Game of Thrones

[Superbelt]

IMHO that premise is wrong given the nature of the AOD so it skews the rest of your analysis. Start with the objective and work backwards. The objective is to kill the NK because that is the only known way to destroy the AOD. The NK's objective is to kill Bran and the rest of the living.

The chosen strategy then is to lure the NK into the open. Jamie already noted that the NK will then not expose himself and Bran corrected him. He knows from history under what conditions that will happen. They are not defending the castle as much as defending Bran. They know that the castle walls will be breached for this to happen.

Going into the battle Jon/Dany had three options to kill the NK. Keep in mind that nothing short of killing the NK would win the battle. Nothing. Battlefield delaying actions in and of themselves were useless away from the castle so they:
1. Used dragons to protect ground forces while trying to kill the NK with dragon fire or in a dragon battle.
2. Used the Dothraki to charge hoping for a WW kill that would open a path to the NK.
3. Kept the forces close to delay the AOD only when it mattered. To do this, the Unsullied staged an orderly retreat with a rear guard in a Dunkirk fashion. The trench was a temporary measure because the AOD could have waited until the fuel was exhausted without changing the outcome. When the AOD got to the trench is when the only delaying actions matter to the strategy.

Then they should have just sent the majority of the Dothraki south to the Riverlands to wait until after the battle.

And it would have had no effect on the timeline of the breaching of the gates, either.

 

[Money]

You know what was so great about the Dothraki charge strategy???




It was an awesome scene to watch.

 

[batchaps4me]

Then they should have just sent the majority of the Dothraki south to the Riverlands to wait until after the battle.

And it would have had no effect on the timeline of the breaching of the gates, either.

I though of that but two things:
1. would the Dothraki run from the fight?
2. They would have been easy pickings for the NK and dragon. Jon and Dany would have at least weakened their position by sending a dragon to cover them for the march otherwise the NK alone kills them all.
3. If they are going to die either way, or the risk too great to relocate them south how is flanking going to accomplish the objective of killing the NK? At least with a frontal, they have some small chance of getting a WW and exposing the NK.

 

[ill]

A calvary charge AFTER the enemy is engaged in close combat battle with infantry troops? That's ridiculous! It would never work.


Can't blame Jon for never thinking of it. He's never seen that tactic work.

Sansa definitely has the war strategy chops that Rob had.

 

[batchaps4me]

You know what was so great about the Dothraki charge strategy???




It was an awesome scene to watch.

And the fact that there a few of us arguing battle strategies against the AOD at Winterfell says something about either those that bitch about the showrunners or a few like me. My apologies to those that are like me, someone pissed in my gene pool.

 

[anotheridiot]

And the fact that there a few of us arguing battle strategies against the AOD at Winterfell says something about either those that bitch about the showrunners or a few like me. My apologies to those that are like me, someone pissed in my gene pool.

They had the massive crossbows on the front of their boats. Somehow they targeted and killed a dragon. If you are talking about strategies, all she had to do was fly behind them and burn their ships instead of fly away. She definitely would have gotten there before they were able to turn around. She needed Cersei to do the first vial act of the war to get the rest behind her. I understand there are probably the dragon killing crossbows all around the city, but she could have easily torched those boats.

 

[batchaps4me]

They had the massive crossbows on the front of their boats. Somehow they targeted and killed a dragon. If you are talking about strategies, all she had to do was fly behind them and burn their ships instead of fly away. She definitely would have gotten there before they were able to turn around. She needed Cersei to do the first vial act of the war to get the rest behind her. I understand there are probably the dragon killing crossbows all around the city, but she could have easily torched those boats.

Different battle. I agree with you here.

 

[Proud_Okie]

They didn't have enough time to build multiple trenches.

While they have people who understand fighting, they really didn't have anyone who understands advanced military strategies. And the Dothraki probably demanded to fight their way.

They had time to forge thousands of dragon glass weapons, Jamie had time to get to Winterfell from King's Landing, Edd and Tormund had time to get down from the Wall...

 

[Inquisitor95]

They had time to forge thousands of dragon glass weapons, Jamie had time to get to Winterfell from King's Landing, Edd and Tormund had time to get down from the Wall...

They knew they needed to make dragon glass weapons for some time.

They knew they needed to make a stand at Winterfell.

But they didn't know how to conceive a comprehensive battle plan against the undead. And what few ideas they came up with were too late to implement the way they should have been implemented.

 

[PatsFan2003]

I though of that but two things:
1. would the Dothraki run from the fight?
2. They would have been easy pickings for the NK and dragon. Jon and Dany would have at least weakened their position by sending a dragon to cover them for the march otherwise the NK alone kills them all.
3. If they are going to die either way, or the risk too great to relocate them south how is flanking going to accomplish the objective of killing the NK? At least with a frontal, they have some small chance of getting a WW and exposing the NK.

Their charge ran into 100,000 or so wrights running right into them and the Dothraki charge was stopped dead by a greater force of dead

However if the wright army was attacking someone else or bogged down in barriers and the Dothraki attacked the flanks of the undead army the force of the 30+ thousand Dothraki charging would have been uncontested and so much more effective.

Like the flank attack of the Vale cavalry attacking the flanks of Bolton's wall of spears... (who was attacking Jon Snow's army).

The Dothraki would have likely still been wiped out but they would have caused much more damage.


Still. A great scene.

 

[rsw626]

They knew they needed to make dragon glass weapons for some time.

They knew they needed to make a stand at Winterfell.

But they didn't know how to conceive a comprehensive battle plan against the undead. And what few ideas they came up with were too late to implement the way they should have been implemented.

Stannis would've had time.

 

[batchaps4me]

Their charge ran into 100,000 or so wrights running right into them and the Dothraki charge was stopped dead by a greater force of dead

However if the wright army was attacking someone else or bogged down in barriers and the Dothraki attacked the flanks of the undead army the force of the 30+ thousand Dothraki charging would have been uncontested and so much more effective.

Like the flank attack of the Vale cavalry against Bolton's wall of spears... (attacking Jon Snow's army).

The Dothraki would have likely still been wiped out but they would have caused much more damage.


Still. A great scene.

How would that cavalry charge turned out if Bolton could have raised everyone that died into his army? In the Battle of the Bastards the number of people killed had an effect on the outcome. That is simply not the case at Winterfell. Killing 150,000 AOD would accomplish nothing unless the NK was one of them. They would just be resurrected and at best for the living would be trading out Dothraki and horses to the NK at his loss of soldiers.

 

[Proud_Okie]

They knew they needed to make dragon glass weapons for some time.

They knew they needed to make a stand at Winterfell.

But they didn't know how to conceive a comprehensive battle plan against the undead. And what few ideas they came up with were too late to implement the way they should have been implemented.

They had enough people that had already fought against the dead on a smaller scale to plan a little better.

 

[Superbelt]

How would that cavalry charge turned out if Bolton could have raised everyone that died into his army? In the Battle of the Bastards the number of people killed had an effect on the outcome. That is simply not the case at Winterfell. Killing 150,000 AOD would accomplish nothing unless the NK was one of them. They would just be resurrected and at best for the living would be trading out Dothraki and horses to the NK at his loss of soldiers.

Again, the NK could do that anyway.

The way it happened, they just handed him all those new soldiers earlier in the battle, rather than later.

Still, he didn't bother to raise them up until the very end.

 

[PatsFan2003]

How would that cavalry charge turned out if Bolton could have raised everyone that died into his army? In the Battle of the Bastards the number of people killed had an effect on the outcome. That is simply not the case at Winterfell. Killing 150,000 AOD would accomplish nothing unless the NK was one of them. They would just be resurrected and at best for the living would be trading out Dothraki and horses to the NK at his loss of soldiers.

Good question. Can you raise an undead twice? I could see raising the Dothraki dead but just them. Certainly I am not an expert on the Undead!

That would have been bad enough.

Let's give some credit to the living. They probably killed 5-10 undead for each human killed.

More if you were one of the hero types like Brienne or Jon Snow.

 

[ukfanfrombirth(cali cat)]

Some thoughts about the last episode:

Loved Sansa putting the Stark pin on Theon's corpse. Neither of them have been my favorite characters, far from it, so I was surprised that moment got me.

I wasn't too big on Jaime and Brienne getting together, but I like the idea someone suggested of her being pregnant and the kid continuing the Lannister line.

I'm glad we finally got a brief Hound/Sansa scene. Speaking of the Hound, I love that he and Arya are riding together, again, but there won't be time to really enjoy the Arya/Hound road show. I'm also not big on both of them saying they have no intention of coming back. I'd guess at least one, if not both of them, will die.

This is nitpicky, but the Prince of Dorne line bothered me. I don't think there are any male Martells left, but there are other Sand Snakes, at least one of whom was named in the show. It would have been better, I think, to say something like Elia Sand is ruling Dorne, or something like that.

 

[flyerhawk]

Again, the NK could do that anyway.

The way it happened, they just handed him all those new soldiers earlier in the battle, rather than later.

Still, he didn't bother to raise them up until the very end.

If the Winterfell defenders followed Von Clausewitz to the T, how does the outcome change?

I think people look for too many irrelevant nitpicks. The show runners could have shown a vastly less interesting fight that would have been better tactics to achieve the same end result. But showing the Dothraki light literally being snuffed out was great television. Having them all die penned up inside the castle walls would have been very boring television.

If Martin ever decides to finish the series he will be able to do a lot more because the written word allows far more room to create the environment than a TV show.

 

[Mannyrules]

I wasn't too big on Jaime and Brienne getting together

FUCK THAT! Poor Tormund is heart broken. A few episodes ago when he whipped his head around and said "Is the big woman still here?" is probably the hardest I've ever laughed at GoT. If they aren't together at the end it's a damn shame.

 

[ukfanfrombirth(cali cat)]

FUCK THAT! Poor Tormund is heart broken. A few episodes ago when he whipped his head around and said "Is the big woman still here?" is probably the hardest I've ever laughed at GoT. If they aren't together at the end it's a damn shame.

Yeah, I was switching between thinking, "aw, poor Tormund," and laughing.
Tormund's thing for Breinne has always made me laugh.

 

[Superbelt]

If the Winterfell defenders followed Von Clausewitz to the T, how does the outcome change?

I think people look for too many irrelevant nitpicks. The show runners could have shown a vastly less interesting fight that would have been better tactics to achieve the same end result. But showing the Dothraki light literally being snuffed out was great television. Having them all die penned up inside the castle walls would have been very boring television.

If Martin ever decides to finish the series he will be able to do a lot more because the written word allows far more room to create the environment than a TV show.

I acknowledge that it looked cool.

But after watching them do that, I'm thinking "What the fuck did they just do, that maneuver was asinine." It has to look cool and make some sense.

I think we could have gotten some good scenes of the Dothraki buzzing the flanks of the undead army.