Flyers Sign Nick Schultz To Multi-Year Extension

[flyersfan4706]

We have 9 defensemen signed. Schultz isn't getting traded and I doubt anyone has any interest in CC. It also seems like Kimmo won't have enough time to prove himself. I also don't think Streit is available at all.

That leaves us with Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn, MDZ, and Amac. Are we going to roll with 9 defensemen down the stretch?

 

[awaz]

This deal is all about being able to move at either Grossman or Coburn, or both....

why sign the extension now then? I guess that's really my problem with it. Why now? Why not wait until after the deadline to see what you were able to accomplish?

 

[awaz]

also cool feature of hoop2.0, you can highlight part of someone's post and a 'quote' button pops up and you can quote just that section. that's what I've been doing on the past couple quotes, kinda neat.

 

[Retroram52]

Yea awaz, I'm finding some pretty cool features in this new version of the SportsHoopla.

 

[chy1127]

why sign the extension now then? I guess that's really my problem with it. Why now? Why not wait until after the deadline to see what you were able to accomplish?

From what I have been reading, Schultz really wanted to come back and was pushing for a multi year deal before the TD. Multi year removes the rental tag. It sounds like he gave a "discount" to the team for signing him now. I would think that there is some interests in one of Coburn, Grossmann or Schenn. If 1 or more of these guys is moved the Schultz deal looks pretty good. The downside is there are some decent rentals that are better than our big 3. True rentals include Petry, Michalek and Sekera.

 

[awaz]

From what I have been reading, Schultz really wanted to come back and was pushing for a multi year deal before the TD. Multi year removes the rental tag. It sounds like he gave a "discount" to the team for signing him now. I would think that there is some interests in one of Coburn, Grossmann or Schenn. If 1 or more of these guys is moved the Schultz deal looks pretty good. The downside is there are some decent rentals that are better than our big 3. True rentals include Petry, Michalek and Sekera.

eh, I still don't like it. you shouldn't make a deal because a player 'really wanted to'. While it's a good contract and good term for the player, it still handicaps their flexibility which will hurt the trade value of other players. The Flyers pretty much HAVE to get rid of 2 dmen now. Too much supply, not enough demand, means you get nothing useful in return.

 

[chy1127]

eh, I still don't like it. you shouldn't make a deal because a player 'really wanted to'. While it's a good contract and good term for the player, it still handicaps their flexibility which will hurt the trade value of other players. The Flyers pretty much HAVE to get rid of 2 dmen now. Too much supply, not enough demand, means you get nothing useful in return.

IF and its a big IF, at least 1 of the 3 I mentioned is moved then I think it is a good signing. He has played better then all 3 and is less expensive. The most important factor is that there has to be some change on the blue line. If no one is moved we have the same shitty defense for another year. If no one else is moved I would vote no on the deal.

 

[lasgop8]

I like Schultz and am glad to have him back and now we have to concentrate of getting our other defenseman out of town.

 

[flyersfan4706]

eh, I still don't like it. you shouldn't make a deal because a player 'really wanted to'. While it's a good contract and good term for the player, it still handicaps their flexibility which will hurt the trade value of other players. The Flyers pretty much HAVE to get rid of 2 dmen now. Too much supply, not enough demand, means you get nothing useful in return.

I disagree. The Flyers don't have to do anything. Yeah, it'd be nice to move a defenseman or two but if teams aren't biting then we'll just scratch three guys. Unless we suddenly become a money conscious team there won't be an actual need to trade anyone.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I disagree. The Flyers don't have to do anything. Yeah, it'd be nice to move a defenseman or two but if teams aren't biting then we'll just scratch three guys. Unless we suddenly become a money conscious team there won't be an actual need to trade anyone.

I agree with this - it's not like all the d-men are free agents after this season - they still have a year left on their deals - I would like for them to move them now if they can but it's not the end of the world

 

[awaz]

I don't see how you could possibly be content keeping the same defense as you have this season, next season. They will be just as bad as they are this year. It's not like they're rookies and will get better. Not moving any of them is standing pat on a horrendous defense corp? Does anyone truly want to go in to next season with:

Streit.grossmann
Coburn.schultz
Macdonald.mdz/schenn

Nobody can possibly think that's a good idea.. And that group is too expensive to make in upgrades elsewhere. So not moving some of those dmen means the flyers will not make the playoffs again. Ed is not ok with that, therefore some of those have to get moved. And now other teams know that.

And as cobie said, they're all signed next year. So maybe you stand pat at the deadline because nobody bites. But what about the offseason makes any of these guys more attractive? The tdl is where you can rip,off desperate teams trying to make the playoffs and I feel like the flyers drastically weakened their position because Schultz wanted a deal before the tdl and he's a nice guy.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I don't see how you could possibly be content keeping the same defense as you have this season, next season. They will be just as bad as they are this year. It's not like they're rookies and will get better. Not moving any of them is standing pat on a horrendous defense corp? Does anyone truly want to go in to next season with:

Streit.grossmann
Coburn.schultz
Macdonald.mdz/schenn

Nobody can possibly think that's a good idea.. And that group is too expensive to make in upgrades elsewhere. So not moving some of those dmen means the flyers will not make the playoffs again. Ed is not ok with that, therefore some of those have to get moved. And now other teams know that.

And as cobie said, they're all signed next year. So maybe you stand pat at the deadline because nobody bites. But what about the offseason makes any of these guys more attractive? The tdl is where you can rip,off desperate teams trying to make the playoffs and I feel like the flyers drastically weakened their position because Schultz wanted a deal before the tdl and he's a nice guy.

Here's my issue(and it's not directed at you but in general with the fan base) - people want them to move all the d-men yet the complaint is that if they don't, then they won't make the playoffs next season - it seems like everyone wants them to make the playoffs next season at all costs when that's not smart because that's why they're in the position they're in right now - regardless, they're in a transition type mode for next season, don't you think? Is making the playoffs really the goal next season considering what might happen if they do move those d-men? It almost seems like people want them to move the d-men and then when they do get the cap space, they're good with them spending it to improve the team, until they end up in the same stupid position again - there's a legit chance that they could move those d-men now and still miss the playoffs this year AND next year - it's not 100% dependent on whether those guys stay or not as to their chances of being a playoff team

My whole point is that if the Flyers are moving those d-men, it's not because of playoffs/no playoffs - it's because they have young guys that need to be on that team because those guys are blocking them - if you're moving those guys, there's a fair chance that it will end up being a transitional period unless you really clear cap space and can make a quick fix(like the Caps did with Matt Niskanen and Brooks Orpik) - I hope Ed Snider isn't wanting to move those d-men just to spend the money and put the team in the same damn situation again - that's why the draft is important and if you can get picks for the d-men, then great but moving those d-men isn't a matter of whether it helps/hurt you make the playoffs the next season, it's about setting theirselves up for future years - the Flyers have to get a good combination of cap space and assets in return in trades - they're not just giving away the d-men(whether you think they're good enough or not) - yeah cap space is valued when you can clear it in trades but people need to realize that if you give up one of these d-men for a lower pick, people will probably be up in arms because they just "gave him away" - the Flyers can always move these guys and get value for them next year because there isn't as much of a contract commitment with those guys - teams might actually be more willing to give up more for a rental than a player with an extra year on the contract because they feel they won't get the most out of that player if he's around for longer than half of the season

 

[flyersfan4706]

I don't see how you could possibly be content keeping the same defense as you have this season, next season. They will be just as bad as they are this year. It's not like they're rookies and will get better. Not moving any of them is standing pat on a horrendous defense corp? Does anyone truly want to go in to next season with:

Streit.grossmann
Coburn.schultz
Macdonald.mdz/schenn

Nobody can possibly think that's a good idea.. And that group is too expensive to make in upgrades elsewhere. So not moving some of those dmen means the flyers will not make the playoffs again. Ed is not ok with that, therefore some of those have to get moved. And now other teams know that.

And as cobie said, they're all signed next year. So maybe you stand pat at the deadline because nobody bites. But what about the offseason makes any of these guys more attractive? The tdl is where you can rip,off desperate teams trying to make the playoffs and I feel like the flyers drastically weakened their position because Schultz wanted a deal before the tdl and he's a nice guy.

Well first of all no matter who we move the defense is going to suck next year. We can trade anyone, sign anyone, and let any kid play and it won't be much better. This is a multi-year process. And there is nothing Snider can do about it easier. Sure, we could sign some mediocre defenseman and make it look different on paper, but nothing is changing.

Again, there is no need to trade anyone. I am the biggest advocate in the world right now for trading defensemen this deadline, but there is nothing forcing our hand that makes us have to do so.

I just don't see how the Schultz signing hurts our position to trade anyone. Like you said, the deadline is a time to rip teams off. Teams will want to buy. They won't care if we have 100 defensemen signed as long as they can get their hands on one of them.

EDIT: And as I begin to read Cobie's post...playoffs next year should not be expected. Any form of our current defense should not have people thinking about the playoffs.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Well first of all no matter who we move the defense is going to suck next year. We can trade anyone, sign anyone, and let any kid play and it won't be much better. This is a multi-year process. And there is nothing Snider can do about it easier. Sure, we could sign some mediocre defenseman and make it look different on paper, but nothing is changing.

Again, there is no need to trade anyone. I am the biggest advocate in the world right now for trading defensemen this deadline, but there is nothing forcing our hand that makes us have to do so.

I just don't see how the Schultz signing hurts our position to trade anyone. Like you said, the deadline is a time to rip teams off. Teams will want to buy. They won't care if we have 100 defensemen signed as long as they can get their hands on one of them.

EDIT: And as I begin to read Cobie's post...playoffs next year should not be expected. Any form of our current defense should not have people thinking about the playoffs.

You are so on point with this, thank you

I would love, like anyone else, to see them be able to move the d-men now and get good returns for them, but if they move Braydon Coburn for a 3rd or 4th round pick, I would riot because that would be absolutely stupid - the last thing the Flyers need to do is let teams rip them off because they know the situation they're in, just so that they can get some more "cap space", when those guys are going to end up off the books after next season anyways - the whole point of moving the d-men is to be able to get picks/prospects/younger roster players in return and give the younger guys a chance to play, as long as they still have a veteran here and there on defense to help them out - if you can't accomplish both goals in trades involving these d-men, then you can't get ripped off - you don't want another Scottie Upshall/Dan Carcillo disaster - it's not the end of the world if they don't move those guys now - and they're not going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better next season, they might be a little bit better and get back in the playoffs but it won't be a quantum leap, so for anyone wanting them to move the d-men because they want to make that quantum leap next season, it's not happening because there's more to it than just moving d-men - they need to re-make some of their forward group as well and really look at getting a number two scoring center whether they can find it in the draft, or in a trade or in free agency in the right situation

And also, it should be to the Flyers advantage that they have lots of d-men - multiple teams will be interested in talking with the Flyers because the Flyers have more of an abundance than other teams - it's not a disadvantage - screw the feelings of A-Mac and others who get pissed when they're scratched, that's what happens when you have plenty of d-men in the fold - those guys are making plenty of money, I'm sure they can't be that mad

 

[flyersfan4706]

You are so on point with this, thank you

I would love, like anyone else, to see them be able to move the d-men now and get good returns for them, but if they move Braydon Coburn for a 3rd or 4th round pick, I would riot because that would be absolutely stupid - the last thing the Flyers need to do is let teams rip them off because they know the situation they're in, just so that they can get some more "cap space", when those guys are going to end up off the books after next season anyways - the whole point of moving the d-men is to be able to get picks/prospects/younger roster players in return and give the younger guys a chance to play, as long as they still have a veteran here and there on defense to help them out - if you can't accomplish both goals in trades involving these d-men, then you can't get ripped off - you don't want another Scottie Upshall/Dan Carcillo disaster - it's not the end of the world if they don't move those guys now - and they're not going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better next season, they might be a little bit better and get back in the playoffs but it won't be a quantum leap, so for anyone wanting them to move the d-men because they want to make that quantum leap next season, it's not happening because there's more to it than just moving d-men - they need to re-make some of their forward group as well and really look at getting a number two scoring center whether they can find it in the draft, or in a trade or in free agency in the right situation

And also, it should be to the Flyers advantage that they have lots of d-men - multiple teams will be interested in talking with the Flyers because the Flyers have more of an abundance than other teams - it's not a disadvantage - screw the feelings of A-Mac and others who get pissed when they're scratched, that's what happens when you have plenty of d-men in the fold - those guys are making plenty of money, I'm sure they can't be that mad

Very underrated problem in the bold. I love Couturier, but he may just be our 3C shutdown guy long term (Not like that would be a bad thing, having an elite defensive center on the 3rd line to shut guys down would be ideal). Not sure if Laughton will score enough to be a scoring 2C, but there is plenty of time to find that out. Until we get a legit 2C there is always going to be a huge hole of depth after Giroux and Voracek.

I am glad you agree with me. We have plenty of potential moving parts, defensemen none the less. Team will be interested, I just worry if Hextall is ready to sell. And if someone says "We'll only give you a 5th for Coburn" then we can easily decline and move forward. Again, ideally we move someone but certainly not necessary.

 

[Retroram52]

Until we remove these constricting (huge) contracts like LeCavalier's, we are going to be stuck in transition mode because we do not have the financial flexibility to make the moves necessary to get to the next level.

 

[awaz]

I'm not for moving these guys at all costs. Obviously you need to get good value for them or you keep them.

My issue with signing Schultz, especially now, is that he was a prime candidate for ripping someone off. He had a miniscule cap hit, veteran, has been playing very well this season. He's the guy you can move for a 2nd round pick that probably doesn't deserve a 2nd round pick at the trade deadline. Him and MDZ should have been the SELL trades this season. You get the most bang for your buck. Decent players, playing very well, small cap hits, no contract next year. That is what teams want.

They don't want Grossmann for 3.5 mil next year. They want him to be a warrior for the playoff run this season and then go away. His value relative to what he provides on the ice is no higher at the TDL than it would be this summer because of the extra year. He will cause teams cap problems in 2015-16 that they will have to deal with, which drives his TDL value down.

Schenn, same story.

Coburn is a little different because teams will actually want him long term. But again, it's not as high as it could be if he were a rental. Teams still have to figure out their tagging space for next season, and be prepared to work around his 4.5 mil hit next season. While it doesn't effect it big time, it still drives his value down a bit.

I honestly don't see the above 3 being moved. I don't think the value will be there. If they are moved, it will be for less than they're worth IMO (which I don't want). So while that's 'OK' in terms of filling out your transition team next year, it doesn't help your future. I'm with you guys, what I covet most for the flyers right now is draft picks.

And as for keeping the d spots filled until the young guys force them out, I'm all for that as well. Only reason I don't want it to be the same as next year is because you know, 100%, this defense is not good enough. I'd like to see a change. I would have liked to see Schultz walk in free agency and bring in another MDZ type signing. Quick puck mover, out of favor elsewhere, signings like that. Just something different. Change the chemistry of the defense, see if you can find a combination of guys that makes you competitive. I don't want to spend 5 mil and 5 years on the experiment, but a nice 1 year deal at 1.5 mil. Extremely low risk, sets you up with a deadline rental possibly, and maybe turns in to a diamond in the rough. Schultz is playing at his peak right now, he's not going to be better next year, he's not going to make the defense better next year.

Until the Flyers figure it out, they should be signing guys to 1 year deals and selling them at the trade deadline. That's how you acquire a ton of picks and a ton of talent in your prospect pool with relatively little expense from your end. If you stumble on a group of dmen that makes you competitive, sweet, make a fun run to the playoffs. If not, sell em for picks. Don't sign them for an additional year because they played well. What good does that do for you?

 

[Cobiemonster]

Very underrated problem in the bold. I love Couturier, but he may just be our 3C shutdown guy long term (Not like that would be a bad thing, having an elite defensive center on the 3rd line to shut guys down would be ideal). Not sure if Laughton will score enough to be a scoring 2C, but there is plenty of time to find that out. Until we get a legit 2C there is always going to be a huge hole of depth after Giroux and Voracek.

I am glad you agree with me. We have plenty of potential moving parts, defensemen none the less. Team will be interested, I just worry if Hextall is ready to sell. And if someone says "We'll only give you a 5th for Coburn" then we can easily decline and move forward. Again, ideally we move someone but certainly not necessary.

I love Couts as a third line center, because then the team doesn't have to ask for more offense out of him - so tired of that because it's clear to this day that he is what he is and the team is trying to make him do too much - it's not his fault that the team hasn't properly filled the second line center spot

The problem is, you won't find that second line center in free agency because the top centers in FA are 45-50 points at best and they need 60 minimum - so that leaves it to the draft and trades

I don't want Hexy selling just to sell - I have no problem with him not buying at all, but don't sell just because all the fans(and half of them are dumber than a box of rocks) want to sell and put pressure on you - if you don't find the right deal, then it simply doesn't need to be done

 

[flyersfan4706]

I'm not for moving these guys at all costs. Obviously you need to get good value for them or you keep them.

My issue with signing Schultz, especially now, is that he was a prime candidate for ripping someone off. He had a miniscule cap hit, veteran, has been playing very well this season. He's the guy you can move for a 2nd round pick that probably doesn't deserve a 2nd round pick at the trade deadline. Him and MDZ should have been the SELL trades this season. You get the most bang for your buck. Decent players, playing very well, small cap hits, no contract next year. That is what teams want.

They don't want Grossmann for 3.5 mil next year. They want him to be a warrior for the playoff run this season and then go away. His value relative to what he provides on the ice is no higher at the TDL than it would be this summer because of the extra year. He will cause teams cap problems in 2015-16 that they will have to deal with, which drives his TDL value down.

Schenn, same story.

Coburn is a little different because teams will actually want him long term. But again, it's not as high as it could be if he were a rental. Teams still have to figure out their tagging space for next season, and be prepared to work around his 4.5 mil hit next season. While it doesn't effect it big time, it still drives his value down a bit.

I honestly don't see the above 3 being moved. I don't think the value will be there. If they are moved, it will be for less than they're worth IMO (which I don't want). So while that's 'OK' in terms of filling out your transition team next year, it doesn't help your future. I'm with you guys, what I covet most for the flyers right now is draft picks.

And as for keeping the d spots filled until the young guys force them out, I'm all for that as well. Only reason I don't want it to be the same as next year is because you know, 100%, this defense is not good enough. I'd like to see a change. I would have liked to see Schultz walk in free agency and bring in another MDZ type signing. Quick puck mover, out of favor elsewhere, signings like that. Just something different. Change the chemistry of the defense, see if you can find a combination of guys that makes you competitive. I don't want to spend 5 mil and 5 years on the experiment, but a nice 1 year deal at 1.5 mil. Extremely low risk, sets you up with a deadline rental possibly, and maybe turns in to a diamond in the rough. Schultz is playing at his peak right now, he's not going to be better next year, he's not going to make the defense better next year.

Until the Flyers figure it out, they should be signing guys to 1 year deals and selling them at the trade deadline. That's how you acquire a ton of picks and a ton of talent in your prospect pool with relatively little expense from your end. If you stumble on a group of dmen that makes you competitive, sweet, make a fun run to the playoffs. If not, sell em for picks. Don't sign them for an additional year because they played well. What good does that do for you?

I wanted to sell high on Schultz too, but of the three seemingly "valuable" defensemen (Coburn, MDZ, and Schultz) Schultz definitely holds the least value. I don't think he'll be this good next year, so a pick would have been awesome.

Schenn and Grossmann are definitley not easy to sell, but I think they could be moved. Again, teams getting desperate around the deadline. I am not counting on it though.

With Coburn I think the 4.5 price tag with term is more valuable than being just a rental. In a world where MacDonald get $5mil, Orpik $5.5, and Niskanen $5.75, Coburn looks very pretty.

Without CapGeek it is hard to look into, but how many MDZ type players hit UFA? A once promising RFA who doesn't get tendered doesn't seem to happen too often, at least not off the top of my head. I liked the signing the moment it happened, but I am not sure it can just be counted on that guys like MDZ will always be available. Even with experimental 1 year signings the defense will remain largely the same.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I wanted to sell high on Schultz too, but of the three seemingly "valuable" defensemen (Coburn, MDZ, and Schultz) Schultz definitely holds the least value. I don't think he'll be this good next year, so a pick would have been awesome.

Schenn and Grossmann are definitley not easy to sell, but I think they could be moved. Again, teams getting desperate around the deadline. I am not counting on it though.

With Coburn I think the 4.5 price tag with term is more valuable than being just a rental. In a world where MacDonald get $5mil, Orpik $5.5, and Niskanen $5.75, Coburn looks very pretty.

Without CapGeek it is hard to look into, but how many MDZ type players hit UFA? A once promising RFA who doesn't get tendered doesn't seem to happen too often, at least not off the top of my head. I liked the signing the moment it happened, but I am not sure it can just be counted on that guys like MDZ will always be available. Even with experimental 1 year signings the defense will remain largely the same.

Yep, you have to wait for those young d-men to develop in order to really improve on defense - it's going to be much of the same on the blueline until they come up or if you make a trade to get a really good d-man, which would be easier said than done