Final Thoughts

[CatsTopPac]

I don't know. I guess like some, but unlike others, I think it's crazy to talk so much shit about the Dodgers. Back to back NL West Champs is nothing to shake a stick at. I think this year's team was a very good one. We won 94 games.

Some things to work on that I'm tired of dealing with:

1) LA has got to start better. Last couple years we are having to come back to win the West. We need to start strong so that we ensure home field advantage in the playoffs, and play WC teams instead of division winners in the DS.

2) Obviously, we are all so fucking tired of our bullpen. This isn't an October thing. It's all season, and it's unacceptable. If Honeycutt can't fix it, then he needs to go. But we have more than enough money, and more then enough quality arms that there is no reason this should be a problem.

3) BA w/RISP. This also killed us last October. It really hasn't been as much about the the Cards beating us (as consistent and experienced as they are), as much as it's about LA just locking up with guys on base. Mostly it has been the young guys (Dee and Puig in the last two Octobers), but overall, our young guys need to turn the corner.

Hopeful for next year, and we'll see what happens in the offseason. Sorry I can't trash the team because we lost. There is a reason we won 187 games in the last two years. Cards are a good squad, and our inconsistency kills us every year. But that's our problem, and that's how we beat ourselves. I'll accept this year's results more than 25 other teams that did worse.

Go Blue

 

[SJ20]

The payroll alone has produced a team capable of winning the boring NL West. This team continues to FAIL in the postseason, where it counts. Changes must be made or this team will continue to list 1988 as its last World Series appearance.

Every other NL West team has made it to the World Series from 1998 through 2012. Yet the Dodgers haven't made it since 1988. No excuses.

 

[lasportzphan]

I don't know. I guess like some, but unlike others, I think it's crazy to talk so much shit about the Dodgers. Back to back NL West Champs is nothing to shake a stick at. I think this year's team was a very good one. We won 94 games.

Some things to work on that I'm tired of dealing with:

1) LA has got to start better. Last couple years we are having to come back to win the West. We need to start strong so that we ensure home field advantage in the playoffs, and play WC teams instead of division winners in the DS.

2) Obviously, we are all so fucking tired of our bullpen. This isn't an October thing. It's all season, and it's unacceptable. If Honeycutt can't fix it, then he needs to go. But we have more than enough money, and more then enough quality arms that there is no reason this should be a problem.

3) BA w/RISP. This also killed us last October. It really hasn't been as much about the the Cards beating us (as consistent and experienced as they are), as much as it's about LA just locking up with guys on base. Mostly it has been the young guys (Dee and Puig in the last two Octobers), but overall, our young guys need to turn the corner.

Hopeful for next year, and we'll see what happens in the offseason. Sorry I can't trash the team because we lost. There is a reason we won 187 games in the last two years. Cards are a good squad, and our inconsistency kills us every year. But that's our problem, and that's how we beat ourselves. I'll accept this year's results more than 25 other teams that did worse.

Go Blue

It's rare that teams hit their way through the playoffs. It's about having a complete staff, situational/clutch hitting and good defense.

The Dodgers actually played very good defense in the playoffs, something that worried me. The starting pitching was good but needed to be great in order for this team to overcome an awful bullpen.

Sure, they could have hit better. But they had the one offensive outburst and Clayton and Co. Blew it. They had the clutch Matt Kemp hit and they scratched up to runs to support Claytons gem, but the Cardinals were more clutch and the Dodgers did what they managed all year: nothing after the 7th.

So when a team never comes back after 7, continually fades in the 7th defensively? Well, you go fishing.

Cats, I love your optimism and glass half full attitude. I felt awful for you (in the sports sense of emotion) because you believed in this team. While I expected this team to fail in the playoffs, I did not expect Kershaw to be right in the middle of it. But that's baseball... You never know.

 

[lasportzphan]

Remember my multiple ramblers about the culture of losing within this organization? Well, the loss today is not what worries me. It's that our best (Kershaw) was not good enough to get us one win. Steal, stumble into it, take it whatever- he was not good enough. He was not good enough last year either.

So I hope they load up our 'pen and take the burden off of his shoulders.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Enough with the payroll bullshit. How many times do I have to explain this. Payroll doesn't mean near what you think it does. $$$ doesn't buy rings. It helps, but it "alone" doesn't mean anything. The Pirates, Royals, A's, and O's all prove that to be false. Hell, so do the Yanks, Red Sox, Phills, and Rangers. Just like last year, the playoff teams who have low payrolls dot the playoff landscape just like teams with high payrolls find themselves at home in October. They are all scattered throughout. Of course you can look at the teams with high payrolls who make it and the low payroll teams who suck, but that's my point: you can pick whatever you want with payrolls. Chemistry, experience, and consistency are individually much greater factors. We have the chemistry that others don't, but our experience (and therefore inconsistency) are what has cost us the last couple years. Hell, with the '08 and '09 teams I would point to the same thing. Most of this team is new since then, and all of those teams were new to October. StL and SF (hell, the Phills back then too) had seasoned coaches with seasoned teams. They had/have experience, chemistry, consistency, AND good payrolls. All of that has to happen for multiple WS appearances and/or rings. You don't just wander into that. Our Owner, head coach, and all but 8 players on the roster are new in the last 3 years. Those new faces consist of 4 starters, 4 pitchers in the rotation, and our entire bull pen but Elbert and Jansen. Let's talk about the core group pitching and hitting for SF, StL, and Phil.

See how it's not about payroll anymore?

 

[CatsTopPac]

It's rare that teams hit their way through the playoffs. It's about having a complete staff, situational/clutch hitting and good defense.

The Dodgers actually played very good defense in the playoffs, something that worried me. The starting pitching was good but needed to be great in order for this team to overcome an awful bullpen.

Sure, they could have hit better. But they had the one offensive outburst and Clayton and Co. Blew it. They had the clutch Matt Kemp hit and they scratched up to runs to support Claytons gem, but the Cardinals were more clutch and the Dodgers did what they managed all year: nothing after the 7th.

So when a team never comes back after 7, continually fades in the 7th defensively? Well, you go fishing.

Cats, I love your optimism and glass half full attitude. I felt awful for you (in the sports sense of emotion) because you believed in this team. While I expected this team to fail in the playoffs, I did not expect Kershaw to be right in the middle of it. But that's baseball... You never know.

I agree with every word of this. What pains me is that both last year and this year we actually did have the hits. We outhit ATL and StL last year, and out hit StL this year. If we had dead bats, that would be a much bigger issue. In terms of ERA, we won the battle of SPs. But like you said, we needed far more to cover what the bullpen was going to give up.

Going off what I wrote in response to S20, we have a ways to go to all be on the same page. Kershaw is only 26. He has pitched quite a bit, but he is still younger than most dominant pitchers in October. I think he has run that reason to it's end though. Next year, that won't be good enough, and we have to start asking real questions about Kershaw in October. But I still think that is a year early to do now.

Going to your point on culture, again, I think my post above does a good job of explaining my position. Donnie is not Bochy right now, nor is he Matheny who really just took over for La Russa, or even what Manuel was. Same could be said for the corpus of players who have played together, as opposed to LA. Just the pitching staffs alone of those three teams and their cohesion, blows the Dodgers' rotation and bullpen from the last two years, apart.

Honestly, I think that it takes time to get all of the moving parts of our organization to come together like those other successful franchises, and especially against them. I think that the last couple years of getting them all together, bringing the young players up, and gelling with the older guys who have been Dodgers for a few years are what is has taken. We have had seasonal and postseason success and experience together, and I think that with facing the issues that have proven to be a trademark of this team is brought us to a point where we either improve it and are able to get over the hump, or we need to make changes and start over in those areas. Mostly, I am talking about the bullpen. I like our starting pitching moving forward, our bats (I think the situational hitting is going to come with comfort in those situations), and the same goes with our defense. Donnie and Honeycutt need to improve, or they need to be replaced.

But Hanley and Kemp came up big. So did Ellis. Those guys were real question marks this season. It's Dee Gordon, the A Gon, , the Uribe and the Puig that let us down at the plate. I think they do better next year (especially Gordon and Puig, because they are young and I think they learned from it).

The biggest issue is that our bullpen needs a solid overhaul. That's the one thing we can all point to for the last two years (playoffs and regular season), that has never failed to completely let us down. It's the one thing that I feel I can say that if we improved upon would have given us the best record in the NL the last two years, and would have had us beat the Cardinals. Everything else was either it worked in the first half, not in the second, worked last year but not this year, worked in the regular season but not in the playoffs, or worked in the playoffs but not during the season. The bullpen has been the one constant. It was going to cost us. We all knew it. It never changed. And we were never surprised.

 

[SJ20]

Highest payroll doesn't always win but it's good enough to help you GET to the playoffs. This team still has many problems including the need for a capable manager. Winning the division means nothing to me. That might be cool for a lesser franchise who never makes the playoffs. The Dodgers should be winning World SerieS. Instead, we're not even close.

 

[lasportzphan]

Enough with the payroll bullshit. How many times do I have to explain this. Payroll doesn't mean near what you think it does. $$$ doesn't buy rings. It helps, but it "alone" doesn't mean anything. The Pirates, Royals, A's, and O's all prove that to be false. Hell, so do the Yanks, Red Sox, Phills, and Rangers. Just like last year, the playoff teams who have low payrolls dot the playoff landscape just like teams with high payrolls find themselves at home in October. They are all scattered throughout. Of course you can look at the teams with high payrolls who make it and the low payroll teams who suck, but that's my point: you can pick whatever you want with payrolls. Chemistry, experience, and consistency are individually much greater factors. We have the chemistry that others don't, but our experience (and therefore inconsistency) are what has cost us the last couple years. Hell, with the '08 and '09 teams I would point to the same thing. Most of this team is new since then, and all of those teams were new to October. StL and SF (hell, the Phills back then too) had seasoned coaches with seasoned teams. They had/have experience, chemistry, consistency, AND good payrolls. All of that has to happen for multiple WS appearances and/or rings. You don't just wander into that. Our Owner, head coach, and all but 8 players on the roster are new in the last 3 years. Those new faces consist of 4 starters, 4 pitchers in the rotation, and our entire bull pen but Elbert and Jansen. Let's talk about the core group pitching and hitting for SF, StL, and Phil.

See how it's not about payroll anymore?

I just ignore payroll chatter, I find it amusing. First off, if the owners want to spend, what do I care? I can still afford my MLB tv. Also, most are uninformed on the payroll now and Stan Kasten. The Dodgers spent huge dollars to get talent in ASAP post McCourt. Bring fans back. The long term approach is spending what is best for winning. But dough on foreign players, infrastructure and the farm system will make the team salary seem insignificant. Karen will not do long term deals past the age of 36. He's building the farm and will add whatever pieces he needs. Enough about payroll, it's a game on the field and off. If the Dodgers spend 500 million I don't care as long as they are winning and making the playoffs and I get my affordable mlbtv

 

[Silas]

Overall, a good season.....just not in the playoffs.

Yes, changes need to be made so we will see what the Dodger brain trust comes up with.

Too bad to see Clayton finish another season on a down note. What separates Koufax from Kershaw is that Koufax was a money pitcher and Kershaw isn't. That needs to change before the Dodgers win another WS and Kershaw can cement a place with the greatest of all time.

Let's get this thing done next season.

 

[lasportzphan]

Overall, a good season.....just not in the playoffs.

Yes, changes need to be made so we will see what the Dodger brain trust comes up with.

Too bad to see Clayton finish another season on a down note. What separates Koufax from Kershaw is that Koufax was a money pitcher and Kershaw isn't. That needs to change before the Dodgers win another WS and Kershaw can cement a place with the greatest of all time.

Let's get this thing done next season.

Kershaw made one mistake today? 6ip and 3er is not bad.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Overall, a good season.....just not in the playoffs.

Yes, changes need to be made so we will see what the Dodger brain trust comes up with.

Too bad to see Clayton finish another season on a down note. What separates Koufax from Kershaw is that Koufax was a money pitcher and Kershaw isn't. That needs to change before the Dodgers win another WS and Kershaw can cement a place with the greatest of all time.

Let's get this thing done next season.

Pretty sure we knew we would need more than 2 runs with Kershaw throwing another 100+ outing on 4 days rest and a garbage bullpen. Kershaw did his job today. He put us in a position to win.

What separates Kershaw from Koufax is about another 5 years of pitching at a very high level and 2 WS MVPs.

 

[Silas]

Bottom line is this guy, as great as he is, doesn't get it done when it counts. He lost two games this time around and got blown out last year. All I'm saying is he needs to get better when it counts. That's what money pitchers do. For whatever reason, that is an attribute that has eluded Kershaw so far in his career.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Bottom line is this guy, as great as he is, doesn't get it done when it counts. He lost two games this time around and got blown out last year. All I'm saying is he needs to get better when it counts. That's what money pitchers do. For whatever reason, that is an attribute that has eluded Kershaw so far in his career.

Might have something to do with him being 26. He's only getting better and that will obviously translate to the postseason sooner than later. I'm really, really, not worried about Kershaw.

 

[Silas]

I think Kershaw is outstanding and the best pitcher I've seen since Koufax. I'd love to see Kershaw win a couple of WS MVP's, but he can't pitch in the post season like he has and ever expect to win a WS MVP. He's 1-5 lifetime in the post season with an ERA over 5.00. That, frankly is ugly.

Kershaw has the talent to dominate in the post season. It's time he turns things around. He will likely win 20 games again next season. He needs to carry regular season dominance in to the post season. Believe me, I'm pulling for him.

 

[lasportzphan]

I think Kershaw is outstanding and the best pitcher I've seen since Koufax. I'd love to see Kershaw win a couple of WS MVP's, but he can't pitch in the post season like he has and ever expect to win a WS MVP. He's 1-5 lifetime in the post season with an ERA over 5.00. That, frankly is ugly.

Kershaw has the talent to dominate in the post season. It's time he turns things around. He will likely win 20 games again next season. He needs to carry regular season dominance in to the post season. Believe me, I'm pulling for him.

Yeah, numbers look bad. Remove the two shitty innings versus the Cards and Keshaw is money again.

 

[lasportzphan]

Bottom bottom line: you blow 6-1 leads in the playoffs, you're going fishing.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Bottom bottom line: you blow 6-1 leads in the playoffs, you're going fishing.

Exactly. Not to play the "what if" game, but had our bullpen been stronger, you pull Kershaw in game 1 because you have a strong arm coming in. Kershaw is known for retiring 17 straight and getting the win. He would have gotten pulled tonight as well because he is only going on 4 days rest, and we have a bunch of confidence in the relievers. Actually, game 4 wouldn't even have been needed. We would have swept them. Kershaw wins game 1 with a bullpen, Greinke won game 2, and Ryu would have won with a bullpen. And then we're not having this conversation.

When it comes down to it, I'd argue that Kershaw took the hit for our shitty bullpen, as did Ryu. THose guys get pulled when they are first showing signs of slowing up, and the bullpen doesn't give it up, then we keep playing. If we have a shitty bullpen, then pitchers have to stay in longer and run out of gas, or hand the ball over and give it up anyway. Pick your poison.

Not saying that Kershaw would or should have gone for a CG. But 6 strong IP is supposed to get you a win if you have a bullpen (especially on 4 days rest). It's called a quality start.

 

[LASports96]

Playoffs are a crap shoots, it's such fuckery. We lost 3 1/2 runs games, shit happens.

We need some improvements to put us in better shape for next year, though.

 

[lasportzphan]

Playoffs are a crap shoots, it's such fuckery. We lost 3 1/2 runs games, shit happens.

We need some improvements to put us in better shape for next year, though.

Uh, I suppose. But then why have the Cards been to 4 straight NLCSs? You need a complete team, then let the fuckery begin.

 

[lasportzphan]

Exactly. Not to play the "what if" game, but had our bullpen been stronger, you pull Kershaw in game 1 because you have a strong arm coming in. Kershaw is known for retiring 17 straight and getting the win. He would have gotten pulled tonight as well because he is only going on 4 days rest, and we have a bunch of confidence in the relievers. Actually, game 4 wouldn't even have been needed. We would have swept them. Kershaw wins game 1 with a bullpen, Greinke won game 2, and Ryu would have won with a bullpen. And then we're not having this conversation.

When it comes down to it, I'd argue that Kershaw took the hit for our shitty bullpen, as did Ryu. THose guys get pulled when they are first showing signs of slowing up, and the bullpen doesn't give it up, then we keep playing. If we have a shitty bullpen, then pitchers have to stay in longer and run out of gas, or hand the ball over and give it up anyway. Pick your poison.

Not saying that Kershaw would or should have gone for a CG. But 6 strong IP is supposed to get you a win if you have a bullpen (especially on 4 days rest). It's called a quality start.

Hard not to play the what if game. The game 1 loss is the worst I've experinced as a fan (going back to '85). To lose to these fucks last year while they intentionally pelted Han Ram, and then square off in game one after another pelting, jump on Wainright and still have them jump on our ace and win? Soul crushing. Worst loss I've been through.