GDT 8/28 1st Place @ Last Place

[MarcoPolo]

I guess the rub here is what constitutes interference with a defenders ability to make a play. The usual application of this rule is in an instance of a runner interfering with a defenders path to a ground ball. It's never applied to receiving throws, for instance, and I can't remember it being applied to tag plays, home plate or otherwise. And by "never applied," I mean not in cases where a runner is in his established line to the bag, and makes no extra effort to interfere, e.g. throwing up a hand, hip checking, and such.


If this is all there is in the rule-book then I don't see anything that specifically outlaws running through a defender on a tag play. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be a rule about this, just to be clear.

"making a play" isn't just fielding a batted ball. If, say, A-Rod hit a ball to the pitcher and was running to first base and the pitcher ran over to tag A-Rod and A-Rod batted the ball out of the glove, that would be interference and A-Rod would be out. {cough, cough - that actually happened, and interference was the call and A-Rod was out}. The same should be true for any defensive player trying to make any play.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Of course, there's also the MLB Umpire's Manual, which I don't have. I bet there's more detail in that.

 

[tzill]

Of course, there's also the MLB Umpire's Manual, which I don't have. I bet there's more detail in that.

I bumped the original thread on this; I think the board covered it pretty well.

 

[gp956]

"making a play" isn't just fielding a batted ball. If, say, A-Rod hit a ball to the pitcher and was running to first base and the pitcher ran over to tag A-Rod and A-Rod batted the ball out of the glove, that would be interference and A-Rod would be out. {cough, cough - that actually happened, and interference was the call and A-Rod was out}. The same should be true for any defensive player trying to make any play.

I already excluded that situation from further consideration - in my first reply to you, in fact. It's up thread if you need to check. Quoted for your convenience here:

Nevertheless, where is the specific rule that a runner can't "take out" a defensive player who has possession of the ball and is in the runners line to the next base? And, here, we should define "take out" as body to body contact without an attempt to swipe the ball out of the glove.

I anticipated your use of that play as a counter-example. The better example is to use the Vina/Belle second base collision. Don't think Belle was automatically called out for that play, but he was fined and suspended for some of the stuff that occurred later in the same game. Of course, even that play is not a good example of a "legal" taking out, because Belle threw an elbow at Vina's face.

 

[gp956]

The Rockies and Marlins of '93 were terrible. I guess we just have ourselves to blame for not running the table against those teams. I still love Dusty, but the Salomon Torres decision still bugs me. Pitch Swift (or was it Burkett?) on 3 days rest. C'mon.

That 8 game losing streak was a killer. Back to back sweeps by the Braves and Cards at home.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I guess the rub here is what constitutes interference with a defenders ability to make a play. The usual application of this rule is in an instance of a runner interfering with a defenders path to a ground ball. It's never applied to receiving throws, for instance, and I can't remember it being applied to tag plays, home plate or otherwise. And by "never applied," I mean not in cases where a runner is in his established line to the bag, and makes no extra effort to interfere, e.g. throwing up a hand, hip checking, and such.


If this is all there is in the rule-book then I don't see anything that specifically outlaws running through a defender on a tag play. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be a rule about this, just to be clear.

Sorry about missing (forgetting) the "swipe" comment.

I would claim that intentionally running into, over, or through a fielder making a play counts as "hinders".

Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play.

 

[gp956]

Sorry about missing (forgetting) the "swipe" comment.

I would claim that intentionally running into, over, or through a fielder making a play counts as "hinders".

Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play.

That doesn't fly with me. I don't think your interpretation reflects the intention of where and how that rule was to be applied. Simply consider the scenario of a base runner running up the firstbase line and a throw that forces the firstbaseman off the bag but onto the line. If we apply your interpretation, the runner has to be automatically out.

 

[MarcoPolo]

But going back to gp's original post :

I'm looking for the specific rule, without having to spend all day reading the rule-book. Marco is usually pretty good at providing that kind of detail. I know there is a rule that specifically disallows a catcher from blocking the plate if he doesn't have the ball, I assume this applies to all bases and all defenders. But I can't find anything that says a defender with the ball can't block the path of the runner while attempting a tag. Further, I don't see anything that says a runner can't run through the defender if they are attempting the tag while also being in the runner's line.

In my own experience playing, I've run through tags when advancing a base and had the ball dropped without an interference call being made by the ump either way. That's why I asked the question - maybe there is a rule, but as Marco states, it's not enforced.

The key here is "blocking the base" (which I somehow missed the first time around). Defenders aren't supposed to block the base (unless they are in the act of "fielding the ball" - which includes catching a thrown ball). And baserunners can't "hinder" a defenseman trying to make a play. But the baseline belongs to the runner, so he has every right to run in the basepath.

I don't think that there is anything specifically called out in the *rules* about it. (There may be something in the umpire's guide.) But if the defender is blocking the base, I think that the runner has every right to run over or through the defender - at any base. Perfect example is a bad throw to 1B where the firstbaseman has to put his arm & mitt into the runner's lane in foul ground. If the runner runs into the defender, he's not guilty of interference (unless he runs out of his lane to do so).

So if the catcher is blocking the plate the runner can bowl through and over him. The baseline belongs to the runner.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Ha! I was typing my reply before seeing yours yours (and I picked almost the exact same example).

 

[MarcoPolo]

You said : If this is all there is in the rule-book then I don't see anything that specifically outlaws running through a defender on a tag play. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be a rule about this, just to be clear.

"Being in the runner's line" IMHO isn't the same thing as "blocking a base". If the thirdbaseman is on the inside corner of 3B taking a throw from the pitcher and the runner alters his path to intentionally run into the defender, the runner should be out (even though the defender has his foot on the base, which is in the basepath, which belongs to the runner). Now if the defender is *blocking* the base by standing directly in front of the bag such that the runner would have to alter his path to avoid the defender, then I think that the runner CAN run over the defender.

I was ignoring issues of "blocking the base" before. So I'd like to change my reply to take it into consideration :

I would claim that intentionally running into, over, or through a fielder making a play who is not blocking the base counts as "hinders".

 

[gp956]

Ha! I was typing my reply before seeing yours yours (and I picked almost the exact same example).

Yep. It would be the scenario most abused by defenders too, if it was ruled runners interference.

 

[gp956]

You said : If this is all there is in the rule-book then I don't see anything that specifically outlaws running through a defender on a tag play. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be a rule about this, just to be clear.

"Being in the runner's line" IMHO isn't the same thing as "blocking a base". If the thirdbaseman is on the inside corner of 3B taking a throw from the pitcher and the runner alters his path to intentionally run into the defender, the runner should be out (even though the defender has his foot on the base, which is in the basepath, which belongs to the runner). Now if the defender is *blocking* the base by standing directly in front of the bag such that the runner would have to alter his path to avoid the defender, then I think that the runner CAN run over the defender.

I was ignoring issues of "blocking the base" before. So I'd like to change my reply to take it into consideration :

I would claim that intentionally running into, over, or through a fielder making a play who is not blocking the base counts as "hinders".

I would agree with this. And I think at every base except home, this is the usual interpretation of the rules. But in the Molina/Harrison play, we're talking about a situation similar to the throw up the firstbase line.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I would agree with this. And I think at every base except home, this is the usual interpretation of the rules. But in the Molina/Harrison play, we're talking about a situation similar to the throw up the firstbase line.

Caveat, I didn't see the play. But, IMHO, if Molina blocked the plate, he got what he deserved.

The player shouldn't block the path to any base, and if he does then "contact" by the runner is OK. As I stated before, IMHO "blocking" a base isn't the same as "standing near the runners baseline". A runner shouldn't be able to change his path to collide with a defender who isn't blocking the base.

Personally, I'd like to see two calls made :
- When a thirdbaseman is blocking the path to third base while receiving the ball *and he doesn't have to*, he should be called for obstruction. One often sees the thirdbaseman with his foot on the inside edge of the bag in the middle to block off the bag when taking a throw from an outfielder (I've even seen a defenseman kneel and use the entire leg to block the front edge of the base and his body to block off almost everything else). Yes, he was waiting for a throw that got there at about the same time as the runner but he purposefully blocked off the bag and didn't need to. (I'm not talking about a dive to catch a throw - he was all set up to block the bag and then did so as soon as the throw got close.) That *should be* (IMHO) obstruction (altho it isn't as the rules stand today). It is an intention blocking of the base that isn't necessary.

- bases are loaded, pitch is hit to an IF who throws home for the force. Catcher has the ball, steps away from the plate towards the mound and first base in order to throw to first and the runner takes him out. I'm not talking about a situation where the runner slides at about the same time as the catcher gets the ball - I'm talking about the runner sliding into the catcher 2-3 seconds after the catch when the catcher has already moved out of the baseline. That should be called interference.

 

[SFAnthem]

I bumped the original thread on this; I think the board covered it pretty well.

Hey you're back!!

Good, we need all hands on deck for the stretch run.

Lemme guess..you just finished serving your 50 game suspension for drinking kids cough syrup?

 

[calsnowskier]

I bumped the original thread on this; I think the board covered it pretty well.

Welcome back

Rep