Harper or Machado

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Well, first of all I didn't specifically say he was. Although I will say that now because I do believe he is top-5. But you can't base his abilities off of just one year. But there are more stats than just the ones you mentioned anyway, I haven't looked at them recently so I still don't know if he would've been top 5 anyway, I'm just saying there's more to it than just those specific stats in his one most recent season.

No shit? That's amazing.

Yes, I would rank him top five going forward, but again, the thrust of my post was that he's not head-and-shoulders over other SS. He's a top shortstop, no doubt, but it's not like he's the only one.

Over the last three years, Harper has been one of the top hitters in the game. Machado, not so much.

 

[navamind]

SLG% and OPS, although they are real stats, they overestimate power and walks... now I am not saying I don't use them... But they are really just for a glance, there are better stats out there... which you know this...


what is nice about BA and OBP is that they measure what they actually intend to measure...

But BA and OBP weigh singles/doubles/triples/home runs as being of equal value. They aren't. BA also ignores HBPs and walks. A walk/HBP might not be as valuable as a hit, but it's still not making an out and reaching base. That still has a lot of value. The only thing BA measures is how often a player gets a hit, it's not a good stat for evaluating hitters outside of it's intended use. Raw OPS is just dumb, it treats OBP and SLG% equally when they aren't. OBP is scaled .000-1.000 and SLG% is scaled .000-4.000. A point of OBP is also considered to be 1.8x more valuable than a point of SLG%.

wOBA is a much better stat than any of those. And Harper blows Machado out in that (career .380 wOBA to .345 wOBA)

 

[navamind]

Well sure I'm not saying you just run out and find a hitter comparable to Bryce Harper... but you can find something closer in comparison to what Machado does at SS. Finding a combination of Machado's batting at SS is extremely difficult. Finding a player with his batting AND defense at the position he plays is a ridiculous expectation... Correa is the only other player that comes to mind off the top of my head. Finding Harper's batting ability at RF is extremely difficult as well.

Again it's extremely close. If we're talking dedicated batting and ignore position/defense (Harper's defense is above average mind you), I'd go Harper.

he's played 63 games at SS.

come on

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But BA and OBP weigh singles/doubles/triples/home runs as being of equal value. They aren't. BA also ignores HBPs and walks. A walk/HBP might not be as valuable as a hit, but it's still not making an out and reaching base. That still has a lot of value. The only thing BA measures is how often a player gets a hit, it's not a good stat for evaluating hitters outside of it's intended use. Raw OPS is just dumb, it treats OBP and SLG% equally when they aren't. OBP is scaled .000-1.000 and SLG% is scaled .000-4.000. A point of OBP is also considered to be 1.8x more valuable than a point of SLG%.

wOBA is a much better stat than any of those. And Harper blows Machado out in that (career .380 wOBA to .345 wOBA)

i agree about harper vs machado... i was just arguing the stats... and i agree wOBA is much better than OPS and SLG%

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But BA and OBP weigh singles/doubles/triples/home runs as being of equal value. They aren't. BA also ignores HBPs and walks. A walk/HBP might not be as valuable as a hit, but it's still not making an out and reaching base. That still has a lot of value. The only thing BA measures is how often a player gets a hit, it's not a good stat for evaluating hitters outside of it's intended use. Raw OPS is just dumb, it treats OBP and SLG% equally when they aren't. OBP is scaled .000-1.000 and SLG% is scaled .000-4.000. A point of OBP is also considered to be 1.8x more valuable than a point of SLG%.

wOBA is a much better stat than any of those. And Harper blows Machado out in that (career .380 wOBA to .345 wOBA)

BA measures how often you get a hit(even if AB is a Bullshit stat)
OBP measures how often you get on base( PA is much better than AB)

both are the best way possible to measure those two...

SLG% is a arbitrary ratio stat that was created to keep things simple... SIMPLICITY does not mean accurate...

OPS is mathematically retarded!!! it is just a stat that was intended to be an all inclusive stat, and the end result looks pretty... if the end result didn't look good, then nobody would talk about the stat...

 

[navamind]

BA measures how often you get a hit(even if AB is a Bullshit stat)
OBP measures how often you get on base( PA is much better than AB)

both are the best way possible to measure those two...

SLG% is a arbitrary ratio stat that was created to keep things simple... SIMPLICITY does not mean accurate...

OPS is mathematically retarded!!! it is just a stat that was intended to be an all inclusive stat, and the end result looks pretty... if the end result didn't look good, then nobody would talk about the stat...

fully agreed. I mostly cite BA/OBP/SLG to try not to confuse people, OPS is far more accepted than wOBA/wRC+ (though they've gotten considerable mainstream usage). They're still pretty good at telling you how good someone is offensively, they're just wonky.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

fully agreed. I mostly cite BA/OBP/SLG to try not to confuse people, OPS is far more accepted than wOBA/wRC+ (though they've gotten considerable mainstream usage). They're still pretty good at telling you how good someone is offensively, they're just wonky.

wOBA will never get mainstream because it uses constants that change year to year... constants should be constant...


I have always thought a stat that you cant calculate yourself will never be a good stat...