Game Thread: Game 39 - Philadelphia Flyers at New Jersey Devils(1-3-15): 7:00pm EST

[wbon22]

Issue: The organization "collected" centers and frankly didn't think about how to use them.
Issue: The organization "collected" character players who may be characters but don't play with it.
Issue: The organization has NOT "collected" wingers who are legitimately top 9 NHL players.

Read is a legitimate 3rd line winer who can be slotted in an emergency. Simmonds is a typical 2nd line winger who can get hot and look awesome and get cold and look like crap. They are the 2 best real wings on this team after Jake. Raffl is still a mystery, Brayden Schenn....well...., That is a horrible job assembling talent by position. That is simply not excusable. Zack Rinaldo getting 10-12 minutes a night in the NHL is a clear statement to how bad the organization is on the wings.

 

[awaz]

I'd still keep schenn and couturier. And Simmonds. Obviously G and Jake. It is patience, that's exactly what needs to be had. 6 months of struggle doesn't mean you've been patient enough. That's how you end up with jvr for schenn, or sharp for nothing.

Yes they suck this year. And yes they will probably suck next year. But sometimes you have to live through that and assemble pieces like the defensive core of prospects the flyers have. A couple more good drafts in 2015 and 2016 you get offensive pieces to pair with Laughton, leier, and maybe lindlom if he continues to develop and in 2017 or 2018 you've got a young team with loads of depth and talent to pair with veterans like G and Voracek, plus the developed couturier and schenn That's how every team that has won the cup recently has done it.

Patience.

 

[raptorlife4]

I remember saying Briere JVR etc was going to kill our depth

This team simply sucks

Now it has the potential to be retooled

Thoses suggesting trading Simmer are smoking crack

Right now we need to #tankforMcDavid

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'd still keep schenn and couturier. And Simmonds. Obviously G and Jake. It is patience, that's exactly what needs to be had. 6 months of struggle doesn't mean you've been patient enough. That's how you end up with jvr for schenn, or sharp for nothing.

Yes they suck this year. And yes they will probably suck next year. But sometimes you have to live through that and assemble pieces like the defensive core of prospects the flyers have. A couple more good drafts in 2015 and 2016 you get offensive pieces to pair with Laughton, leier, and maybe lindlom if he continues to develop and in 2017 or 2018 you've got a young team with loads of depth and talent to pair with veterans like G and Voracek, plus the developed couturier and schenn That's how every team that has won the cup recently has done it.

Patience.

At least Hexy is the GM now so if they make a trade, I don't expect the Flyers to get fucked in the ass like they did when Homer was here - that's why I'm more willing to see them make a deal now because if Hexy does it, then I know there's something there

They have tough decisions at some point with guys like Brayden Schenn - do you give him a long term extension or do you eventually move him? What is he really going to be? Are you going to keep judging him on what his "potential" will be? At some point, maybe he is what he is, a guy who can get hot for a period time but overall is not a guy that you want to count on night after night?

What concerns me about some of the forwards is that they're not good enough defensively - there's not a consistent level of defensive play from the forwards, and whether that is a fault of the coach or just that players don't have the smarts in that category, it's a problem - the defensemen aren't very good but I sense that the forwards aren't much help defensively either - maybe that starts with the coach(who needs to be replaced) and bring in a defensive coach that will instill a different type of system

It's unfortunate that they had a Lavi-burnout because overall, I think his system is really good in that you initiate and force teams to make mistakes - he had a stamp on his teams and when it worked, boy, it was awesome - there's zero stamp to Chief's system imo and that's a problem

 

[wbon22]

At least Hexy is the GM now so if they make a trade, I don't expect the Flyers to get fucked in the ass like they did when Homer was here - that's why I'm more willing to see them make a deal now because if Hexy does it, then I know there's something there

They have tough decisions at some point with guys like Brayden Schenn - do you give him a long term extension or do you eventually move him? What is he really going to be? Are you going to keep judging him on what his "potential" will be? At some point, maybe he is what he is, a guy who can get hot for a period time but overall is not a guy that you want to count on night after night?

What concerns me about some of the forwards is that they're not good enough defensively - there's not a consistent level of defensive play from the forwards, and whether that is a fault of the coach or just that players don't have the smarts in that category, it's a problem - the defensemen aren't very good but I sense that the forwards aren't much help defensively either - maybe that starts with the coach(who needs to be replaced) and bring in a defensive coach that will instill a different type of system

It's unfortunate that they had a Lavi-burnout because overall, I think his system is really good in that you initiate and force teams to make mistakes - he had a stamp on his teams and when it worked, boy, it was awesome - there's zero stamp to Chief's system imo and that's a problem

I don't know that you can say that there has been a real system since Hitch, or Stevens.
Lavi's system....two deep mid point forecheck pressure and off wing entry with speed....well...sometimes....this isn't so much a system as a philosophy. You can play that way and still play a center lock, left wing lock, double wing lock....it is all about skating.
Lavi never had the blueline skating that his way of thinking relies on. He lost the faith of the front office by butchering his use of Bob and forcing Homer's hand into signing Bryz.

As for Berube...he looks completely at sea. It isn't that he has lost the core of the team, or the room, I don't think he has an answer. He keeps pulling at straws but all he really is doing is running a 2-1-2 center lock. This is peewee hockey 101. The lack of execution in the PK, (see my post from earlier), the lack of cohesion in how to play within this simple system....again, that is both the coach and the staff and how everything is laid out. I don't see anyone on this staff being around too much longer....

 

[Cobiemonster]

I don't know that you can say that there has been a real system since Hitch, or Stevens.
Lavi's system....two deep mid point forecheck pressure and off wing entry with speed....well...sometimes....this isn't so much a system as a philosophy. You can play that way and still play a center lock, left wing lock, double wing lock....it is all about skating.
Lavi never had the blueline skating that his way of thinking relies on. He lost the faith of the front office by butchering his use of Bob and forcing Homer's hand into signing Bryz.

As for Berube...he looks completely at sea. It isn't that he has lost the core of the team, or the room, I don't think he has an answer. He keeps pulling at straws but all he really is doing is running a 2-1-2 center lock. This is peewee hockey 101. The lack of execution in the PK, (see my post from earlier), the lack of cohesion in how to play within this simple system....again, that is both the coach and the staff and how everything is laid out. I don't see anyone on this staff being around too much longer....

1) LOL Lavi did not force Homer's hand into signing Bryz, and I don't even think Homer wanted Bryz - it was all Ed Snider - Bob had ONE FRIGGIN YEAR of experience when they signed Bryz, that's on dumbshit Eddie for signing Bryz and panicking because "he might not get to see another Flyers Stanley Cup"

2) Lavi's system of attacking and pressuring opposing teams into turnovers put the forwards to good use because they could use their skill - under Chief, they don't do that and that's a problem - they don't initiate and that's why they get in these holes every game - how many times under Lavi(even though they trailed in games early and came back under him too) did you see the Flyers initiate by pressuring and creating turnovers and they got off to big starts? You don't see that under Chief because they sit back too much

 

[awaz]

Catching up on the last few..

1. I agree 100% that the bryzaster was completely on snider. He wanted bryz to be the goalie and long term. Homer did what his boss told him to.

2. I love lavy as a coach. I like his fire and I like his aggressive system. Beyond fire and aggressive/passive I don't know a lot of hockey systems. I never played haha. But lavy lost the room and should've been gone before last season. Sucks. I prefer fire and aggressive always, but there's definitely benefits that can be had from a more passive coach.

3. While I like Hexy, I don't know that he's proven that he'll get good returns on trades. Especially trading from a position of weakness, which is where the flyers are. Selling 'potential' with good contract situations rarely works out. Best case, you start from scratch with a new first round pick that takes 3-4 years to develop and hope he develops. The other decent option is to trade for other teams disappointing parts a la jvr/schenn. There's just not a great way to trade potential stars when you're rebuilding. I think it's best to just hold on to them and help them develop the best you can.

4. The thing with streaky guys like schenn, couturier, and Simmonds is, if they were consistently playing at their 'hot' level, they'd be all stars, guys you build your team around. Guys like G and Voracek. The fact of the matter is, you're never going to have a team full of guys like that. You have to fill out your middle six with guys like that and hopefully there's a good mix of guys that are playing at their 'hot' level to compliment your stars.

5. Defensively I think the forwards are fine. I've seen g, Voracek, couturier, read, and raffl all play at a high level defensively. I think the defensive problems are 80% the dmen suck, 15% coaching, and 5% on the forwards.

 

[flyersfan4706]

The only kid I am open to trading is Brayden Schenn, and I'd still be hesitant with that. I want to believe with him but it has been more of the same. Sure he is producing more this year but he just doesn't have an substance to his play it seems. Not that he is supposed to be a flashy player, but his production almost seems invisible.

Never trade Couturier. Just don't. His is not a 2C now. He may never be. Though he does seemingly produce when he is not saddled with terrible linemates. Even if he is not producing we have a young center who is elite defensively. You don't win Cups without a Selke calibre forward on your team. (Kopitar, Richards, Toews, Hossa, Bergeron, Staal, Datsyuk)

Honestly, anything Hextall adds is gravy for me. Sell off extra parts. Read, Coburn, Streit, Raffl, Luke Schenn, and maybe even the bad contracts like Grossmann and MacDonald. I am looking 3 years down the road at minimum. These guys are not leading us anywhere in the meantime. Get them out, let this team suck, and maybe picks up some extra assets. It is time to accept that this team can not possibly be morphed into a contender, even if we sold off every pick and prospect we have. We have three stud defensemen prospects, a top 5 center who is hopefully still very effective by the time they are around, and a starting goalie. Go from there.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Catching up on the last few..

1. I agree 100% that the bryzaster was completely on snider. He wanted bryz to be the goalie and long term. Homer did what his boss told him to.

2. I love lavy as a coach. I like his fire and I like his aggressive system. Beyond fire and aggressive/passive I don't know a lot of hockey systems. I never played haha. But lavy lost the room and should've been gone before last season. Sucks. I prefer fire and aggressive always, but there's definitely benefits that can be had from a more passive coach.

3. While I like Hexy, I don't know that he's proven that he'll get good returns on trades. Especially trading from a position of weakness, which is where the flyers are. Selling 'potential' with good contract situations rarely works out. Best case, you start from scratch with a new first round pick that takes 3-4 years to develop and hope he develops. The other decent option is to trade for other teams disappointing parts a la jvr/schenn. There's just not a great way to trade potential stars when you're rebuilding. I think it's best to just hold on to them and help them develop the best you can.

4. The thing with streaky guys like schenn, couturier, and Simmonds is, if they were consistently playing at their 'hot' level, they'd be all stars, guys you build your team around. Guys like G and Voracek. The fact of the matter is, you're never going to have a team full of guys like that. You have to fill out your middle six with guys like that and hopefully there's a good mix of guys that are playing at their 'hot' level to compliment your stars.

5. Defensively I think the forwards are fine. I've seen g, Voracek, couturier, read, and raffl all play at a high level defensively. I think the defensive problems are 80% the dmen suck, 15% coaching, and 5% on the forwards.

On 5, I'm still not sure the forwards are doing enough defensively - Matt Read, for as good as he's been in the past, he's had some real bad defensive efforts this season - even Couts has had a few bad games defensively(everyone has it for the most part) - I think as bad as the d-men are, the forwards have to help a little bit if they can

Also, the penalty killing is awful - they need to find better pk'ers, whether it's the system or whatever, they're not getting it done - when they were playing well before the break they weren't taking penalties but they reverted back after the break

Speaking of the break, notice how each time after a long break(5 days and 3 days) that the Flyers played like hot garbage after it?

 

[Cobiemonster]

The only kid I am open to trading is Brayden Schenn, and I'd still be hesitant with that. I want to believe with him but it has been more of the same. Sure he is producing more this year but he just doesn't have an substance to his play it seems. Not that he is supposed to be a flashy player, but his production almost seems invisible.

Never trade Couturier. Just don't. His is not a 2C now. He may never be. Though he does seemingly produce when he is not saddled with terrible linemates. Even if he is not producing we have a young center who is elite defensively. You don't win Cups without a Selke calibre forward on your team. (Kopitar, Richards, Toews, Hossa, Bergeron, Staal, Datsyuk)

Honestly, anything Hextall adds is gravy for me. Sell off extra parts. Read, Coburn, Streit, Raffl, Luke Schenn, and maybe even the bad contracts like Grossmann and MacDonald. I am looking 3 years down the road at minimum. These guys are not leading us anywhere in the meantime. Get them out, let this team suck, and maybe picks up some extra assets. It is time to accept that this team can not possibly be morphed into a contender, even if we sold off every pick and prospect we have. We have three stud defensemen prospects, a top 5 center who is hopefully still very effective by the time they are around, and a starting goalie. Go from there.

I would move Brayden Schenn, I just don't see the consistency with him where he's really good at one thing - at least with Couts he's really good defensively - Schenner isn't really good at any one thing to be honest - if they could land a top six winger for him that might be a good enough deal

As for the extra parts, I agree - teams need d-men I think teams think highly enough of Braydon Coburn that something could happen - also, guys like Matt Read could be interesting targets as well - MDZ might be a good one because he's on a one year deal and if you can't re-sign him, flip him for an asset

 

[chy1127]

I would move Brayden Schenn, I just don't see the consistency with him where he's really good at one thing - at least with Couts he's really good defensively - Schenner isn't really good at any one thing to be honest - if they could land a top six winger for him that might be a good enough deal

As for the extra parts, I agree - teams need d-men I think teams think highly enough of Braydon Coburn that something could happen - also, guys like Matt Read could be interesting targets as well - MDZ might be a good one because he's on a one year deal and if you can't re-sign him, flip him for an asset

I don't think that anyone at the moment would want any of these players. I have defended Coburn, forever, and any GM (other than our former GM, Homer) can see the deficiencies in his game. He would be a good 3rd pairing guy but makes $4.5. MDZ is a decent 3rd pairing guy and isn't real expensive but what would we get back? Maybe a minor league forward or 5-6th round pick. Read has potential but has dropped off a step and has a decent cap hit. We really don't have many pieces to move other than the young guys and we should keep the young guys.

 

[flyersfan4706]

Last deadline:

Goc for a 3rd and a 5th
Stempniak for a 3rd
Diaz for a 5th
Rundblad for a 2nd
Nick Schultz for a 5th
Mike Weaver for a 5th
Robidas for a 4th

There is always a market. Contenders will buy.

I'd like to keep MDZ since he has been fine and is still young. Read and Coburb are better than anyone I just listed. They'd fetch at least 2nds

 

[chy1127]

Last deadline:

Goc for a 3rd and a 5th
Stempniak for a 3rd
Diaz for a 5th
Rundblad for a 2nd
Nick Schultz for a 5th
Mike Weaver for a 5th
Robidas for a 4th

There is always a market. Contenders will buy.

I'd like to keep MDZ since he has been fine and is still young. Read and Coburb are better than anyone I just listed. They'd fetch at least 2nds

I will do cartwheels if anyone would give a 2nd for Coburn with another year on his contract.

 

[chy1127]

I will even volunteer to move his stuff to a new city.

 

[lasgop8]

Last deadline:

Goc for a 3rd and a 5th
Stempniak for a 3rd
Diaz for a 5th
Rundblad for a 2nd
Nick Schultz for a 5th
Mike Weaver for a 5th
Robidas for a 4th

There is always a market. Contenders will buy.

I'd like to keep MDZ since he has been fine and is still young. Read and Coburb are better than anyone I just listed. They'd fetch at least 2nds

At this point and sad to say I think Shultz is better than Coburn from that list.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'd package the Schenn's if I could and if the Flyers could get a top six winger for the two or a 1st round pick, I'd be happy - and maybe the Flyers pay a bit of salary to trade those two guys

The problem with MDZ is that you might have to sign him to a two or three year deal and you risk blocking the young guys - a young guy like Robert Hagg could easily step in for him next season at a cheaper price because you know there will be teams willing to sign MDZ for more money seeing that he's played solid enough this season - I think you could get a 3rd for MDZ considering he's on a one year deal, which isn't bad + he's young

Braydon Coburn needs to go too - maybe he could fetch a 1st because of his past reputation but that's pushing it

 

[awaz]

I'd package the Schenn's if I could and if the Flyers could get a top six winger for the two or a 1st round pick, I'd be happy - and maybe the Flyers pay a bit of salary to trade those two guys

The problem with MDZ is that you might have to sign him to a two or three year deal and you risk blocking the young guys - a young guy like Robert Hagg could easily step in for him next season at a cheaper price because you know there will be teams willing to sign MDZ for more money seeing that he's played solid enough this season - I think you could get a 3rd for MDZ considering he's on a one year deal, which isn't bad + he's young

Braydon Coburn needs to go too - maybe he could fetch a 1st because of his past reputation but that's pushing it

The bold is the type of deal that comes back to bite you IMO. You're trading a top 6 winger and a top 6 dman for a top 6 winger OR a draft pick. That's not good value IMO. I'd rather hold on to both Schenn's than make a deal like that. BSchenn is signed through next year at 2.5 and is RFA after that. He's got a fantastic contract situation, even if he does end up being a 3rd line type guy, but he definitely has the potential to play top 6. The only person with a better contract situation on the team is probably Couturier. I think those are the kinds of contracts the Flyers absolutely have to keep. They're paid at their 'worst possible level' with lots of room above that should they develop.

MDZ I agree with moving for everything you said. As mentioned, the one year deal makes him valuable at the trade deadline. If Runblad got a 2nd, I think MDZ can get a 3rd.

As much as I've resisted the trade Coburn stuff, if he can fetch a 1st, I'll pack his bags. I hope he can retrieve more than just a 2nd if he cant return a 1st. His contract isn't something that would kill his deal. 4.5 is pretty good for a top 4 guy. Plus it expires in 2016 so it's not super long.

 

[Cobiemonster]

The bold is the type of deal that comes back to bite you IMO. You're trading a top 6 winger and a top 6 dman for a top 6 winger OR a draft pick. That's not good value IMO. I'd rather hold on to both Schenn's than make a deal like that. BSchenn is signed through next year at 2.5 and is RFA after that. He's got a fantastic contract situation, even if he does end up being a 3rd line type guy, but he definitely has the potential to play top 6. The only person with a better contract situation on the team is probably Couturier. I think those are the kinds of contracts the Flyers absolutely have to keep. They're paid at their 'worst possible level' with lots of room above that should they develop.

MDZ I agree with moving for everything you said. As mentioned, the one year deal makes him valuable at the trade deadline. If Runblad got a 2nd, I think MDZ can get a 3rd.

As much as I've resisted the trade Coburn stuff, if he can fetch a 1st, I'll pack his bags. I hope he can retrieve more than just a 2nd if he cant return a 1st. His contract isn't something that would kill his deal. 4.5 is pretty good for a top 4 guy. Plus it expires in 2016 so it's not super long.

My concern with Brayden Schenn is that they're going to reach a point where it gets to RFA a year from now and they don't know what to do with him - they could be in a rock in a hard place as far as how much money to give him, if he doesn't develop fully - some team could give a bigger contract of course and then you don't match and you get the pick(s) but wouldn't you rather want roster players in return if he goes like that? That's all I'm saying - I'm not saying they shouldn't keep him because he isn't good enough, but you have to consider that he's not going to be on that on that contract forever and eventually he's going to get a legitimate spike in his contract and it will be at the point where they'll have to decide whether to sign him long term or trade him - and if Scott Laughton keeps progressing well and is good enough to be a 2nd line center like Mike Richards was, then it could make the decision somewhat easier to take regarding Brayden Schenn

They could always trade him now and get screwed over which would really suck, but I'd rather them trade him before his contract is up while he's still affordable enough, otherwise, if you sign him to an extension and then trade him, maybe he doesn't hold as much value, I dunno but that's my thinking

 

[awaz]

My concern with Brayden Schenn is that they're going to reach a point where it gets to RFA a year from now and they don't know what to do with him - they could be in a rock in a hard place as far as how much money to give him, if he doesn't develop fully - some team could give a bigger contract of course and then you don't match and you get the pick(s) but wouldn't you rather want roster players in return if he goes like that? That's all I'm saying - I'm not saying they shouldn't keep him because he isn't good enough, but you have to consider that he's not going to be on that on that contract forever and eventually he's going to get a legitimate spike in his contract and it will be at the point where they'll have to decide whether to sign him long term or trade him - and if Scott Laughton keeps progressing well and is good enough to be a 2nd line center like Mike Richards was, then it could make the decision somewhat easier to take regarding Brayden Schenn

They could always trade him now and get screwed over which would really suck, but I'd rather them trade him before his contract is up while he's still affordable enough, otherwise, if you sign him to an extension and then trade him, maybe he doesn't hold as much value, I dunno but that's my thinking

I actually see Schenn's contract coming up as a positive thing more than a negative thing. The Flyers already have too many contracts that go for too long. Even when his contract is up in 2016, he's going to be negotiating from a weak point. Depending on his play in the next year and a half, the Flyers can offer him 3-3.5 to play on the 3rd line, if that's all the further he progresses, or they can offer him 4-5 to play on the second line (which is pretty decent value). If he doesn't like it, wants more money for longer, let someone give up multiple draft picks for him. I'm perfectly OK with that. Given the current makeup of the Flyers organization, I'd rather get multiple draft picks for him than get an established player because the player comes with an established contract, which I'm afraid of.

I think of the guys that would be available in a trade like that, and I think of guys like Patrick Hornqvist on the Pens. He's signed at 4.25 through 2018. I would much rather have BSchenn at 2.5 with some uncertainty about his contract moving forward than Hornqvist at that number. There's still time to evaluate Schenn's worth and in the end, you'll still have draft picks coming your way if he signs at a number you don't like, because it will be with a different team. Then you have $$ and draft picks.

 

[awaz]

Really in the end, I think one of the Flyers biggest needs is flexibility. Right now they have dangerously little flexibility against the cap to maneuver. Soon-to-expire contracts like Schenn's are really important I think, just because they don't have many of them.