Game of Thrones

[Tharvot]

With Jamie there, how's he going to do that?

Yeah, Blackfish will be flying (swimming) solo if he does his Houdini act and heads north. The Tully army will largely stick home to protect their castle from the Freys.

Will they be able to rally people around Rickon? Seems weak to me, but he's a guy and has the right last name, both of which seem to be very important.

Doesn't seem like anyone in the north is ready to oppose the Boltons. They will quickly bend the knee if/when Ramsay is disposed of. If Glover is in on the great northern double-cross, he sure did a convincing acting job that he wasn't interested in the last episode.

 

[Superbelt]

With Jamie there, how's he going to do that?

Dunno, but he swam down the river on his own and escaped in the books. If he could do that, I'm thinking he can get a bunch of soldiers out with him in the show.

Not a whole army just marching out, but as they said, he knows the castle and the surrounding area better than any Frey or Lannister there.

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah, I think Clegane on Clegane violence is out of the picture at this point. If the same person from the books is leading the brotherhood as many people hope I can't see him lasting 2 seconds there, so that's probably out of any picture. But he did get along with one person ever And she is coming back to westeros (probably). Plus he had some sort of crush on/strange relationship with Sansa who could use his help. He's afraid of fire so should join team Ice. I see the north in his future.

If the rumored new leader is accurate, I think Hound COULD fit in nice there. After some discussion, of course...

 

[SFGRTB]

I doubt it. Why would Lem do a 180 on why they're doing what they're doing? Their whole shtick is to protect the little guy. Slaughtering a bunch of peasants? What for? The peasants were sheltering them/giving them food.

They recognized the Hound, went back and told their leader, returned to murder everyone, left the Hound so they draw him out and lay a trap for him.

 

[chf]

Will they be able to rally people around Rickon? Seems weak to me, but he's a guy and has the right last name, both of which seem to be very important.

Sure, as male children who aren't bastards, either Bran or Rickon would serve.

 

[chf]

Dunno, but he swam down the river on his own and escaped in the books. If he could do that, I'm thinking he can get a bunch of soldiers out with him in the show.

Not a whole army just marching out, but as they said, he knows the castle and the surrounding area better than any Frey or Lannister there.

An individual can do ( or a tiny group) what a large force can't though. Basically you'd have a bunch (if they could all be quiet enough - each one is at risk of being discovered) of unarmed, unarmored, unhorsed, soldiers without the food and supplies to get them anywhere.

 

[chf]

They recognized the Hound, went back and told their leader, returned to murder everyone, left the Hound so they draw him out and lay a trap for him.

Why murder everyone? That's the very style of engagement they've been fighting AGAINST the whole time. Dondarrion would put Clegane on trial and hang him. Why's he going to murder a bunch of peasants?

 

[SFGRTB]

Why murder everyone? That's the very style of engagement they've been fighting AGAINST the whole time. Dondarrion would put Clegane on trial and hang him. Why's he going to murder a bunch of peasants?

Because it's not Dondarrion. And/or they have become fervent servants to the Lord of Light, and don't mind cutting down followers of the Seven. I think these guys have changed quite a bit since we've last seen them.

 

[juliansteed]

Most of Westeros doesn't believe in the WW's. GRRM repeats the scoffing line, 'What's next, grumpkins and snarks?' everytime someone brings up the walkers.

Even the Northern Houses don't all believe in them. They see the peril beyond the wall as 100% the Wildlings, and with Jon having them on his side, most of the North is going to look on them sceptically.

Exactly. So it would have been easy to have them try that angle and still end up with the same result. I didn't think it made much sense for them to not at least try it as a last resort (can see why they might not have started off with it) since it already worked twice. Of course, they knew full well the Wildlings were believers but it worked on House Mormont when it appeared all hope was lost, so you'd think they'd play that card again.

 

[juliansteed]

I think these guys could be enemies of the Brotherhood and are trying to frame them. Perhaps they were members at one point but are mutineers.

Could this all somehow be part of the High Sparrow's plan to obtain the services of The Hound for a trial by combat? Not exactly sure how that would work but I'm definitely interested in seeing where they go next with this storyline.

If the Hound doesn't fight the Mountain then who will? Loras? All 3 Sand Snakes (could fit the battle of the bastards theme but not sure that would be within the rules)?

 

[calsnowskier]

If Toman is a true believer now, he could be the Seven's champion, which would put Sersie in a total bind...

 

[oaknightshockey1]

If Toman is a true believer now, he could be the Seven's champion, which would put Sersie in a total bind...

Holy crap...this is all a plot by the High Sparrow to assassinate the king. They don't figure out who it is until the Mountain kills him. Cersei gets her innocent verdict, but her son dies. That would be awesome.

 

[calsnowskier]

Holy crap...this is all a plot by the High Sparrow to assassinate the king. They don't figure out who it is until the Mountain kills him. Cersei gets her innocent verdict, but her son dies. That would be awesome.

I was thinking more along the lines of he is announced first, and Cersei then needs to react to the announcement. Not only can she NOT name Gregor, but she needs to out someone in who cannot beat Tohman like the maester.

Your theory works as well, so I would be fine with that also.

 

[beardown07]

 

[chf]

Because it's not Dondarrion.

That would be my guess. And Lem is pretty high up in Dondarrion's crew.

As for them changing, I could see them slaughtering a bunch of soldiers without a trial, but not peasants. Again, that was their whole deal. Their reason for being.

 

[chf]

Exactly. So it would have been easy to have them try that angle and still end up with the same result. I didn't think it made much sense for them to not at least try it as a last resort (can see why they might not have started off with it) since it already worked twice. Of course, they knew full well the Wildlings were believers but it worked on House Mormont when it appeared all hope was lost, so you'd think they'd play that card again.

They go into it in a lot more detail in the books obviously, but the 'North' isn't a bloc by any stretch of the imagination. GRRM goes into exhausting detail about how the Kartarks and the Starks have had their outright emnity periods in the past. And they share a freaking name.

The thing about House Mormont, is that Jorah was the patriarch, so if ANY house knows about the WW's, it's the Mormonts. So what they had to get past with that family is their anger over the death of the Mormont daughters marching with Robb.

That 'card' wasn't going to work with some of the other houses - I don't remember the exact particulars in the books, but in the show he refers to how the Starks weren't there when their holdings were threatened by the Boltons. So they're pissed.

 

[juliansteed]

They go into it in a lot more detail in the books obviously, but the 'North' isn't a bloc by any stretch of the imagination. GRRM goes into exhausting detail about how the Kartarks and the Starks have had their outright emnity periods in the past. And they share a freaking name.

The thing about House Mormont, is that Jorah was the patriarch, so if ANY house knows about the WW's, it's the Mormonts. So what they had to get past with that family is their anger over the death of the Mormont daughters marching with Robb.

That 'card' wasn't going to work with some of the other houses - I don't remember the exact particulars in the books, but in the show he refers to how the Starks weren't there when their holdings were threatened by the Boltons. So they're pissed.

Whether it ultimately would have worked or not isn't really the point. It was inconsistent and silly for them not to have at least tried when all else was failing after it worked for them in the past.

 

[chf]

Whether it ultimately would have worked or not isn't really the point. It was inconsistent and silly for them not to have at least tried when all else was failing after it worked for them in the past.

Your second point doesn't support your first point. The attempt is made because you are trying to be successful. You're trying to achieve an end.

You're not trying to meet some cosmic scorecard for consistency.

Depending on your audience in Westeros, mentioning WW's is going to get you mocked, laughed at, or actually HURT your attempts to achieve an end.

The dramatic tension of these parts of the show (and I'm sure the books eventually) is because we as the audience (readers) know stuff that the characters don't. We KNOW that the walkers exist, we know that the Night King exists. More than that, we know what they want.

All the petty striving lords of the realm don't know what we know, and thus their stupidity galls.

We know that the real threat is the WW's. They think that the Wildlings, or which kings sits the iron throne is the real threat.

Thus dramatic tension.

 

[chf]

And reading that post back, it comes off as pretty fucking condescending. Wasn't my intent.

I just disagree with you. From a storytelling perspective, the factions NOT getting in line with Jon makes logical sense AND adds to the stakes of the eventual rising action and climax to come.

 

[juliansteed]

Your second point doesn't support your first point. The attempt is made because you are trying to be successful. You're trying to achieve an end.

You're not trying to meet some cosmic scorecard for consistency.

Depending on your audience in Westeros, mentioning WW's is going to get you mocked, laughed at, or actually HURT your attempts to achieve an end.

The dramatic tension of these parts of the show (and I'm sure the books eventually) is because we as the audience (readers) know stuff that the characters don't. We KNOW that the walkers exist, we know that the Night King exists. More than that, we know what they want.

All the petty striving lords of the realm don't know what we know, and thus their stupidity galls.

We know that the real threat is the WW's. They think that the Wildlings, or which kings sits the iron throne is the real threat.

Thus dramatic tension.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't matter to the characters whether or not their attempt is successful. Of course it does. My point is that they don't know if it will work or not unless they try. So after trying twice and succeeding, I just found it odd that they wouldn't try a 3rd time when all else was failing. As I previously stated, I can understand why they might not have led off with it.

I don't recall anywhere in the books where any of that trio gained knowledge as to exactly which lords believed in WWs and which didn't. Perhaps it's in there, but even if it is it's only semi-relevant as the show is very different, especially when it comes to minor characters like the Glovers. And it could have added to the dramatic tension and would have been the perfect opportunity to demonstrate all that you have been saying, had they made that attempt and been denied.