Having signed Samardzija, what else should we do?

[calsnowskier]

Basically, you build your foundation through the system (even the '90s Yankees did this) and then you fill holes through FA. Trades are a different beast entirely and can be used to either build your foundation OR fill holes.

In '09, we were in foundation-building. In '16, we are in hole-filling.

 

[LHG]

Basically, you build your foundation through the system (even the '90s Yankees did this) and then you fill holes through FA. Trades are a different beast entirely and can be used to either build your foundation OR fill holes.

In '09, we were in foundation-building. In '16, we are in hole-filling.

But the 90s Yankees stopped winning championships when they shifted to hole filling. As you mentioned, they built their foundation through the farm. It was in bringing up young guys, who could more easily adapt to the clubhouse culture and play as a unit, that made them great teams. When they let the farm system go, because of their focus on high priced free agents, that they struggled to get beyond the first round of the playoffs. And, from my perspective, hole filling with big names means the farm starts to go barren. Free agent players have been around long enough to be more resistant to integrating well into the clubhouse and bring a certain amount of a mercenary mindset. Whether consciously or unconsciously, it becomes more about the money and they either press to justify the money they receive or they become more self focused on individual performance. Now maybe the culture the Giants' clubhouse has (articulated by Duffy and Tomlinson) can softened those tendencies. For me, it is partially about the money, but more long term, how these big deals weigh down teams towards the end of them. How often do 5 years or longer work out with pitchers or 7 years or longer work out for position players signing huge contracts? But its more about continuing to work with what got you there so that it doesn't dry up and leave you shipwrecked. Just because sexy names are available does that mean you get to the big dance with them.
Of course, none of us can make these decisions. This is all the front office to evaluate and decide how best to build the roster. When April comes, we will be rooting for whoever is wearing a Giants' uniform. I'll try to tone down my rhetoric from this point forward as I would guess, otherwise, we will just go in circles on our thoughts about how to build the team.

 

[Mays-Fan]

But the 90s Yankees stopped winning championships when they shifted to hole filling.

No, they stopped winning when NY selected Hillary Clinton as their senator.

 

[msgkings322]

No, they stopped winning when NY selected Hillary Clinton as their senator.

In the same manner Obama has been great for the Giants.

 

[calsnowskier]

But the 90s Yankees stopped winning championships when they shifted to hole filling. As you mentioned, they built their foundation through the farm. It was in bringing up young guys, who could more easily adapt to the clubhouse culture and play as a unit, that made them great teams. When they let the farm system go, because of their focus on high priced free agents, that they struggled to get beyond the first round of the playoffs. And, from my perspective, hole filling with big names means the farm starts to go barren. Free agent players have been around long enough to be more resistant to integrating well into the clubhouse and bring a certain amount of a mercenary mindset. Whether consciously or unconsciously, it becomes more about the money and they either press to justify the money they receive or they become more self focused on individual performance. Now maybe the culture the Giants' clubhouse has (articulated by Duffy and Tomlinson) can softened those tendencies. For me, it is partially about the money, but more long term, how these big deals weigh down teams towards the end of them. How often do 5 years or longer work out with pitchers or 7 years or longer work out for position players signing huge contracts? But its more about continuing to work with what got you there so that it doesn't dry up and leave you shipwrecked. Just because sexy names are available does that mean you get to the big dance with them.
Of course, none of us can make these decisions. This is all the front office to evaluate and decide how best to build the roster. When April comes, we will be rooting for whoever is wearing a Giants' uniform. I'll try to tone down my rhetoric from this point forward as I would guess, otherwise, we will just go in circles on our thoughts about how to build the team.

No team can consistently product guys like Timmeh, Buster and Bum. Having a group of guys like that all come up basically at the same time is why the Giants won (and won and won). To continue to have blinders on to different strategies just because that plan worked before is to destine yourself to frustration.

The Giants did phase 1 perfectly (build through the system, get "lucky" with a number of hits all at once).

The Giants did phase 2 perfectly (lock up the nucleus, add small pieces through trade and FA to strengthen the core).

The Giants are now in phase 3 (extend 'teh window" through more aggressive external adds).

Just because they are (theoretically) focused on the external right now, does not mean they are disregarding the internal. They have done amazingly well in the draft, despite not picking in the top of the draft since '09 with Wheeler. They have also quietly signed quite a few international amateurs that may or may not pan out (Cabrera, Edie, Fox, etc). But right now, they do not have A+ prospects ready to step in. They have players ready to compete, but the Giants NEVER go into a season expecting to hand a job to a kid (Bum, Posey, Timmeh all were mid-season call ups - Heston was only on the opening day 25 due to injury).

 

[SFGRTB]

Sounds like Zobrist want's to play second base most often, so the Giants have been ruled out.

 

[LHG]

No team can consistently product guys like Timmeh, Buster and Bum. Having a group of guys like that all come up basically at the same time is why the Giants won (and won and won). To continue to have blinders on to different strategies just because that plan worked before is to destine yourself to frustration.

The Giants did phase 1 perfectly (build through the system, get "lucky" with a number of hits all at once).

The Giants did phase 2 perfectly (lock up the nucleus, add small pieces through trade and FA to strengthen the core).

The Giants are now in phase 3 (extend 'teh window" through more aggressive external adds).

Just because they are (theoretically) focused on the external right now, does not mean they are disregarding the internal. They have done amazingly well in the draft, despite not picking in the top of the draft since '09 with Wheeler. They have also quietly signed quite a few international amateurs that may or may not pan out (Cabrera, Edie, Fox, etc). But right now, they do not have A+ prospects ready to step in. They have players ready to compete, but the Giants NEVER go into a season expecting to hand a job to a kid (Bum, Posey, Timmeh all were mid-season call ups - Heston was only on the opening day 25 due to injury).

Thanks for continuing the discussion cal. I do have a question to ask - can you name two teams who have done phase 1 and phase 2 well and then succeeded in phase 3 (i.e. won a World Series in this stage or phase)?

 

[calsnowskier]

Thanks for continuing the discussion cal. I do have a question to ask - can you name two teams who have done phase 1 and phase 2 well and then succeeded in phase 3 (i.e. won a World Series in this stage or phase)?

Continuing to win championships IS hard. Phase 3 is the hardest of the bunch, primarily because the initial core (those from phase 1) begin to age out. We, for example, have already moved on from Timmeh. To continue the winning is absolutely a tight-rope act, and is almost always unsuccessful.

To answer your question, I think only the '90s Yankees have been successful in phase 3. I will ask you a question now. Can you name any teams in the FA era that have been successful in phase 3 that focused instead on pure internal?

The answer is no one, and that is because the Yankees are the only team to have had any success in phase 3.

The Reds and A's of the '70s continued their success, but that was really in the infancy of FA. The As of the '80s fell on their face. The Red Sox of the '00s have had similar success to the Giants, but they have been very aggressive in the FA market, and their teams have all been basically whole new rosters. The Cards of the '00s are the closest to "your" strategy, but they too have been somewhat aggressive in the FA market.

I agree that focusing on the system is the MUCH stronger LONG TERM strategy. But we are talking about "teh window" right now. Taking advantage of "teh window" does not allow the luxury of waiting for another Bum or Posey or Timmeh to come along.

 

[msgkings322]

Continuing to win championships IS hard. Phase 3 is the hardest of the bunch, primarily because the initial core (those from phase 1) begin to age out. We, for example, have already moved on from Timmeh. To continue the winning is absolutely a tight-rope act, and is almost always unsuccessful.

To answer your question, I think only the '90s Yankees have been successful in phase 3. I will ask you a question now. Can you name any teams in the FA era that have been successful in phase 3 that focused instead on pure internal?

The answer is no one, and that is because the Yankees are the only team to have had any success in phase 3.

The Reds and A's of the '70s continued their success, but that was really in the infancy of FA. The As of the '80s fell on their face. The Red Sox of the '00s have had similar success to the Giants, but they have been very aggressive in the FA market, and their teams have all been basically whole new rosters. The Cards of the '00s are the closest to "your" strategy, but they too have been somewhat aggressive in the FA market.

I agree that focusing on the system is the MUCH stronger LONG TERM strategy. But we are talking about "teh window" right now. Taking advantage of "teh window" does not allow the luxury of waiting for another Bum or Posey or Timmeh to come along.

Plus, using the window now with free agency doesn't mean we can't maybe reload over the next few years internally, we can do both, it's money spent not prospects traded.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Royals, Cubs, Giants interested in Gerardo Parra

Gerardo Parra, anyone?

I know his name has been mentioned before. Decent bat, former two-time GG winner, but I'm concerned about the dropoff in his defensive numbers:

Gerardo Parra Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

If his defensive dropoff was for a "curable" reason, there looks to be some decent value. He supposedly has 3-year offers in hand, but is looking for a four-year deal.

His last arb year he made $6.2mm. Worth 4/36 or 4/40 if his defense comes back? I have no idea if that would get it done.

 

[tzill]

No team can consistently product guys like Timmeh, Buster and Bum. Having a group of guys like that all come up basically at the same time is why the Giants won (and won and won). To continue to have blinders on to different strategies just because that plan worked before is to destine yourself to frustration.

The Giants did phase 1 perfectly (build through the system, get "lucky" with a number of hits all at once).

The Giants did phase 2 perfectly (lock up the nucleus, add small pieces through trade and FA to strengthen the core).

The Giants are now in phase 3 (extend 'teh window" through more aggressive external adds).

Just because they are (theoretically) focused on the external right now, does not mean they are disregarding the internal. They have done amazingly well in the draft, despite not picking in the top of the draft since '09 with Wheeler. They have also quietly signed quite a few international amateurs that may or may not pan out (Cabrera, Edie, Fox, etc). But right now, they do not have A+ prospects ready to step in. They have players ready to compete, but the Giants NEVER go into a season expecting to hand a job to a kid (Bum, Posey, Timmeh all were mid-season call ups - Heston was only on the opening day 25 due to injury).

 

[calsnowskier]

Good exception.

Who in the Giants system is Belt? Belt's numbers in '10 were arguably BETTER than Posey's minor league numbers.

 

[SFGRTB]

Royals, Cubs, Giants interested in Gerardo Parra

Gerardo Parra, anyone?

I know his name has been mentioned before. Decent bat, former two-time GG winner, but I'm concerned about the dropoff in his defensive numbers:

Gerardo Parra Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

If his defensive dropoff was for a "curable" reason, there looks to be some decent value. He supposedly has 3-year offers in hand, but is looking for a four-year deal.

His last arb year he made $6.2mm. Worth 4/36 or 4/40 if his defense comes back? I have no idea if that would get it done.

Eh, pass. He's not enough of an impact hitter for me to pay Pagan money, 0.7 WAR over last 2 seasons. I'd rather see what we could get out of Mac/Parker, which I think could far exceed that production for $1M.

 

[LHG]

Royals, Cubs, Giants interested in Gerardo Parra

Gerardo Parra, anyone?

I know his name has been mentioned before. Decent bat, former two-time GG winner, but I'm concerned about the dropoff in his defensive numbers:

Gerardo Parra Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

If his defensive dropoff was for a "curable" reason, there looks to be some decent value. He supposedly has 3-year offers in hand, but is looking for a four-year deal.

His last arb year he made $6.2mm. Worth 4/36 or 4/40 if his defense comes back? I have no idea if that would get it done.

Which player would you rather have (2015 stats)?
Player A - .291/.368/.413 (-0.9 dWAR) for $3.5 million in 2016
Player B - .291/.328/.452 (-1.5 dWAR) for $9 million in 2016

 

[LHG]

If this is true, the Giants may want to stay out of the Heyward sweepstakes as it may get out of control really fast.

 

[Hangman]

Giants are close to signing Alex Gordon and Leake according to espn.

 

[Stokes1931]

Which player would you rather have (2015 stats)?
Player A - .291/.368/.413 (-0.9 dWAR) for $3.5 million in 2016 (age 31)
Player B - .291/.328/.452 (-1.5 dWAR) for $9 million in 2016 (age 28)

I'll take Player A.

How about Player C?

Player C - .293/.359/.439 oWar 3.8, dWar 2.0, $????million in 2016

 

[LHG]

I'll take Player A.

How about Player C?

Player C - .293/.359/.439 oWar 3.8, dWar 2.0, $????million in 2016

Depends on how much money he commands. Player A has similar offensive numbers but grades worse defensively. Is the slight upgrade in defense worth the extra millions he'll get?

 

[Mays-Fan]

Giants are close to signing Alex Gordon and Leake according to espn.

Link?

 

[LHG]

Link?

Not sure the article title is completely accurate - Giants shop for a starter to make #EvenYear dreams real