Great Article on Kobe being overrated

[lakersrule]

What I dont understand is why Laker fans undervalue Shaq when Kobe is in the discussion.

What I don't understand is why Kobe haters undervalue Kobe's role on those title teams. Opposing teams didn't simply focus on Shaq in the post. Kobe demanded defensive attention on the perimeter and saw plenty of help defenders when going to the hole. There are lots of highlights out there of Kobe getting to the paint and dishing it to Shaq for the easy dunk because Shaq's defender helped on Kobe. Kobe was the go to guy a lot of time in crunch time as well (remember the whole hack a Shaq deal). It's funny how hard haters try to marginalize Kobe's career.

 

[heatmyshorts]

I guess your memory is crap. Kobe did indeed shut Iverson down when needed. Or maybe it's not your memory. Maybe you're just dumb. How do you think Kobe made first team all defense 9 times?

Uh, kobe was a scoring threat, that's about it...Duh.

PJ made a coaching decision by freeing Kobe off Iverson after the defeat. He instead put Tyronne Lue on Iverson. If I recall correctly the Lakers won thanks to Tyronne Lues defense which included holding Iversons jersey, hence he was nicknamed the Glue Lue. The move also freed Kobe offensively. As usual Shaq remained consistent Iin scoring and in defense.

 

[Vitamike]

Okay you first state this....

Is that what it's about?
Even if many of those championships are from 50-60 years ago and took place thousands of miles away?

The Heat can sit at any table if comparing apples to apples since their modern day expansion entry into the league in 1987, and would be the head of the table against the vast majority of teams.

And then this...

Can't be serious about what?
In my opinion, the LA Lakers are the most storied franchise of all time.
The Minneapolis years, I just dont see why any LA fan would care about those.

Also, I know the Lakers have been the better franchise since 1987, but once again, starting at the same year isn't apples to apples because we all know it is a lengthy process to get from expansion to contender.

Anyway, I can appreciate that some people put more weight on overall history vs current play, but I don't.

I view sports as seasonal entertainment and am much more concerned with what us currently going on vs what I might have enjoyed or not enjoyed years ago.

Does it really make you feel satisfied to remember the Lakers won 4-5 years ago vs having the feeling of being a contender now?

Dude you brought team history into the convo.

But to answer your question, yeah for me it kind of does....

Since the Lakers moved to LA (For me, in my lifetime) they have been to the Finals 26 times (That's making it to the Championship Series over 50 percent of the time) and won 12 of those meeting (That's winning it all, again in my lifetime, nearly 25 percent of the time). Over the last 33 years (For me since HS) they have been to the Finals 16 times (That's making it nearly 50 percent of the time) and won 10 of those meetings. (That's winning it all over 30 percent of the time, again in the last 33 years).

No other franchise in any sport has even come close to this type of success, it blows me away and yeah I do think, as a fan, that it is something to be proud of. Now do those Minneapolis Lakers Championships count? Of course they do, they are Lakers accomplishments. Those are the accomplishments of the organization, however for me all I can really speak to is what I experienced and had the privilege to enjoy. So that is why I broke it down the way that I did.

I know it's a very self-centered view however so are many of my opinions, so why should this be any different?

 

[shitsho]

What I don't understand is why Kobe haters undervalue Kobe's role on those title teams.

Because its over valued by Kobe lovers. There is no way in hell Kobe even sniffs a Finals appearance without Shaq, let alone win 3.

Opposing teams didn't simply focus on Shaq in the post. Kobe demanded defensive attention on the perimeter and saw plenty of help defenders when going to the hole.

Shaq was routinely double and triple teamed. Opposing coaches blatantly revealed they were going to let Kobe shoot with one on one coverage. As is the normal defensive reaction of course people are going to help if he gets by his defender.

There are lots of highlights out there of Kobe getting to the paint and dishing it to Shaq for the easy dunk because Shaq's defender helped on Kobe. Kobe was the go to guy a lot of time in crunch time as well (remember the whole hack a Shaq deal). It's funny how hard haters try to marginalize Kobe's career.

This is true but remember highlights are highlights for a reason. Those plays were not the norm. Yes Kobe was the go to player down the stretch because of shaq poor FT shooting if the game was close. Again that was not the norm.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Okay you first state this....


And then this...

Dude you brought team history into the convo.

But to answer your question, yeah for me it kind of does....

Since the Lakers moved to LA (For me, in my lifetime) they have been to the Finals 26 times (That's making it to the Championship Series over 50 percent of the time) and won 12 of those meeting (That's winning it all, again in my lifetime, nearly 25 percent of the time). Over the last 33 years (For me since HS) they have been to the Finals 16 times (That's making it nearly 50 percent of the time) and won 10 of those meetings. (That's winning it all over 30 percent of the time, again in the last 33 years).

No other franchise in any sport has even come close to this type of success, it blows me away and yeah I do think, as a fan, that it is something to be proud of. Now do those Minneapolis Lakers Championships count? Of course they do, they are Lakers accomplishments. Those are the accomplishments of the organization, however for me all I can really speak to is what I experienced and had the privilege to enjoy. So that is why I broke it down the way that I did.

I know it's a very self-centered view however so are many of my opinions, so why should this be any different?

I didn't bring team history to the conversation. I replied to somebody else who did.

My first reaction to the thread was that it was petty. Kobe has been an all time great player over the years and even great players can't win by themselves.

As far as the history and the memories, etc., I'm not at all knocking you for you feeling they are important to you. That type of stuff just isn't that important to me.

 

[lakersrule]

Because its over valued by Kobe lovers. There is no way in hell Kobe even sniffs a Finals appearance without Shaq, let alone win 3.

Pure speculation. A common tactic of Kobe haters to marginalize his career.

Shaq was routinely double and triple teamed. Opposing coaches blatantly revealed they were going to let Kobe shoot with one on one coverage. As is the normal defensive reaction of course people are going to help if he gets by his defender.

No kidding. However, defenses paid plenty of attention to Kobe as well. This is undeniable.

This is true but remember highlights are highlights for a reason. Those plays were not the norm. Yes Kobe was the go to player down the stretch because of shaq poor FT shooting if the game was close. Again that was not the norm.

It was very normal for Kobe to drive to the basket. Keep on marginalizing everything Kobe though. Your biased hate is clear.

 

[trojanfan12]

PJ made a coaching decision by freeing Kobe off Iverson after the defeat. He instead put Tyronne Lue on Iverson. If I recall correctly the Lakers won thanks to Tyronne Lues defense which included holding Iversons jersey, hence he was nicknamed the Glue Lue. The move also freed Kobe offensively. As usual Shaq remained consistent Iin scoring and in defense.

Not really correct!! Phil put Lue on AI in game 2 and AI was held to 23 points. However, AI then torched Lue over the next 3 games scoring 35, 35 and 37 points!!

As for Shaq'a defense, not so much!! Phil had to tell Shaq "not to be afraid to block shots" after he blocked 0 shots in game 1!!

 

[shitsho]

Pure speculation. A common tactic of Kobe haters to marginalize his career.

Of course its speculation. That speculation is backed up by what happened after Shaq left. Kobe was not capable of carrying a team by himself as evidenced post Shaq. He did get better but that coincided with the arrival of Gasol and Bynum. What proof do you have as a Kobe lover that he would have won anything? At least I have history for proof.

No kidding. However, defenses paid plenty of attention to Kobe as well. This is undeniable.

No one denied Kobe was a scorer. He just did not get the attention Shaq got and was actually encouraged to shoot by opposing defenses. Anything to keep the ball out of Shaqs hands. I am simply amazed that the Kobe love has blinded people so much that Shaq will become Kobes Robin in 5-10 years to hear you guys tell it.

It was very normal for Kobe to drive to the basket. Keep on marginalizing everything Kobe though. Your biased hate is clear.

i dont hate Kobe. I just think he was overrated. Replace him with Tracy Mcgrady and you get the same results. Replace Shaq with....... and do you win 3 championships?

 

[Vitamike]

PJ made a coaching decision by freeing Kobe off Iverson after the defeat. He instead put Tyronne Lue on Iverson. If I recall correctly the Lakers won thanks to Tyronne Lues defense which included holding Iversons jersey, hence he was nicknamed the Glue Lue. The move also freed Kobe offensively. As usual Shaq remained consistent Iin scoring and in defense.

While I agree that PJ used Lue on Iverson, Lue played in all 5 games for a total of 73 minutes and Iverson played in all 5 games for 227 minutes.

So basically what you are saying is that this change came after game one where Lue played 22 minutes which leaves just 51 minutes in the remaining 4 games for Lue and 172 minutes for Iverson as he played 52 minutes in Game 1.

So my question is how could Lue be sole responsible for holding AI down defensively in the remaining 4 games since he didn't even touch the court for at least 124 minutes AI played. That would only be 51 minutes of the defensive match-up you attribute the series success to if Lue was on court for every minute that AI logged in those last four games.

In other words it actually could be more than 124 minutes if Lue was even on the court for just 1 minute that AI was sitting. So who covered him in those 124 minutes?

Look Lue helped out and matched up with AI when they were both on the court, no doubt. But the fact remains that for the last four games Lue averaged just under 13 minutes a game. AI on the other hand averaged 43 minutes a game for those same last four games. That leaves Kobe to guard AI for the rest of the 30 minutes per game in those last four.

I'm sure PJ's adjustment was only to give Kobe some relief and leave some additional energy for scoring and working on the offensive side of the ball as Kobe went from scoring 15 points in 52 minutes in Game 1 to scoring an average of 27 points (In about 44 mpg) in the last 4 games.

Kudos to PJ for making this in-series adjustment however it wasn't because Kobe couldn't guard AI, it was because Kobe didn't need to expend all his energy guarding AI the entire game.

 

[trojanfan12]

Because its over valued by Kobe lovers. There is no way in hell Kobe even sniffs a Finals appearance without Shaq, let alone win 3.

So because some Kobe lovers say something stupid and overvalue Kobe, it makes sense for Kobe haters to say something just as stupid to undervalue him?

How many finals did Shaq "sniff" without a top tier 2 guard?


Shaq was routinely double and triple teamed. Opposing coaches blatantly revealed they were going to let Kobe shoot with one on one coverage. As is the normal defensive reaction of course people are going to help if he gets by his defender.

Of course Shaq was double and triple teamed. He's 7 feet tall and weighed over 300 pounds. There was no one who could stay with him 1 on 1, he was too big, strong and heavy. While Kobe benefitted from that, Shaq also benefitted from Kobe's presence as teams had to "pick their poison"!! They couldn't simply have 2 or 3 guys sit in Shaq's lap and let Kobe run wild. It was pretty fun being a Laker fan and watch teams trying to figure out what to do when both players were rolling!!

This is true but remember highlights are highlights for a reason. Those plays were not the norm. Yes Kobe was the go to player down the stretch because of shaq poor FT shooting if the game was close. Again that was not the norm.

Actually, they were more the norm than you care to admit!! As I pointed out above, it was a pick your poison situation with Shaq and Kobe.

 

[shitsho]

So because some Kobe lovers say something stupid and overvalue Kobe, it makes sense for Kobe haters to say something just as stupid to undervalue him?

How many finals did Shaq "sniff" without a top tier 2 guard?

I'm not undervaluing Kobe. I have him in the same category as TMac. Shaq was the reason any of his teams made it to the Finals not the other way around. Are you guys losing your memories or something?

Of course Shaq was double and triple teamed. He's 7 feet tall and weighed over 300 pounds. There was no one who could stay with him 1 on 1, he was too big, strong and heavy. While Kobe benefitted from that, Shaq also benefitted from Kobe's presence as teams had to "pick their poison"!! They couldn't simply have 2 or 3 guys sit in Shaq's lap and let Kobe run wild. It was pretty fun being a Laker fan and watch teams trying to figure out what to do when both players were rolling!!

I agree. Thats one of the reasons I believe Kobe was overrated. It all started with Shaq and not the other way around. Like I asked LakersRule. Do you really think Kobe would have have even gotten to the Finals without Shaq? You guys make me out to be a hater but its pretty clear you guys are in love with a myth. If, as you stated, Shaq was double and triple teamed does that not tell he was the reason Kobe had such a good showing at times?

Actually, they were more the norm than you care to admit!! As I pointed out above, it was a pick your poison situation with Shaq and Kobe.

Not really. It was not the norm. Trust me. I would have loved nothing better than to see good basketball by Kobe. I dont even know how you can argue that after the drama that was documented in books. Phil quit because Kobe shot too much. I'm speaking facts and not wishful thinking yet you guys call me a hater?!

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm not undervaluing Kobe. I have him in the same category as TMac. Shaq was the reason any of his teams made it to the Finals not the other way around. Are you guys losing your memories or something?

If you have him in the saame catgory as T-Mac, you are undervaluing him. And the fact is, Shaq doesn't get to the finals or win any championships with Penny Hardaway, Kobe or D-Wade, just as they don't get there without Shaq. It's a team game and takes more than one great player to win a championship.



I agree. Thats one of the reasons I believe Kobe was overrated. It all started with Shaq and not the other way around. Like I asked LakersRule. Do you really think Kobe would have have even gotten to the Finals without Shaq? You guys make me out to be a hater but its pretty clear you guys are in love with a myth. If, as you stated, Shaq was double and triple teamed does that not tell he was the reason Kobe had such a good showing at times?

It was based on what the defense was giving them at any given time. Early in his career, defenses geared up to stop Shaq. However, by the time Phil came in and the Lakers started winning championships, it was a 1a/1b type situation and not as "Shaq-centric" (which is, in large measure, why they started winning championships).


Not really. It was not the norm. Trust me. I would have loved nothing better than to see good basketball by Kobe. I dont even know how you can argue that after the drama that was documented in books. Phil quit because Kobe shot too much. I'm speaking facts and not wishful thinking yet you guys call me a hater?!

No need to trust you, I watched the games, every single one, with my own eyes. So, I think I'll trust myself. No offense!! As for Phil quitting, it was alot more than Kobe shooting too much. And if he had so many issues re: Kobe, why did he come back and coach him again?

 

[lakersrule]

Of course its speculation. That speculation is backed up by what happened after Shaq left. Kobe was not capable of carrying a team by himself as evidenced post Shaq. He did get better but that coincided with the arrival of Gasol and Bynum. What proof do you have as a Kobe lover that he would have won anything? At least I have history for proof.

I'm not a Kobe lover. I'm a Lakers fan. I rank Shaq higher than Kobe.

He won two titles after Shaq left. Is not that evidence? Whose to say how his career would have turned out if things started differently. The Lakers had to rebuild around Kobe post Shaq. Because he didn't win those first few years is not proof that he wouldn't have won on a different career trajectory. Speculation isn't proof.

No one denied Kobe was a scorer. He just did not get the attention Shaq got and was actually encouraged to shoot by opposing defenses. Anything to keep the ball out of Shaqs hands. I am simply amazed that the Kobe love has blinded people so much that Shaq will become Kobes Robin in 5-10 years to hear you guys tell it.

Again, not a Kobe lover. I'm a Lakers fan. I watched all those games. It wasn't simply double Shaq and let Kobe shoot. Kobe commanded plenty of defensive attention. Kobe haters love revising history.

i dont hate Kobe. I just think he was overrated. Replace him with Tracy Mcgrady and you get the same results. Replace Shaq with....... and do you win 3 championships?

You hate Kobe and attempt to marginalize his career at every opportunity. This is more of your typical speculation in an attempt to marginalize his career.

 

[shitsho]

No need to trust you, I watched the games, every single one, with my own eyes. So, I think I'll trust myself. No offense!! As for Phil quitting, it was alot more than Kobe shooting too much. And if he had so many issues re: Kobe, why did he come back and coach him again?

I meant trust me that i would have loved to see Kobe play good team ball. If I was a hater I would have wished for him to break his neck.

Are you saying that Kobe shooting too much was not a major pain in the ass for Phil and everyone else? Phil clearly stated that Kobe was "uncoachable". Thats a direct reference to him shooting instead of running the play. Phil had many reasons to come back. Kobe was a year wiser having had to eat humble pie after missing the playoffs. Phil also had to prove the naysayers wrong. Those who claimed he always had a stacked squad and was not a good coach. Combine that with his girlfriend being a Laker and its pretty evident why he came back specifically to the Lakers. I bet the money didnt hurt either.

 

[shitsho]

I'm not a Kobe lover. I'm a Lakers fan. I rank Shaq higher than Kobe.

He won two titles after Shaq left. Is not that evidence?

That absolutely is not evidence that he was the overrated during the Shaq days. That just says he got better as most players are supposed to do.

Again, not a Kobe lover. I'm a Lakers fan. I watched all those games. It wasn't simply double Shaq and let Kobe shoot. Kobe commanded plenty of defensive attention. Kobe haters love revising history.

You're being simplistic now. No one gave him open shots. Opposing defenses wanted him shooting specifically so Shaq would not get the ball. Are you saying that was not true? Sounds to me that if you actually watched the games and did not see and hear this done and stated multiple times by opposing defenses then you are the one revising.

You hate Kobe and attempt to marginalize his career at every opportunity. This is more of your typical speculation in an attempt to marginalize his career.

I dont know the guy personally so how is it possible for me to hate him? He has done nothing to me. Its pretty much impossible for me to attempt to marginalize his career. Kobe is going to be an HOFer. I just think he is overrated.

 

[trojanfan12]

I meant trust me that i would have loved to see Kobe play good team ball. If I was a hater I would have wished for him to break his neck.

Are you saying that Kobe shooting too much was not a major pain in the ass for Phil and everyone else? Phil clearly stated that Kobe was "uncoachable". Thats a direct reference to him shooting instead of running the play. Phil had many reasons to come back. Kobe was a year wiser having had to eat humble pie after missing the playoffs. Phil also had to prove the naysayers wrong. Those who claimed he always had a stacked squad and was not a good coach. Combine that with his girlfriend being a Laker and its pretty evident why he came back specifically to the Lakers. I bet the money didnt hurt either.

First off, I haven't referred to you as a Kobe hater and I am certainly no Kobe lover. I support Kobe because he is a Laker and I have been a Laker fan since before he was born.

For much of the 1st 3 championships, Kobe did play good team ball and in fact, Kobe and Shaq played very well together and were one of the most devastating 1-2 punches in league history.

As for Phil leaving and Shaq leaving. Yes, Kobe had something to do with it, but there was far more involved in all of that than simply "Kobe shot too much"!!

Much of the "feud" between Kobe and Shaq had to do with Shaq showing up out of shape every season and Kobe feeling like that wasn't setting much of an example as the supposed "team leader". Also involved was the general dysfunction of the "4 Hall-of-Famer" lineup that the Lakers had in that final season. Bottom line was: there was one basketball and they all wanted it.

The "final straw" re: Shaq actually had nothing to do with Kobe. Shaq was lobbying to renegotiate his contract and the negotiations were getting testy. Then, in a pre-season game, Shaq dunked, glared at Dr. Buss and yelled: "You gonna pay me now"!! It was that disrespect to Dr. Buss that ultimately led to Shaq leaving.

 

[shitsho]

First off, I haven't referred to you as a Kobe hater and I am certainly no Kobe lover. I support Kobe because he is a Laker and I have been a Laker fan since before he was born.

For much of the 1st 3 championships, Kobe did play good team ball and in fact, Kobe and Shaq played very well together and were one of the most devastating 1-2 punches in league history.

As for Phil leaving and Shaq leaving. Yes, Kobe had something to do with it, but there was far more involved in all of that than simply "Kobe shot too much"!!

Much of the "feud" between Kobe and Shaq had to do with Shaq showing up out of shape every season and Kobe feeling like that wasn't setting much of an example as the supposed "team leader". Also involved was the general dysfunction of the "4 Hall-of-Famer" lineup that the Lakers had in that final season. Bottom line was: there was one basketball and they all wanted it.

The "final straw" re: Shaq actually had nothing to do with Kobe. Shaq was lobbying to renegotiate his contract and the negotiations were getting testy. Then, in a pre-season game, Shaq dunked, glared at Dr. Buss and yelled: "You gonna pay me now"!! It was that disrespect to Dr. Buss that ultimately led to Shaq leaving.

I misread your statement. You didnt specifically say I was a hater. There is no doubt that Shaq and Kobe were a great 1-2 punch. They have back to backs which is a testament to how good a team really is. I'm speaking to the notion that somehow Kobe was the man and Shaq lucked up and got to play with him. People who have that opinion overvalue Kobe. It was the other way around and I really don't see how anyone thinks differently that watched basketball.

 

[trojanfan12]

I misread your statement. You didnt specifically say I was a hater. There is no doubt that Shaq and Kobe were a great 1-2 punch. They have back to backs which is a testament to how good a team really is. I'm speaking to the notion that somehow Kobe was the man and Shaq lucked up and got to play with him. People who have that opinion overvalue Kobe. It was the other way around and I really don't see how anyone thinks differently that watched basketball.

Honestly, I think that they both "lucked up" in getting to play together and in getting Phil as their coach!! Shaq and Kobe came to the Lakers in the same off-season. Shaq was a known quantity and established NBA superstar. Kobe was a 17 year old kid coming straight out of high school.

There was no guarantee that Kobe was going to develop into the player that he became. So, it was a bit of luck for Shaq that Jerry West saw something in Kobe and was willing to draft him. It is also a bit lucky for Shaq that Kobe, even at such a young age, was willing to constantly work to try and improve his game so that they could become the 1-2 punch that they ultimately did.

The luck for Kobe is obvious!! Jerry West believed in him and drafted him and he landed on a team with an established superstar. Because of this, he was able to develop his game without the responsibility of being counted on to take over and be "the man" right away!!

 

[shitsho]

Honestly, I think that they both "lucked up" in getting to play together and in getting Phil as their coach!! Shaq and Kobe came to the Lakers in the same off-season. Shaq was a known quantity and established NBA superstar. Kobe was a 17 year old kid coming straight out of high school.

There was no guarantee that Kobe was going to develop into the player that he became. So, it was a bit of luck for Shaq that Jerry West saw something in Kobe and was willing to draft him. It is also a bit lucky for Shaq that Kobe, even at such a young age, was willing to constantly work to try and improve his game so that they could become the 1-2 punch that they ultimately did.

The luck for Kobe is obvious!! Jerry West believed in him and drafted him and he landed on a team with an established superstar. Because of this, he was able to develop his game without the responsibility of being counted on to take over and be "the man" right away!!

I can agree with this all day long.

 

[jayviabay]

First off, I haven't referred to you as a Kobe hater and I am certainly no Kobe lover. I support Kobe because he is a Laker and I have been a Laker fan since before he was born.


.

^^^ This

I dont get why you have to be labeled a hater or a lover? Honestly, kobe's arrogance makes me sick and I am a bigger wade fan. It sucks to here free agents dont want to come to LA because of Kobe's lack of appeal to be a team player. It does not take away from the fact that if you have watched his career, you witnessed some great moments as well as the bad ones. I guess Im a Kobe Lover if I believe he deserves just as much credit as shaq, big shot bob, .4 fisher, gasol and everyone else who played a role in winning those 5 rings