do today, while only taking an average of 2.4 three point attempts per game.

This is around the time teams started introducing more physical play and it continued until you had Detroit in 89 and 90 and it continued until you had Detroit in 2004.

If you put any of those Detroit teams in the NBA now — they’d get dominated because physical defense is what made them great. They beat teams up and wore them down. The ref mantra was ‘let them play’.

Today’s game is soft. If you commit a hard foul, you get ejected. If you play any type of defense, you get a fouled called on you. They even put a cylinder under the rim, and if you touch it with your foot — it is an automatic blocking call.

I love watching Steph Curry play, but the way the game is called is what has led to higher scoring games. All shooting 3’s over 2’s has done is let you shoot worse, but score the same amount of points.
If you take 50 3 pointers and make 40% — that’s 60 points.
If the other team takes 50 2 pointers, they’d have to shoot 60% to match the same 60 points.

 

[Black Adam]

And that's why today is a more entertaining sport. If I want to watch football I do that. In basketball I want to see fast breaks, dunks, crossovers, long 3s, and great passing

meh, i miss the days when players took pride in defense personally...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

meh, i miss the days when players took pride in defense personally...

As do I. The game is fun to watch, but now all kids want to do growing up is jack up 3 pointers and they neglect the other skills necessary to be a good player.
It is painful to watch my son and my nephews games. These kids are 6, 7, 8 and they are airballing 3 pointers a couple dozen times a game

 

[lebron23james]

meh, i miss the days when players took pride in defense personally...

That was the worst. Remember when they would back down the guy with their back to the basket for like ever, and the guy would check the others guy back with his forearm

And the slow stroll across halfcourt, before the 8 sec rule

It was sooooo boring, unnatural and just didn't flow...thankfully the NBA learned from it's pathetic mistakes

 

[lebron23james]

Never in the history of the NBA have players flopped like they do now. NEVER.

It absolutely happened at times in the past. Today’s NBA though, it happens in every game. Hell, Harden and James do it multiple times a game. Lebron does it so much, they have highlight videos of only his flopping.

And what led to more scoring is the NBA rules changes, it is specifically why they made the rule changes. Before the physical defense used in the mid 80’s and 90’s, teams used to put up the same points they do now without the 3 point shot being so prevalent.

In the mid 80’s and 90’s — teams decided, if you were going to drive the lane, they were going to take your head off. It’d make you think twice the next time you drove the lane. Hand checks were legal, bodying in the post was legal, the refs didn’t call the ticky tack fouls if you were clutching or grabbing. If you put a team like the Pistons of the late 80’s, early 90’s in the NBA today, they wouldn’t have enough players to field a team at the end of games most nights. And if they had to play by today’s rules, they would get demolished. It wasn’t about who was the most skilled team, it was about who was the toughest team.

That is like arguing they can't hit the NFL quarterbacks anymore like the use to. Fans want to see the stars, not have them injured and watching the backup. It really ruined the game. It was more a thug game, vs a pure talent game.

The players are stronger now anyways...They didn't have the same workouts/technology they have now

 

[dtgold88]

Going down the list, I have 8 new guys better, 3 old guys better, and one pair equal. It's hard to make perfect head to head comparisons because the old team is bigger and the new team is more about shooting (hence the rules question). If you move some of these one to one comparisons around you can make it more even but here's my wild ass guess:

Jordan >> Harden
1992 Magic < LeBron
Malone < Durant
Stockton < Curry
Ewing < Davis
Mullin < Thompson
Pippen = Kawhi
Robinson > Lillard
Drexler < Westbrook
Barkley > Butler
1992 Bird <<< Paul George
Laettner < Zion

You did the work, so not moving around and will go as is.......

I think one could make a case for Ewing = Davis, though don't recall his age at the time.
I'll take Kawhi over Pippen.
Probably agree with Robinson over Lillard, but obviously a tough comparison (though not sure how you'd change it)

agree with the rest.

 

[dtgold88]

In 1984 they averaged the same amount of points per game as they do today, while only taking an average of 2.4 three point attempts per game.

This is around the time teams started introducing more physical play and it continued until you had Detroit in 89 and 90 and it continued until you had Detroit in 2004.

If you put any of those Detroit teams in the NBA now — they’d get dominated because physical defense is what made them great. They beat teams up and wore them down. The ref mantra was ‘let them play’.

Today’s game is soft. If you commit a hard foul, you get ejected. If you play any type of defense, you get a fouled called on you. They even put a cylinder under the rim, and if you touch it with your foot — it is an automatic blocking call.

I love watching Steph Curry play, but the way the game is called is what has led to higher scoring games. All shooting 3’s over 2’s has done is let you shoot worse, but score the same amount of points.
If you take 50 3 pointers and make 40% — that’s 60 points.
If the other team takes 50 2 pointers, they’d have to shoot 60% to match the same 60 points.

Yes, I get it. Throughout much of the 80s they scored a lot of points. Trouble is we were talking about the early 90s and into the 90s when teams began slowing the game down.

Today's game is basketball. any thug can stand in the lane and commit a hard foul. Not much skill to that.

 

[dtgold88]

As do I. The game is fun to watch, but now all kids want to do growing up is jack up 3 pointers and they neglect the other skills necessary to be a good player.
It is painful to watch my son and my nephews games. These kids are 6, 7, 8 and they are airballing 3 pointers a couple dozen times a game

well past that age range for my kids, but the vast majority could airball 8 footers as well.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

That is like arguing they can't hit the NFL quarterbacks anymore like the use to. Fans want to see the stars, not have them injured and watching the backup. It really ruined the game. It was more a thug game, vs a pure talent game.

The players are stronger now anyways...They didn't have the same workouts/technology they have now

No doubt. They have pussified every major sport. That is why you see more offense.
Then you have coddled superstars in the NBA who cry to be traded and they join up with others to chase a ring.
I don’t even waste my time on the NBA now. I don’t watch the NBA anymore until the playoffs. It is a waste of time. My favorite is the players ‘resting’ on back to back games. Fans pay top dollar to see Lebron come to town and he sits out to ‘rest’

The league is soft right now.