Harbaugh "sticking to guns"

[Mozart'sGhost]

My question would be is this system gonna win you football games in todays NFL?
This is a passing league now and if you don't have a system in place that can help you move the ball threw the air then you are toast.
How did the Cowboys win that game? It sure wasn't because they ran the ball well. They had a total of 45 yards running. Look at every successful team in today's NFL and you will begin to see a pattern. NFL rules have changed now and they favor a high passing attack. The NFL knows that fans want scoring so that is why the changes have been made.
Now the question is...........what type of "system" does Harbaugh want to run?

Good question. I had the same thought.

 

[MHSL82]

When a team opts to have the penalty assessed on the kickoff, can they choose to have it taken on the result of the return or do they have to kick it closer? It just seemed that we would have been kicking into the endzone either way, so we essentially declined the penalty with no gain (though the 3 points was the issue, not the yards).

I guess if we kicked a touchback, we couldn't make them start at the 5, could we? So I guess I answered my own question, maybe.

Since we're talking in hindsight, I wish we had on side kicked it as a surprise. We'd lose, what, 20 yards if lost? (And of course, everyone would be saying how we'd've won had we not done that. And speaking of hindsight, I wish Alex had run to the right instead of diving on his run on 3rd and 13. And completed the pass to Walker. And. And. And.

 

[MHSL82]

Just the way that drive was going, I had an eery feeling something would go wrong.

Of all the players though, I think Tramaine Brock lost this game for us. Gives up the Miles Austin TD when he slipped and fell (Slipped against Devry Henderson in the preseason too, seems to be our Anthony Dixon of the defensive backfield), also played loose coverage on Austin on a 3rd & 6 with 1:58 remaining in the 4th quarter, which they converted and got them into FG range. Yeah, he got an INT we turned into a touchdown, not to take anything away from him, but they would have punted the ball even if he didn't get the INT. Can't wait for Spencer to come back!

They would have punted and Ginn would have saved the day (though we did score and we weren't actually trying to score quickly).

 

[deep9er]

My question would be is this system gonna win you football games in todays NFL?
This is a passing league now and if you don't have a system in place that can help you move the ball threw the air then you are toast.
How did the Cowboys win that game? It sure wasn't because they ran the ball well. They had a total of 45 yards running. Look at every successful team in today's NFL and you will begin to see a pattern. NFL rules have changed now and they favor a high passing attack. The NFL knows that fans want scoring so that is why the changes have been made.
Now the question is...........what type of "system" does Harbaugh want to run?

he's already made it clear.......a WCO.

but he can't just step in and install it in one month, you can't waltz in and create an explosive passing offense? not with this QB and this O-line. like all good coaches, you go with what your current players do best. as your team gets better - i think they will - then you add to it.

fans are crying over the lost but at least we were position to win, very good position. in recent years, we'd be the ones down by 10, if not more. so whatever Harbaugh is starting out with, we're in the game.

its now game 3 so believe we'll START to see more offense.

 

[deep9er]

When a team opts to have the penalty assessed on the kickoff, can they choose to have it taken on the result of the return or do they have to kick it closer? It just seemed that we would have been kicking into the endzone either way, so we essentially declined the penalty with no gain (though the 3 points was the issue, not the yards).

I guess if we kicked a touchback, we couldn't make them start at the 5, could we? So I guess I answered my own question, maybe.

Since we're talking in hindsight, I wish we had on side kicked it as a surprise. We'd lose, what, 20 yards if lost? (And of course, everyone would be saying how we'd've won had we not done that. And speaking of hindsight, I wish Alex had run to the right instead of diving on his run on 3rd and 13. And completed the pass to Walker. And. And. And.

good topic, at the time i was thinking of on side too, or at least something other than kicking it out. but giving them the ball near their 40 hurts the purpose of going up by two scores, you give them a shorter field for at least a field goal.

then i was thinking squib kick? but this doesn't give you a chance to recover it and not likely to reach their 20 yard line?

so after further thought, i agree with the decision (in that scenario) to kick it out.

 

[FourBeeDen]

good topic, at the time i was thinking of on side too, or at least something other than kicking it out. but giving them the ball near their 40 hurts the purpose of going up by two scores, you give them a shorter field for at least a field goal.

then i was thinking squib kick? but this doesn't give you a chance to recover it and not likely to reach their 20 yard line?

so after further thought, i agree with the decision (in that scenario) to kick it out.

too bad the kicker was not Neil Rackers.. Remember the loop kick that AZ used on the Niners a couple of years back that Spikes tried to catch but fumbled and AZ recovered lol

 

[coffeeman]

he's already made it clear.......a WCO.

but he can't just step in and install it in one month, you can't waltz in and create an explosive passing offense? not with this QB and this O-line. like all good coaches, you go with what your current players do best. as your team gets better - i think they will - then you add to it.

fans are crying over the lost but at least we were position to win, very good position. in recent years, we'd be the ones down by 10, if not more. so whatever Harbaugh is starting out with, we're in the game.

its now game 3 so believe we'll START to see more offense.

Oh I see. So do you want to define for me what the WCO offense is? Or the better question would what is Harbaughs interpretation of the WCO? It should be clear right? The WCO offense has become a catch phrase for way too many offenses. It has has been tweaked more then Charlie Sheen.

With all the dual tight end sets and watching Alex in the shotgun and watching all the shifting the 49ers were doing I could have sworn I was watching Bill Walshs offense.
All sarcasm a side there were things that did resemble the once run WCO on Sunday like mismatches with players and certain patterns and so on . I was just waiting for them to run the sweep
I understand about these not being his players and that he will improve this offense only because it has been so bad for so long. My concern about Harbaugh right now is his approach and principals .The running game is essential but if you think that it's going to be the factor in winning games today then you are deceiving yourself.

As far installing his own players, I get that. The thing about the Cowboy loss is that it did resemble the Singletary years in the sense of dropping early season games that they were in control of....The Vikings and Falcons both come to mind. If they would have won both of those games against playoff teams on the road it would have helped change this teams mindset. Teams need to learn how to win close football games.
Lets see how the 49ers do this week in a bounce back against against a rookie QB on the road. I like Harbaughs game plan of keeping the team in Ohio after the Bengal game to prepare for the Eagles. It could be big coming back 2-2 as opposed to 1-3.

 

[CalamityX11]

Being on the east coast, stanford games weren't exactly on demand, only the highlighted primetime viewings....

For those who have watched the Harbaugh led Stanford offenses, has the SF 49ers offense resembled that of Stanford after two games? (play design, formations, playcalling etc...)

 

[MHSL82]

Oh I see. So do you want to define for me what the WCO offense is? Or the better question would what is Harbaughs interpretation of the WCO? It should be clear right? The WCO offense has become a catch phrase for way too many offenses. It has has been tweaked more then Charlie Sheen.

With all the dual tight end sets and watching Alex in the shotgun and watching all the shifting the 49ers were doing I could have sworn I was watching Bill Walshs offense.
All sarcasm a side there were things that did resemble the once run WCO on Sunday like mismatches with players and certain patterns and so on . I was just waiting for them to run the sweep
I understand about these not being his players and that he will improve this offense only because it has been so bad for so long. My concern about Harbaugh right now is his approach and principals .The running game is essential but if you think that it's going to be the factor in winning games today then you are deceiving yourself.

As far installing his own players, I get that. The thing about the Cowboy loss is that it did resemble the Singletary years in the sense of dropping early season games that they were in control of....The Vikings and Falcons both come to mind. If they would have won both of those games against playoff teams on the road it would have helped change this teams mindset. Teams need to learn how to win close football games.
Lets see how the 49ers do this week in a bounce back against against a rookie QB on the road. I like Harbaughs game plan of keeping the team in Ohio after the Bengal game to prepare for the Eagles. It could be big coming back 2-2 as opposed to 1-3.

I guess I don't understand your causal argument - the Cincinnatti game is before the Eagles game and I can only assume that was the game you assumed we'd win or have the best shot at. How does staying in Ohio after the win/loss change anything in Philadelphia if the Philadelphia game is a loss? Now, if you are saying that staying in Ohio helps us have a better chance at beating Philadelphia, then I agree, and coming back 3-1 could make a big difference than 2-2 or 1-3. If we do lose to the Bengals, then I figure staying helps us against the Eagles, at least for body times. But I assume that wasn't your guess.

 

[Jikkle]

I'm willing to give Harbs the benefit of doubt for now as I think eventually we'll have a more aggressive passing attack as time wears on.

While we'll probably lean on the run more than some offenses I don't think running the ball is completely out of style and I think we'll wind up leaning far more on passing than running at the end of the day.

I think we need a far more scarier passing attack though to open up the running game because right now teams are focusing on stopping Gore and will continue to do so till the passing attack forces them to back off of that.

And despite Smith being our QB I think the offense will continue to improve and get better week to week as players become more accustomed to the scheme and more plays are inserted and worked on.

 

[deep9er]

Oh I see. So do you want to define for me what the WCO offense is? Or the better question would what is Harbaughs interpretation of the WCO? It should be clear right? The WCO offense has become a catch phrase for way too many offenses. It has has been tweaked more then Charlie Sheen.

With all the dual tight end sets and watching Alex in the shotgun and watching all the shifting the 49ers were doing I could have sworn I was watching Bill Walshs offense.
All sarcasm a side there were things that did resemble the once run WCO on Sunday like mismatches with players and certain patterns and so on . I was just waiting for them to run the sweep
I understand about these not being his players and that he will improve this offense only because it has been so bad for so long. My concern about Harbaugh right now is his approach and principals .The running game is essential but if you think that it's going to be the factor in winning games today then you are deceiving yourself.

As far installing his own players, I get that. The thing about the Cowboy loss is that it did resemble the Singletary years in the sense of dropping early season games that they were in control of....The Vikings and Falcons both come to mind. If they would have won both of those games against playoff teams on the road it would have helped change this teams mindset. Teams need to learn how to win close football games.
Lets see how the 49ers do this week in a bounce back against against a rookie QB on the road. I like Harbaughs game plan of keeping the team in Ohio after the Bengal game to prepare for the Eagles. It could be big coming back 2-2 as opposed to 1-3.

don't think we have a difference of opinion but there's likely a difference in time frame? it APPEARS you're like most fans concerned about Harbaugh's offense? ie you handful of fans expected to see "explosiveness" from game 1?

before the season even started, i'd have bet we'd start out more with running the ball....ie "lean run". i'd have bet he WOULD'T ask Alex Smith and O-line to execute downfield passes? you already know the reasons for it and thats what we're seeing.

so now this is the point where we should START to see more, so yes we're looking forward to Cincinnati. Harbaugh will not jump to "run-n-shoot", but he'll start adding 'downfield' plays. HOWEVER, if the O-line continues to struggle i'd rather he keep closer to what he's doing now.

btw - IMO Harbaugh doesn't need many changes with HIS type of players, he just needs a quality QB. one with more intangibles, not more physical gifts.

 

[Cerathalis]

My question would be is this system gonna win you football games in todays NFL?
This is a passing league now and if you don't have a system in place that can help you move the ball threw the air then you are toast.
How did the Cowboys win that game? It sure wasn't because they ran the ball well. They had a total of 45 yards running. Look at every successful team in today's NFL and you will begin to see a pattern. NFL rules have changed now and they favor a high passing attack. The NFL knows that fans want scoring so that is why the changes have been made.
Now the question is...........what type of "system" does Harbaugh want to run?

I was reading some of the posts about passing being the new way to win. And my first thought was "for regular season yes".

Only 2 Teams out of the last 10 Super bowls have won while rushing for less yardage than their opponents: HickokSports.com - History - The Super Bowl But to support your point of passing being the new way, both of those teams are the last 2 supper bowls (Saints / Packers). So maybe passing is the new way.

I then was searching for a lazy way to figure out the average rushing yardage / playoff win and stumbled across this site:

Advanced NFL Stats: Game Theory and Run/Pass Balance

Its an interesting read using game theory about matching up play calling. Not taking into context each individual situation, 63% run 37% pass would provide the best generic match-up for play calling.

-
No matter how you slice it though, if you have the luxury of balance its going to be ideal.

We have 2 major problems in trying to get to that balance point.
-The threat of our passing game is not enough to force teams to respect the possibility of balance.
-Our talent is not great enough that the players are winning their one on one match-ups. We come out in a 2 TE set with the TE's being backup O Line in a formation that even my mom would be calling a run defense against and the result ends up 2.4 yards.

I would like to see the formations create more space, imo space is a good component to forcing and taking advance of mistakes.

 

[deep9er]

I was reading some of the posts about passing being the new way to win. And my first thought was "for regular season yes".

Only 2 Teams out of the last 10 Super bowls have won while rushing for less yardage than their opponents: HickokSports.com - History - The Super Bowl But to support your point of passing being the new way, both of those teams are the last 2 supper bowls (Saints / Packers). So maybe passing is the new way.

I then was searching for a lazy way to figure out the average rushing yardage / playoff win and stumbled across this site:

Advanced NFL Stats: Game Theory and Run/Pass Balance

Its an interesting read using game theory about matching up play calling. Not taking into context each individual situation, 63% run 37% pass would provide the best generic match-up for play calling.

-
No matter how you slice it though, if you have the luxury of balance its going to be ideal.

We have 2 major problems in trying to get to that balance point.
-The threat of our passing game is not enough to force teams to respect the possibility of balance.
-Our talent is not great enough that the players are winning their one on one match-ups. We come out in a 2 TE set with the TE's being backup O Line in a formation that even my mom would be calling a run defense against and the result ends up 2.4 yards.

I would like to see the formations create more space, imo space is a good component to forcing and taking advance of mistakes.

always felt balance was the way to go, still do.

that said, will not argue about the passing trend nowadays, so IF you have the players to do it, yes do it.

agree our talent base isn't good enough for explosive plays, but doesn't stop fans from expecting it?

 

[coffeeman]

I guess I don't understand your causal argument - the Cincinnatti game is before the Eagles game and I can only assume that was the game you assumed we'd win or have the best shot at. How does staying in Ohio after the win/loss change anything in Philadelphia if the Philadelphia game is a loss? Now, if you are saying that staying in Ohio helps us have a better chance at beating Philadelphia, then I agree, and coming back 3-1 could make a big difference than 2-2 or 1-3. If we do lose to the Bengals, then I figure staying helps us against the Eagles, at least for body times. But I assume that wasn't your guess.

A few to many assumptions here so I will make it simple.
The bolded, underlined part will help you to understand what I meant

 

[coffeeman]

I was reading some of the posts about passing being the new way to win. And my first thought was "for regular season yes".

Only 2 Teams out of the last 10 Super bowls have won while rushing for less yardage than their opponents: HickokSports.com - History - The Super Bowl But to support your point of passing being the new way, both of those teams are the last 2 supper bowls (Saints / Packers). So maybe passing is the new way.

I then was searching for a lazy way to figure out the average rushing yardage / playoff win and stumbled across this site:

Advanced NFL Stats: Game Theory and Run/Pass Balance

Its an interesting read using game theory about matching up play calling. Not taking into context each individual situation, 63% run 37% pass would provide the best generic match-up for play calling.

-
No matter how you slice it though, if you have the luxury of balance its going to be ideal.

We have 2 major problems in trying to get to that balance point.
-The threat of our passing game is not enough to force teams to respect the possibility of balance.
-Our talent is not great enough that the players are winning their one on one match-ups. We come out in a 2 TE set with the TE's being backup O Line in a formation that even my mom would be calling a run defense against and the result ends up 2.4 yards.

I would like to see the formations create more space, imo space is a good component to forcing and taking advance of mistakes.

Interesting stuff. I am busy working but I will try to look through some of this those stats later. MW should be able to shred through that.

 

[coffeeman]

don't think we have a difference of opinion but there's likely a difference in time frame? it APPEARS you're like most fans concerned about Harbaugh's offense? ie you handful of fans expected to see "explosiveness" from game 1?

before the season even started, i'd have bet we'd start out more with running the ball....ie "lean run". i'd have bet he WOULD'T ask Alex Smith and O-line to execute downfield passes? you already know the reasons for it and thats what we're seeing.

so now this is the point where we should START to see more, so yes we're looking forward to Cincinnati. Harbaugh will not jump to "run-n-shoot", but he'll start adding 'downfield' plays. HOWEVER, if the O-line continues to struggle i'd rather he keep closer to what he's doing now.

btw - IMO Harbaugh doesn't need many changes with HIS type of players, he just needs a quality QB. one with more intangibles, not more physical gifts.

I don't care about explosiveness deep. All I care about are wins and what is the best way to get them. If 3 yards and a cloud of dust would work then I would say go for it. It worked before in this league but it sure doesn't now.

The NFL is an ever evolving league and it isn't to hard to see which teams are successful and why. Players are and always will be the number one cause of success but how you use the talent is the key.

 

[sayheykid1]

Good question. I had the same thought.

I don;t know what else can be done with the mess Jed, Trent and Paraag have left Hargaugh.
The QB is incapable of running a passing offense, the receivers aren't that great, the o-line is shaky at best...

The sad thing is that the guys that built this are mostly still around and have been promoted.

 

[MHSL82]

Being on the east coast, stanford games weren't exactly on demand, only the highlighted primetime viewings....

For those who have watched the Harbaugh led Stanford offenses, has the SF 49ers offense resembled that of Stanford after two games? (play design, formations, playcalling etc...)

I read this in the comment section of a Barrows article. Hope it helps:

"Balance of run/pass and whether Harbaugh relied a lot on the run. I've done some additional research that leads me to believe that Harbaugh likely did run heavily after getting a lead, especially in 2010. Thus I believe 2011 will look like the Cardinal 2009 season with Toby Gerhart and 2012 (or 2013 at the latest) will look more like the Cardinal's 2010 season with Andrew Luck if Harbaugh finds his QB in the 2011draft/FA Check them out and let me know what you think. (Stats source http://www.cfbstats.com)

2010 Stats

• Andrew Luck passed 226 times in the first half and only 146 times in the second half of games.

• Stepfan Taylor rushed 92 times in the first half and 147 times in the second half of games

• Wilkerson rushed 33 times in the first half and 56 times in the second half of games

• The Cardinal outscored their opponents 23.15 points to 6.92 points in the first half of games in the 2010 season. Thus, on average, Harbaugh was sitting on a 17 point lead going into the half, mostly due to a heavy Luck-based passing attack.

2009 Stats

• Andrew Luck passed 171 times in the first half and 166 in the second half of games

Toby Gerhart rushed 191 times in the first half and 152 in the second half of gamesThe Cardinal outscored their opponents 20.53 points to 12 points in the first half (even in losses to Oregon St, Arizona, Cal, and OU in the bowl game). Thus, the Cardinal ran slightly more than they passed in the first half, but were sitting on a smaller lead (about 8 points).Conclusions:In 2010, with better talent and a more seasoned passer in Luck, the Cardinal was pass heavy in the first half, and run heavy in the second half (a Bill Walsh WCO trademark). The Cardinal outscored their opponents early and often, and then ran to protect the lead, losing once to Oregon, in 2009, with not as great talent, a worse record, and a redshirt freshman Luck (who didn't play in the bowl game), and a dominating runner in Gerhart, Harbaugh relied much more on Gerhart. Still, it appears the Cardinal outscored their opponents in the first half and ran to protect the lead in the second. I suspect their defense wasn't as good because their box scores show they lost more games in this season in the second half, usually.The summary:

1. Harbaugh does not stick stubbornly to a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense or treat the QB like an afterthought.

2. Harbaugh will build a rushing based offense if he has a good to great runner and if his passing game isn't up to par yet. (That's the 49ers right now.)

3. Harbaugh can identify who is going to help the team win more and tailor the offense to match. In 2009, it was clearly Gerhart. In 2010, Gerhart was in the NFL and clearly Luck was ready to be a superstar college passer.

4. Harbaugh wants to jump out to a large early lead whether run or pass (but usually pass if he has a good QB), and then sit on it in the second half by usually pounding the rock. He's done this in the Seattle game and the Cowboy game so far. "

Read more: 49ers Blog and Q&A: Six sacks: Breaking down the breakdowns

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

I swear if we come out from that game without exposing Clements..... I'm officially declaring hate on Harbs' offensive pedigree....

Jerry Rice agrees with you. he just said on "Audibles" that Harbaugh needs to take the shackles off od Smith and let him go after the Cincy secondary.

 

[deep9er]

I don't care about explosiveness deep. All I care about are wins and what is the best way to get them. If 3 yards and a cloud of dust would work then I would say go for it. It worked before in this league but it sure doesn't now.

The NFL is an ever evolving league and it isn't to hard to see which teams are successful and why. Players are and always will be the number one cause of success but how you use the talent is the key.

trust me Coffeman, i'm with you on wins and positive i can handle '3 yards and a cloud of dust' better than you, pretty sure?

anyways, don't disagree with how you use talent either, thats a no brainer. for NOW, all i'm trying to get across is.....if you don't have enough talent (currently), don't force it.

not sure its you in particular, but some are very dissapointed we're not throwing more AND downfield? my feeling is its not surprising we aren't, we shouldn't ask this current unit to execute something they can't. wait.....don't ask them to do it more often that is, not never do it.

our talent base isn't Brady, Rivers, or even Fitzpatrick.

but we should start to see more now cause its game 3, this O-line should be progressing and allowing more (run and pass).