Game of Thrones

[Superbelt]

AND



Keep in mind that she told Grey Worm that hers was a peaceful people incapable of defending themselves. They choose no violence.



IMHO everyone is missing the boat with the strategy and tactics of the Battle of Winterfell. Everyone bitching about the cavalry charge are forgetting that this is not a set piece battle wherein the living can prevail on the battle field. The battle is just a delaying action by the living trying to hold off the AOD long enough for the Night King to expose himself. Keeping that in mind along with the sheer numbers of the AOD, look at the pieces and tactical choices:
1. Dothraki Riders- There is not going to be an opportunity of a flanking attack so the choices are a bit limited here. do you hold them close to the castle and negate their greatest skills, a charge? Range them out as your first level of defense. Nobody in charge believes that this will be successful as far as defeating the AOD, but it starts the battle away from the castle.
2. Unsullied- set in place to protect the Dothraki retreat, if they survive, and provide the second layer of defense. The vanguard protects the retreat of the Dothraki and most of the Unsullied while the trench is lit. This gives added layers of defense … unsullied, trench then Unsullied/Dothraki again.
3. Trebuchets- Yes, you would like to see them have longer barrages as the AOD approaches but for one we do not know how much shot they were able to produce in the buildup. Building/keeping them in the castle would be counter productive … they take up too much space that can be better used for castle defense.

Keeping in mind that Jon/Dany knows that they cannot defeat the AOD in battle, and that is never disputed by anyone, their only option is to delay long enough for the NK to expose himself. Their strategy was to delay long enough to have the NK … the AOD's only weakness ... expose himself to have a chance to win the war, their tactics matched the strategy.

They couldn't have won the battle straight up, but those Dothraki didn't do much of anything to delay the Army of the Dead. And it resulted in massive losses.

It would have been an actual delaying strategy to split them into two groups on the flank to hit and run. They would have drawn strength of the army away from the fight against the castle itself. And they would have been a lot safer and more effective outside where they would have had a speed advantage to snipe the edges, rather than a frontal assault on a tidal wave of bodies.

 

[batchaps4me]

They couldn't have won the battle straight up, but those Dothraki didn't do much of anything to delay the Army of the Dead. And it resulted in massive losses. It would have been an actual delaying strategy to split them into two groups on the flank to hit and run. They would have drawn strength of the army away from the fight against the castle itself. And they would have been a lot safer and more effective outside where they would have had a speed advantage to snipe the edges, rather than a frontal assault on a tidal wave of bodies.

The massive losses by the Dothraki was a given no matter where the engagement was to happen. Hold them in closer would accomplish nothing and trying a flanking maneuver would have removed them from the battlefield entirely rendering them useless. This way at least if the WWs are close enough to the front a lucky kill could clear a path to the NK. Were the Dothraki's use to have any chance to win the war without massive casualties at the castle, this is it. ​

 

[Superbelt]

The massive losses by the Dothraki was a given no matter where the engagement was to happen. Hold them in closer would accomplish nothing and trying a flanking maneuver would have removed them from the battlefield entirely rendering them useless. This way at least if the WWs are close enough to the front a lucky kill could clear a path to the NK. Were the Dothraki's use to have any chance to win the war without massive casualties at the castle, this is it. ​

I don't understand how using them flanking would have removed them from the battlefield.

They were faster on horseback than running wights. They could have actually sustained a battle, rather than suicide run for just about nothing.

The way it happened, they weren't there to help the Unsullied anyway. Would have helped more if they could have been there, drawing some attention.

 

[batchaps4me]

I don't understand how using them flanking would have removed them from the battlefield.

They were faster on horseback than running wights. They could have actually sustained a battle, rather than suicide run for just about nothing.

The way it happened, they weren't there to help the Unsullied anyway. Would have helped more if they could have been there, drawing some attention.

We will have to make and reject a couple of reasonable assumptions and evaluate:
1. Both Bran and the NK will know in advance any deployment of the other's forces. Both can at least warg to accomplish this.
A. If this is true, you are forcing a battle on the flanks, away from the castle. The NK counters, kills the Dothraki and reanimates them into the AOD in what is essentially a separate battle then attacks the castle with Dothraki as well.
B. If not true, the element of surprise is achieved and the Dothraki fight a hit and run battle. Every time they run, NK reanimates the Dothraki and strengthens his forces. Eventually all of the Dothraki are under the NK control but this is away from the castle which is not the battle strategy.

The battle strategy is to take a Hail Mary shot using the strongest part of the army and defend the castle long enough for the NK to expose himself. They delay they need is not on the approach to the castle before the NK exposes himself but between the time the AOD reaches the castle and gets to the 3ER. Flanking them is not a tactic that supports the strategy.

 

[Superbelt]

We will have to make and reject a couple of reasonable assumptions and evaluate:
1. Both Bran and the NK will know in advance any deployment of the other's forces. Both can at least warg to accomplish this.
A. If this is true, you are forcing a battle on the flanks, away from the castle. The NK counters, kills the Dothraki and reanimates them into the AOD in what is essentially a separate battle then attacks the castle with Dothraki as well.
B. If not true, the element of surprise is achieved and the Dothraki fight a hit and run battle. Every time they run, NK reanimates the Dothraki and strengthens his forces. Eventually all of the Dothraki are under the NK control but this is away from the castle which is not the battle strategy.

The battle strategy is to take a Hail Mary shot using the strongest part of the army and defend the castle long enough for the NK to expose himself. They delay they need is not on the approach to the castle before the NK exposes himself but between the time the AOD reaches the castle and gets to the 3ER. Flanking them is not a tactic that supports the strategy.

He could have done that anyway as soon as the Dothraki charge failed in the way it happened, in the first few seconds of the battle. Jon and Dany and the others should have expected that to happen. Free delivery of new foot-soldiers.

You aren't thinking logically here. There was no advantage to a straight charge of cavalry to open the battle compared to holding them for flanking. I think you're just trying to shoehorn in an explanation for why you think that plan was right.

Saving the Dothraki for hit-and-run flanking attacks would have delayed the AotD longer than the 15 seconds they lasted to open the battle.

 

[batchaps4me]

He could have done that anyway as soon as the Dothraki charge failed in the way it happened, in the first few seconds of the battle. Jon and Dany and the others should have expected that to happen. Free delivery of new foot-soldiers.

But it allowed some to survive and have an orderly retreat. They took a shot at ending the battle before it got started without jeopardizing the overall strategy. Using the Dothraki in any other manner would have been equally as useless and taken all of them from the objective. The NK and AOD could have delayed the battle for another week and not affected the outcome.

You aren't thinking logically here. There was no advantage to a straight charge of cavalry to open the battle compared to holding them for flanking. I think you're just trying to shoehorn in an explanation for why you think that plan was right.

I respectfully disagree with you here. The battle that mattered did not start until the AOD reached or breached the walls. The NK was not going to expose himself before then so unless a Hail Mary charge stopped him, slowing him down before he exposed himself was futile. They had to delay only after the NK exposed himself.

BTW I am not saying that Jon/Dany used the best strategy or tactics just that they are plausible and line up with the strategy they chose. At least most of the Dothraki were going to die no matter what. In all honesty putting some in the castle sans horses to delay the battle at the appropriate time and taking a hail Mary with the rest was as good a strategy as possible.

 

[DarthVedder]

They are supposed to defend a castle, their goal should be to try and hold the defensive lines for as long as possible, minimizing the number of casualties. You don't ride out and pointlessly sacrifice your cavalry when you are defending a territory. Even if the Dothraki's best asset is their mobility, you have to use that mobility as a part of your defensive strategy, to flank whatever forces that manage to pass your first line of defense.

In their strategy, they:

1. Sacrificed their cavalry in a pointless charge with minimal chances of success.
2. They stationed their infantry in front of their first physical barrier, basically sacrificing them after the charge failed.
3. They stationed the trebuchets in front of their first physical barrier, ensuring that they would be overran immediately with the first wave of attackers.

The physical barriers should be the first lines of defense. They should have had several lines of trenches, and station their cavalry and infantry behind those trenches.

 

[Sparhawk]

But it allowed some to survive and have an orderly retreat. They took a shot at ending the battle before it got started without jeopardizing the overall strategy. Using the Dothraki in any other manner would have been equally as useless and taken all of them from the objective. The NK and AOD could have delayed the battle for another week and not affected the outcome.

Say what? The advantage the Dothraki had was being on horseback and if used in a flanking position could have run roughshod over a bunch of light skellies. As it was, the skellies advantage was swarming the Dothraki. Total missed opportunity by the North. Let the AOD travel through several volleys of catapult fire, then have the Unsullied meet them from a defensive point of strength. Then the Dothraki ride full charge from both flanking positions. Yes, they still would have died, but it would have slowed the AOD and wound up in the same place regardless. Whether they died 200 yards out or right at the gates, it really doesn't matter because they can cover that ground in no time once they are dead.

The North needed to slow down the AOD as much as possible so that the NK would become impatient and come for Bran sooner, rather than later. I mean, if we really want to think about it, why in the world would the NK be doing anything other than playing hide and seek with Jon/Dany and keeping their dragons away from lighting up the AOD? The NK should have been nowhere near Bran until all were killed. It doesn't matter if he was overconfident or whatever, it was just the writers being lazy and thinking of cool visuals to waste fighters and get this over with, strategies be damned.

 

[Sparhawk]

They are supposed to defend a castle, their goal should be to try and hold the defensive lines for as long as possible, minimizing the number of casualties. You don't ride out and pointlessly sacrifice your cavalry when you are defending a territory. Even if the Dothraki's best asset is their mobility, you have to use that mobility as a part of your defensive strategy, to flank whatever forces that manage to pass your first line of defense.

In their strategy, they:

1. Sacrificed their cavalry in a pointless charge with minimal chances of success.
2. They stationed their infantry in front of their first physical barrier, basically sacrificing them after the charge failed.
3. They stationed the trebuchets in front of their first physical barrier, ensuring that they would be overran immediately with the first wave of attackers.

The physical barriers should be the first lines of defense. They should have had several lines of trenches, and station their cavalry and infantry behind those trenches.

To be fair, those trebuchets are useless once the AOD hit the walls or get inside their shooting range.
Unless they can shoot straight up, at which point it's pot luck on where the fire lands....

 

[DarthVedder]

To be fair, those trebuchets are useless once the AOD hit the walls or get inside their shooting range.
Unless they can shoot straight up, at which point it's pot luck on where the fire lands....

The trebuchets should have been stationed right next to the walls or at the sides of the castle, and used to rain as many volleys as possible at the mass of wights stopped by the first line of trenches, which should have been dug far from the walls.

What is the point of physical barriers if they aren't going to protect your troops. Stationing the unsullied in front of the only trench was as stupid as sending the dothraki to their death on a pointless charge.

 

[PatsFan2003]

The trebuchets should have been stationed right next to the walls or at the sides of the castle, and used to rain as many volleys as possible at the mass of wights stopped by the first line of trenches, which should have been dug far from the walls.

What is the point of physical barriers if they aren't going to protect your troops. Stationing the unsullied in front of the only trench was as stupid as sending the dothraki to their death on a pointless charge.

OR to soften up the wrights before the dothraki charge

 

[Proud_Okie]

The trebuchets should have been stationed right next to the walls or at the sides of the castle, and used to rain as many volleys as possible at the mass of wights stopped by the first line of trenches, which should have been dug far from the walls.

What is the point of physical barriers if they aren't going to protect your troops. Stationing the unsullied in front of the only trench was as stupid as sending the dothraki to their death on a pointless charge.

And why not dig multiple, wider trenches?

 

[PatsFan2003]

And why not dig multiple, wider trenches?

No kidding. They could have caused great damage to the army of the dead before committing a single soldier.

 

[Superbelt]

A calvary charge AFTER the enemy is engaged in close combat battle with infantry troops? That's ridiculous! It would never work.


Can't blame Jon for never thinking of it. He's never seen that tactic work.

 

[Sparhawk]

A calvary charge AFTER the enemy is engaged in close combat battle with infantry troops? That's ridiculous! It would never work.


Can't blame Jon for never thinking of it. He's never seen that tactic work.

To be fair, the Dothraki horses don't have the armor that the Vale horses have.
But, they still would have done damage riding over lightweight skellies.
Which reminds me, where was the Vale horse cavalry when the Dothraki attacked?

 

[Superbelt]

OR to soften up the wrights before the dothraki charge

Trebuchet's are for siege warfare. Super slow to reload, really long range, no short range. They were bigger and harder to build than catapults.

Catapults would have been more useful against an infantry charge of the dead. Could build more, they reload faster, shorter range, so they could have been used longer. And they would have fit behind the defensive trench. They would have been nice weapons filled with flaming pitch covered shards of dragonglass.

 

[Inquisitor95]

They didn't have enough time to build multiple trenches.

While they have people who understand fighting, they really didn't have anyone who understands advanced military strategies. And the Dothraki probably demanded to fight their way.

 

[Superbelt]

Also, everyone should have had a dragonglass piercing on their body.

Jon saw the NK raise dead before. It's pretty basic that you need to plan for your own dead not becoming the next army you have to fight. And they had the solution.

 

[batchaps4me]

They are supposed to defend a castle, their goal should be to try and hold the defensive lines for as long as possible, minimizing the number of casualties. You don't ride out and pointlessly sacrifice your cavalry when you are defending a territory. Even if the Dothraki's best asset is their mobility, you have to use that mobility as a part of your defensive strategy, to flank whatever forces that manage to pass your first line of defense.

IMHO that premise is wrong given the nature of the AOD so it skews the rest of your analysis. Start with the objective and work backwards. The objective is to kill the NK because that is the only known way to destroy the AOD. The NK's objective is to kill Bran and the rest of the living.

The chosen strategy then is to lure the NK into the open. Jamie already noted that the NK will then not expose himself and Bran corrected him. He knows from history under what conditions that will happen. They are not defending the castle as much as defending Bran. They know that the castle walls will be breached for this to happen.

Going into the battle Jon/Dany had three options to kill the NK. Keep in mind that nothing short of killing the NK would win the battle. Nothing. Battlefield delaying actions in and of themselves were useless away from the castle so they:
1. Used dragons to protect ground forces while trying to kill the NK with dragon fire or in a dragon battle.
2. Used the Dothraki to charge hoping for a WW kill that would open a path to the NK.
3. Kept the forces close to delay the AOD only when it mattered. To do this, the Unsullied staged an orderly retreat with a rear guard in a Dunkirk fashion. The trench was a temporary measure because the AOD could have waited until the fuel was exhausted without changing the outcome. When the AOD got to the trench is when the only delaying actions matter to the strategy.

 

[Superbelt]

They didn't have enough time to build multiple trenches.

While they have people who understand fighting, they really didn't have anyone who understands advanced military strategies. And the Dothraki probably demanded to fight their way.

Flanking attacks would still have been their way. Open field charge. I doubt they would have fought against a strategy of hit and run after the initial engagement, rather than a suicide charge into a sea of bodies.