Hart Trophy Finalists

[awaz]

I would argue that it is about case #2 here because we're talking about 3 forwards. Can anyone make a case that one is better at defense over another? The +/- is subjective to the overall team in a lot of cases, but FO% to me is a big factor for the defensive side because it's an opportunity to directly defend the puck from your opponent. Crosby is known to do this regularly on the Penguins penalty kill. The reason that I didn't put up OV's numbers is because his don't really apply across the board in the same way as the two centers.

eidt: misunderstood your post the first time through. more thinking required.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Why don't we ever do polls for these types of things?

I'm trying to take my mind off of the playoffs right now, so I'm jumping back into the regular season discussions, heh.

Here's my issue with Crosby not getting it. It seems like he gets penalized because he plays on a good team. Yeah, the Penguins would do better without Crosby than the Isles would without Tavares, but does that measure their exact value or the lack of value around them? Could the Penguins win the Cup without Crosby? Could the Isles win the Cup with Tavares?

They play the same position so this shouldn't be that difficult. Crosby finished the season with better numbers even though Tavares played more games. How does that not scream "more valuable?" Is showing up and not helping a team better than being on the bench and not helping?

Measuring defensive ability is difficult because we won't all agree on the variables, but we can measure offense. Since they're both forwards, that's a lot to go by.

Crosby: 36 games - 15g - 41a - 56p - +26 - .543 FO%
Tavares: 48 games - 28g - 19a - 47p - -2 - .494 FO%

Which one do you think adds more value? To me, Crosby contributed more to his team's offense in 36 games than Tavares could in 48. This is why I believe that Crosby deserves the Hart as adding the most value to his team.

/Sorry about all the freaking questions in this

Can Tavares have Kunitz or Neal please? Can Malkin or Iginla join him in L.I.? The Penguins are a playoff team WITHOUT Crosby. Without Tavares the Islanders are in the bottom 5 of the league.

However, I look at the Hart Trophy differently than probably most. I see it as the Most Valuable Player to his TEAM Award. Not the Best Player in the League Award.

 

[DChero]

Can Tavares have Kunitz or Neal please? Can Malkin or Iginla join him in L.I.? The Penguins are a playoff team WITHOUT Crosby. Without Tavares the Islanders are in the bottom 5 of the league.

However, I look at the Hart Trophy differently than probably most. I see it as the Most Valuable Player to his TEAM Award. Not the Best Player in the League Award.

Why are we using the playoffs as a benchmark? Crosby helped his team top the entire conference during his time. They also had a pretty substantial win streak as well. I'd say that the Penguins are a playoff team without him, but they're aren't an elite team without him. Tavares makes an average team good enough for the playoffs.

Value does not simply equal qualifying for the playoffs. Did anyone care who Dupuis and Kunitz were before they were playing with Crosby? No.

Iginla didn't get to play with him during the regular season, so we can't exactly count the guys added after he got hurt.

I'm not making a case for Crosby being the best player (not purposely), I'm making a case for what he adds to the team. He's added more value in the faceoff circle, turned Kunitz and Dupuis into names to fear and provided an elite scoring touch that helped his team win games even when the defense was sub par in the early part of the season.

EDIT: Sorry if this is getting to sound a little like "my team's player is better than yours." I don't mean for that, heh.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Why are we using the playoffs as a benchmark? Crosby helped his team top the entire conference during his time. They also had a pretty substantial win streak as well. I'd say that the Penguins are a playoff team without him, but they're aren't an elite team without him. Tavares makes an average team good enough for the playoffs.

Value does not simply equal qualifying for the playoffs. Did anyone care who Dupuis and Kunitz were before they were playing with Crosby? No.

Iginla didn't get to play with him during the regular season, so we can't exactly count the guys added after he got hurt.

I'm not making a case for Crosby being the best player (not purposely), I'm making a case for what he adds to the team. He's added more value in the faceoff circle, turned Kunitz and Dupuis into names to fear and provided an elite scoring touch that helped his team win games even when the defense was sub par in the early part of the season.

EDIT: Sorry if this is getting to sound a little like "my team's player is better than yours." I don't mean for that, heh.

Maybe Dupuis, but I'm not gonna give you Kunitz on that one. He was part of Anaheim's Cup winning team and had 25 goals that season and was named an alternate captain the following year, so he wasn't some under-the-radar player. At least out West.

 

[DChero]

Maybe Dupuis, but I'm not gonna give you Kunitz on that one. He was part of Anaheim's Cup winning team and had 25 goals that season and was named an alternate captain the following year, so he wasn't some under-the-radar player. At least out West.

The Penguins received Kunitz and (what was considered to be) a top prospect for Ryan Whitney. Whitney was known as a locker room cancer at that time, so it's not like he was considered to be strong addition.

I believe that Mr. Kunitz also had a pretty good center in Anaheim too.

 

[Dacks]

Little stat I saw on another message board. Here's the Hart Trophy winners for the last 30 years, and their team's divisional & overall ranking:

Since 1982-83 season:
Wayne Gretzky - (Oilers finished 1st in div, 2nd overall)
Wayne Gretzky - (Oilers finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Wayne Gretzky - (Oilers finished 1st in div, 2nd overall)
Wayne Gretzky - (Oilers finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Wayne Gretzky - (Oilers finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Mario Lemieux - (Penguins finished 5th in div, 12th overall)
Wayne Gretzky - (Kings finished 2nd in div, 4th overall)
Mark Messier - (Oilers finished 2nd in div, 5th overall)
Brett Hull - (Blues finished 2nd in div, 2nd overall)
Mark Messier - (Rangers finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Mario Lemieux - (Penguins finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Sergei Fedorov - (Red Wings finished 1st in div, 4th overall)
Eric Lindros - (Flyers finished 1st in div, 5th overall)
Mario Lemieux - (Penguins finished 1st in div, 4th overall)
Dominik Hasek - (Sabres finished 1st in div, 6th overall)
Dominik Hasek - (Sabres finished 4th in div, 10th overall)
Jaromir Jagr - (Penguins finished 3rd in div, 10th overall)
Chris Pronger - (Blues finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Joe Sakic - (Avalanche finished 1st in div, 1st overall)
Jose Theodore - (Canadiens finished 4th in div, 18th overall)
Peter Forsberg - (Avalanche finished 1st in div, 6th overall)
Martin St. Louis - (Lightning finished 1st in div, 2nd overall)
Joe Thornton - (Sharks finished 2nd in div, 11th overall)
Sidney Crosby - (Penguins finished 2nd in div, 10th overall)
Alex Ovechkin - (Capitals finished 1st in div, 11th overall)
Alex Ovechkin - (Capitals finished 1st in div, 4th overall)
Henrik Sedin - (Canucks finished 1st in div, 5th overall)
Corey Perry - (Ducks finished 2nd in div, 9th overall)
Evgeni Malkin - (Penguins finished 2nd in div, 4th overall)

So, one thing that really stands out: only four times has the winner's team not been top 10 in points in the NHL. Obviously, playing on a dominant team is not detrimental to Hart voting.

Secondly, looking at that scoring list, nobody finished lower than 6th in the Art Ross race - Messier in 1992. (Didn't bother checking 66 or 99 so I might be wrong.)

The Islanders finished 16th in the league points-wise, and JT finished 17th in the Art Ross race.

I'm not commenting on JT's ability, or how the trophy is voted. Just pointing out that history is not in his favour.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Why are we using the playoffs as a benchmark? Crosby helped his team top the entire conference during his time. They also had a pretty substantial win streak as well. I'd say that the Penguins are a playoff team without him, but they're aren't an elite team without him. Tavares makes an average team good enough for the playoffs.

Value does not simply equal qualifying for the playoffs. Did anyone care who Dupuis and Kunitz were before they were playing with Crosby? No.

Iginla didn't get to play with him during the regular season, so we can't exactly count the guys added after he got hurt.

I'm not making a case for Crosby being the best player (not purposely), I'm making a case for what he adds to the team. He's added more value in the faceoff circle, turned Kunitz and Dupuis into names to fear and provided an elite scoring touch that helped his team win games even when the defense was sub par in the early part of the season.

EDIT: Sorry if this is getting to sound a little like "my team's player is better than yours." I don't mean for that, heh.

It's well known how good Kunitz is. He has more cups than Crosby or Malkin do.

 

[detroit_schlegs]

Hart Trophy Finalists: #Isles John Tavares, #Pens Sidney Crosby and #Caps Alex Ovechkin.

Tavares certainly deserves to win it, but things could change, especially if the Commis has anything to do with it. All I can say is that I'm pleased that Pierre McGuire doesn't have a vote, since, although he praises John's talents regularly, Sid is his boy - he's fixated on the kid.

 

[mattola]

Ovechkin wins the HART. I really thought Tavares deserved it more for what he did for that team. Maybe he would have won if Luongo was his goalie i guess that will have to happen next year when it happens

Closest Hart Trophy race since 2002. Ovechkin gets 1090 points to win Hart. Crosby second with 1058.

 

[forty_three]

Ovechkin with his third. Which now makes him officially three times more valuable than Crosby.

No contest, mad dog.




Still thought it should be Tavares though.