How does this affect UK's APR?

[TheRedPlectrum]

Honest question.

How do schools with a lot of one-and-done guys maintain the required graduation rate?

I know seven players leaving is uncommon, but that's over half of the team's scholarship players. Is there some loophole I'm missing, or will this put Kentucky in a bind a few years down the road?

 

[mick7-1961]

I wantto know who in the world told the Harrison Twins they are ready for the NBA ?

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Honest question.

How do schools with a lot of one-and-done guys maintain the required graduation rate?

I know seven players leaving is uncommon, but that's over half of the team's scholarship players. Is there some loophole I'm missing, or will this put Kentucky in a bind a few years down the road?

If a player goes pro and is in good academic standing their last semester (spring semester) then those players get full credit towards the APR.

Academic Progress Rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Teams that fail to achieve an APR score of 925 - equivalent to a 50% graduation rate - may be penalized. A perfect score is 1000. The scores are calculated as follows:

Each student-athlete receiving athletically related financial aid earns one retention point for staying in school and one eligibility point for being academically eligible. A team’s total points are divided by the points possible and then multiplied by one thousand to equal the team’s Academic Progress Rate score.

Example: A Division I Football Bowl Subdivision team awards the full complement of 85 grants-in-aid. If 80 student-athletes remain in school and academically eligible, three remain in school but are academically ineligible and two drop out academically ineligible, the team earns 163 of 170 possible points for that term. Divide 163 by 170 and multiply by 1,000 to determine that the team’s Academic Progress Rate for that term is 959.

 

[UKnation87]

To Trolly's point, this is why UK has scored in high 900's in APR and other program were kept out the dance.

 

[tducey]

The rule needs tweaking IMO. All student athletes should be required to stay in school 2 yrs. and have a 70 percent average before they can go pro.

 

[UKnation87]

The rule needs tweaking IMO. All student athletes should be required to stay in school 2 yrs. and have a 70 percent average before they can go pro.

I don't you could do that unless you give them the ability to go straight to the NBA out of high school. Much like the baseball rule where a kid can make the decision to sign with a team (assuming he's drafted) right out of high school, or wait 3 years.

I don't think 3 years is necessary for basketball but if this were to be put into place I believe you should allow any kid considering the NBA the ability to meet with, and work out for teams on the team's dime without any push back the NCAA.

If the prospect goes in, works out, and gets feed back that he will need some time to develop then it's an easy decision at that point. If the prospect is a legit to 20 pick, then let them go ahead grab an agent and work towards their dream of playing at the highest level.

My issue with whole thing is this - if you're truly good enough then you should have the ability to play and make money at the age of 18. Why you might ask? Because if an 18 year old kid can serve and die for this great country then he/she (WNBA) should have the opportunity to make money from their talent.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

The rule needs tweaking IMO. All student athletes should be required to stay in school 2 yrs. and have a 70 percent average before they can go pro.

70 percent average what?

If you're talking about grades, that isn't an NCAA issue, at least not with regards to athletes going pro. As long as the NBA is willing to take them with whatever scores they have (and I've never even heard a rumor that an NBA team would pass on a college player because of bad grades) the athletes are going to leave with whatever scores they have. Period.

This is not unlike the NCAA "rule" that says they need to declare for the draft by April 10th (or whatever the exact date is) as long as the NBA is willing to take them later, the athletes will still end up flipping the NCAA the bird and leaving whenever they damn well want.

There isn't a single thing the NCAA can do by itself to keep kids in school longer other than making the punishment for having kids leave early so stiff, that nobody even recruits potential early draft entries because they are simply too toxic for the program. (and based on all of the exemptions that the NCAA has already made to allow those kids to play without hurting the schools they play for (see above APR rules) it's pretty clear they have no intention of doing that)

The perceived problem (and I don't necessarily think it is an actual problem as much as a perceived one) can only truly be fixed with the cooperation of the NBA. But the NCAA has very little power to punish athletes, while they're actually enrolled in school, and zero power to do so after they've left.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Actually, the NCAA could make all scholarships a 2, 3, or 4 year contract, with a non-compete clause that would make them ineligible to declare for the NBA for the length of that agreement. So, even if they leave (like a job), then they still can't declare for the NBA.

I'm not saying that should, or even would, happen, but the NCAA is not completely powerless.

In all honesty, if I am the NBA and the NCAA, I would work an agreement to make it a 2 or 3 year window from H.S. The list of impact players to successfully make the jump is very small, and with how poor the NBA game is to begin with, it would benefit both entities to have players stay, compete, and grow at the NCAA level for 2-3 years.

NCAA wins because it keeps higher profile names around longer. NBA wins because the players will have more experience, and in theory, should be better players.

Yeah, the players do lose out, but I'm just looking at this from the NBA/NCAA side of the ball with this.

Personally, I think they need to look at Baseball and how they go about it, and model something after that.

 

[UKnation87]

The biggest reason the NBA put this rule into place was because someone had to determine that the league was wasting millions and millions of dollars on kids who would flame out after the first contract (if they stayed in the league that long).

So now, instead of the NBA paying some kids a bunch of money only to watch them never reach potential and end up bagging groceries at the quick sak, they decided one year of actual competition in college is a better evaluation period when compared to AAU basketball.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Actually, the NCAA could make all scholarships a 2, 3, or 4 year contract, with a non-compete clause that would make them ineligible to declare for the NBA for the length of that agreement. So, even if they leave (like a job), then they still can't declare for the NBA.

The NCAA has ZERO power to do that. It is completely illegal and utterly unenforceable.

Realistically the NCAA can't even enforce multi-semester (or year) scholarships without being leaving giant loopholes, or being complete cockbags about it. If a student fails academically, you can't make them stay. So if they tried that, then they've just encouraged guys who want to leave early to flunk out of school. Sure you can make them liable for the cost of the scholarship, but to the guys leaving early, the money is trivial, and if you have a kid that legitimately can't hack it in college for 4 years (not everyone can) you're crippling them financially all to uphold some antiquated idea of what college athletics should be. And if that's your "solution" to the "problem" Fuck you.

I'm not saying that should, or even would, happen, but the NCAA is not completely powerless.

Legally, they are have pretty much zero power over kids leaving early. You simply can't contractually obligate someone to finish school, and if they aren't contractually obligated (which sorta fucks up that whole idea of amateurism too) then they have NO legal recourse. NONE.

Like I said before. This is like the bullshit "draft deadline" that the NCAA sets. They can make up all the fucking rules in the world, but if they are unenforceable, then they don't mean shit.

 

[Sgt Brutus]

I wantto know who in the world told the Harrison Twins they are ready for the NBA ?

They weren't good enough to start at Kentucky next year

 

[Cincyfan78]

The NCAA has ZERO power to do that. It is completely illegal and utterly unenforceable.

Realistically the NCAA can't even enforce multi-semester (or year) scholarships without being leaving giant loopholes, or being complete cockbags about it. If a student fails academically, you can't make them stay. So if they tried that, then they've just encouraged guys who want to leave early to flunk out of school. Sure you can make them liable for the cost of the scholarship, but to the guys leaving early, the money is trivial, and if you have a kid that legitimately can't hack it in college for 4 years (not everyone can) you're crippling them financially all to uphold some antiquated idea of what college athletics should be. And if that's your "solution" to the "problem" Fuck you.



Legally, they are have pretty much zero power over kids leaving early. You simply can't contractually obligate someone to finish school, and if they aren't contractually obligated (which sorta fucks up that whole idea of amateurism too) then they have NO legal recourse. NONE.

Like I said before. This is like the bullshit "draft deadline" that the NCAA sets. They can make up all the fucking rules in the world, but if they are unenforceable, then they don't mean shit.

Disagree. Kids sign for student aid, and loans for schools. Those are binding. In the same vein you can add a non-compete clause to any athletic scholarship. They already have a smaller/similar version of this with transfers. Schools can limit where you can transfer if they want. They can also not release you from the scholarship, so that you can't compete at the NCAA level. So, yes, they are, and can be, completely binding.

They may not make you stay in school, but they can keep you from competing. My point is that the NCAA could add a very similar clause to their scholarships that, basically, make them a 2 or 3 year agreement (some schools have already moved away from the 1 year renewal scholarships to a full fledged 4 year agreement) and in that agreement would be a non-compete clause making it so that they can't sign with an NBA team, or subsidiary, for the length of the original agreement with the school.

I don't think this will happen, nor do I think this should happen (at least in this way) but it can absoultely happen.

 

[gordontrue]

The NCAA has ZERO power to do that. It is completely illegal and utterly unenforceable.

Realistically the NCAA can't even enforce multi-semester (or year) scholarships without being leaving giant loopholes, or being complete cockbags about it. If a student fails academically, you can't make them stay. So if they tried that, then they've just encouraged guys who want to leave early to flunk out of school. Sure you can make them liable for the cost of the scholarship, but to the guys leaving early, the money is trivial, and if you have a kid that legitimately can't hack it in college for 4 years (not everyone can) you're crippling them financially all to uphold some antiquated idea of what college athletics should be. And if that's your "solution" to the "problem" Fuck you.



Legally, they are have pretty much zero power over kids leaving early. You simply can't contractually obligate someone to finish school, and if they aren't contractually obligated (which sorta fucks up that whole idea of amateurism too) then they have NO legal recourse. NONE.

Like I said before. This is like the bullshit "draft deadline" that the NCAA sets. They can make up all the fucking rules in the world, but if they are unenforceable, then they don't mean shit.

Good points, and well said. Totally agree.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Disagree. Kids sign for student aid, and loans for schools. Those are binding. In the same vein you can add a non-compete clause to any athletic scholarship. They already have a smaller/similar version of this with transfers. Schools can limit where you can transfer if they want. They can also not release you from the scholarship, so that you can't compete at the NCAA level. So, yes, they are, and can be, completely binding.

Multi-year scholarships are binding to the school not the athlete. YOU CANNOT FORCE SOMEONE TO GO TO SCHOOL. The only way you can legally make them contractually obligated to do so is by forcing them to repay their scholarship for the part they did attend if they leave early, but as stated above, that DESTROYS the idea of amateurism. Utterly, and completely. Not to mention it has zero punitive effect on players leaving to get drafted as the money they have to pay back is tiny compared to what they'll be making. All it would do is double-fuck guys that leave early who don't sign huge contracts (most of whom were already fucked by bad decisions or circumstances in the first place)

So doing that:
A) Completely screws the idea of amateurism, doggy style (without the courtesy reach around)
B) Serves as absolutely zero incentive to prevent the super talented guys from leaving early
C) Completely devastates the guys that aren't super talented that don't sign huge contracts.

So, No. That won't work at all. Period. End of story.

They may not make you stay in school, but they can keep you from competing. My point is that the NCAA could add a very similar clause to their scholarships that, basically, make them a 2 or 3 year agreement (some schools have already moved away from the 1 year renewal scholarships to a full fledged 4 year agreement) and in that agreement would be a non-compete clause making it so that they can't sign with an NBA team, or subsidiary, for the length of the original agreement with the school.

The NCAA can't prevent ANYONE from transferring to a different school. What they can do is prevent someone from playing on scholarship after they transfer. But any athlete can transfer anywhere they want, any time they want. The NCAA only has jurisdiction on where the players can compete because THEY ARE PLAYING FOR FREE. It isn't considered "a job" so it isn't remotely the same thing as limiting where they can go work. The second the NCAA tries to pull some non-compete bullshit (which would never fly legally, as even the ones that have some merit in the real world rarely hold up in court) they once again completely destroy the notion of amateurism that they are so desperately clinging to.

And once again, the NCAA can't prevent the NBA from hiring anyone. So if the NBA hired a guy that the NCAA had wrapped up in some bullshit non-compete agreement, they have no grounds to sue the NBA since they don't have any sort of agreement with the NBA, which leaves them suing their former athletes. What are they going to sue for? Cost of the scholarship? I feel like I've already covered that. Damages? Well if they do that, we're not just talking about screwing amateurism, we're talking about throwing a ball-gag on it, tying its hands behind its back and then going at it in the ol' pile-driver position.

So once again:
A) It would go against everything they allege to stand for
B) Wouldn't hold up in any court in the country
C) Wouldn't serve as a deterrent in the slightest.

Neither of your suggestions are actually legal in this country. Even if they were, they wouldn't be effective for obvious reasons. Even if they were effective, the downsides would far outweigh any benefit, and even if that weren't the case, doing so would go against everything the NCAA alleges to stand for and would do irreparable damage to their reputation.

So like I said before. The NCAA is powerless to stop players from leaving early without the cooperation of the league(s) that players are leaving for. The only recourse the NCAA has to stop guys from leaving early is to make the risk of recruiting them so high, that no coaches will touch them. But they won't do that because as much as they try to get on their sanctimonious high horse about the values of a college educ... blah blah blah... they'd still rather have those guys for a year than not at all.

tl;dr The NCAA can't do jack shit about guys leaving early without the NBA helping.