Fighting....Place in the NHL or no?

[Forty_Sixand2]

Bare knuckle boxing was banned in the United States in 1889. It is not banned, in fact praised and promoted in the NHL.


It is barbaric, idiotic and well past the point where it should have been banned.

If they ban fighting, a certain group of players will lose their jobs!?! Yeah....to other ACTUAL HOCKEY players....

Any league that claims to care about player safety and eliminating head shots can not let a circus side show that has no impact on the game continue where violent blows to the head are cheered on.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

While I am a big advocate of fighting in the NHL, I do believe there is no longer a need for true enforcers anymore. And the type of players I am talking about are the career fighters, the stage fighters, etc.

These are the fights that just bore me and they are also the ones that will take a toll on a players body. I like the fights that just happen because someone is pissed off at the other guy and they agree to fight. I don't think there is a place in the game for these guys and I do believe they are slowly being forced out fo the league.

 

[4thstreet]

And one more point: fighting has been in the league for a long time, and yet there had been a steady and significant decrease of respect between players in recent years especially

. Cheap shot artists do run rampant. However, respect is back on the rise and cheap shots are starting to phase out little by little this year. And it has nothing to do with fighting. It's because the league is disciplining dirty play. Recent experience has shown us fairly definitively that strong discipline from the league is several hundred percent more effective in curbing dirty play than fighting. It's done more in a half a month than fighting has in a half a century.

Sorry,but that misconception has been around for years and it was untrue then as it is now.

There is no way to guage respect levels from different eras,but IMO it has been the same from the 70's,80's and such to now.

Players were taking cracks at the likes of Beliveau,Hull,Lemieux,Yzerman,etc..
whenever the opportunity arose.Respect is not on the rise-fear of retribution from Shanahan is on most players minds.

 

[Darkstone42]

Sorry,but that misconception has been around for years and it was untrue then as it is now.

There is no way to guage respect levels from different eras,but IMO it has been the same from the 70's,80's and such to now.

Players were taking cracks at the likes of Beliveau,Hull,Lemieux,Yzerman,etc..
whenever the opportunity arose.Respect is not on the rise-fear of retribution from Shanahan is on most players minds.

They accomplish the same end, don't they? I think the fact that the league is serious about this is starting to at least plant the "respect your coworkers" seed at the very least.

 

[SandyBeach26]

@ PhillyPhaithful...

To some degree, you are right, I believe....true enforcers, or the "thug on skates" no longer has a place in the league.

Just look at what happened to alot of those guys post NHL lock out of 2005. What with the removal of alot of the clutching and grabbing, and more emphasis on hockey ability, unless the enforcer in question had any kind of hockey skills, he no longer had a job with an NHL team.

I support two teams in the NHL: The Lightning and the Wild. Both of these teams put an emphasis on skill and the play, rather than beating up the opposition.
The Lightning do have Steve Downie, whom many dump on because of his past, but Downie is really a talented player, and I give him credit for doing less of the crap barbaric stuff, and more of the skillful stuff...though he certainly can be counted on to stand up for teammates.

And the Wild have Brad Staubitz, who while more of an enforcer than Downie (Downie is more a middle weight....not your classical enforcer), Staubitz still has hockey skills, albeit, he is more a third or fourth liner skills guy.

And while teams like Tampa Bay win with their skill rather than by 'beating on opposing teams', seems to me that when they play a team that DOES go the Neanderthal route, so called "experts" always seem to say..."Well, Tampa just has to get tougher"....hmmm...sounds like talking out of both sides of their heads by some people, eh?

But back to your original point...Yes, guys like Probert, McSorely, Mythres, Debrusk, Poeschek, and Ciccone probably would NOT get a job in today's NHL, simply because they just do not have the hockey skills to offset their fists.
I think the New Age Enforcer is one who can play the game, but still has the qualities of being able to put fear into those that would take liberties with their teams' star players.

G

 

[4thstreet]

They accomplish the same end, don't they? I think the fact that the league is serious about this is starting to at least plant the "respect your coworkers" seed at the very least.

Agreed

I think we can all agree that the day will come when fighting is banned.
For the life of me,I can not see why the NHL brass doesn't automatically give a guy who fights the game(rest of the night off).

If a team knows that their so called ("fighters,goons,etc..) are gone for the night when they scrap,do you really think guys like Shelley,Orr,Konopka,etc..are going to be taking other guys spots?

 

[4thstreet]

@ PhillyPhaithful...

To some degree, you are right, I believe....true enforcers, or the "thug on skates" no longer has a place in the league.

Just look at what happened to alot of those guys post NHL lock out of 2005. What with the removal of alot of the clutching and grabbing, and more emphasis on hockey ability, unless the enforcer in question had any kind of hockey skills, he no longer had a job with an NHL team.

I support two teams in the NHL: The Lightning and the Wild. Both of these teams put an emphasis on skill and the play, rather than beating up the opposition.
The Lightning do have Steve Downie, whom many dump on because of his past, but Downie is really a talented player, and I give him credit for doing less of the crap barbaric stuff, and more of the skillful stuff...though he certainly can be counted on to stand up for teammates.

And the Wild have Brad Staubitz, who while more of an enforcer than Downie (Downie is more a middle weight....not your classical enforcer), Staubitz still has hockey skills, albeit, he is more a third or fourth liner skills guy.

And while teams like Tampa Bay win with their skill rather than by 'beating on opposing teams', seems to me that when they play a team that DOES go the Neanderthal route, so called "experts" always seem to say..."Well, Tampa just has to get tougher"....hmmm...sounds like talking out of both sides of their heads by some people, eh?

But back to your original point...Yes, guys like Probert, McSorely, Mythres, Debrusk, Poeschek, and Ciccone probably would NOT get a job in today's NHL, simply because they just do not have the hockey skills to offset their fists.
I think the New Age Enforcer is one who can play the game, but still has the qualities of being able to put fear into those that would take liberties with their teams' star players.

G

your 1st rep,welcome
upon further review,I,ve given out too much,will get you next time-probably later tonight

 

[flyersfan4706]

They should ban fighting that happens after a solid, clean hit.


Yes you should stand up for Doughty, but nothing wrong happened. You dont fight a guy when he steals the puck or fight the goalie when he makes a save

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

They should ban fighting that happens after a solid, clean hit.


Yes you should stand up for Doughty, but nothing wrong happened. You dont fight a guy when he steals the puck or fight the goalie when he makes a save

That is why they get an instigator. The right call was made here, Penner got a 2 and 10.

It is tough for players when a star gets hit hard, but that is the reason hitting is allowed in hockey. Teammates just have to take it. That is why good open ice hits are a lost art in this league. You can punish a player and no one can do anything about it. If someone wants to hit you back and fight you, they will pay for it.

I commend the refs for using the instigator correctly here, and I only wish more refs would get this call right.

 

[juliansteed]

That is why they get an instigator. The right call was made here, Penner got a 2 and 10.

It is tough for players when a star gets hit hard, but that is the reason hitting is allowed in hockey. Teammates just have to take it. That is why good open ice hits are a lost art in this league. You can punish a player and no one can do anything about it. If someone wants to hit you back and fight you, they will pay for it.

I commend the refs for using the instigator correctly here, and I only wish more refs would get this call right.

Exactly! That is why I think the instigator rule is totally fine and necessary. At least the 2 minute portion. Anything in excess of that is debatable. People who complain about the instigator penalty all the time usually don't understand it. I'm not referring to the poster you were responding to, but a lot of them would tell you out of 1 side of their mouth that they want the NHL to do away with the instigator penalty, and then when a situation like this happens they'd tell you out of the other side of their mouth that the player should get an extra 2 for roughing or something like that. 6 of 1 or half a dozen of the other.

 

[Bizzle McDizzle]

Too many words

Fighting good

 

[SLY]

Too many words

Fighting good

This post is spot on.

 

[forty_three]

As someone who played many years in minor hockey, then coached my cousin's kids for the past 18 years and now coaching my own son in squirts, I have seen first hand why fighting is valuable to the game. The problem with the argument most make is about fighting in the NHL. Fighting is necessary in the game, not just one particular league.

Here's my rationale:
I see a lot of other sports, and even at very young ages, there is a lot of cheap shotting, disrespect, and smack talk. By the time it gets to high school, it is so obnoxious and disgusting the games are hard to watch. A freshman punt returner getting up and dancing after a 5 yard return? Really? Basketball players thumping their chest for completing a task you can train a mouse to do?

Hockey players are generally agreed upon to be the most down to earth and approachable of all athletes, especially at the professional level. And I think that has to do with a few things, and it's not specifically due to fighting. But it's part. Players learn respect straight away. And it might not be specifically because they acted up and got knuckles in the face, although that is certainly a direct deterrent. But it's more. I think back to a game I was playing back in high school. It was a hot game, lots of emotion and energy. Halfway through the first, one of our tougher guys slashed the other team's star and got a ten after running his mouth at the ref after the scrum. In between 1 and 2, he was in the locker room fuming. Our captain told him to chill out, because his attitude was going to get someone else hurt. He came back out in the second and there was a slash on me as I tried to cover a puck and he cleared the net. When play went up ice, he took the kid who slashed me out from behind and got tossed. A few minutes later, their goon NAILED our captain and yelled to him as he got up "Control your dog, asshole". In between 2 and 3, Cap walked into the locker room, right up to our goon and punched him right in the chops. The message was essentially "Don't do that, you put US at risk if you're not out there to answer for yourself."

Goon never did anything like that again.

It's an emotional game, and it's played inside a box on an insanely fast surface. There are simply things the stripes don't see or can't (or won't) control. Self regulation is sometimes the best way. And most kids who grew up playing hockey are more careful with their actions later in life. And self regulation is not specifically fighting. It's checking, hitting, shadowing. Making them feel your presence.

At the NHL level, there's too much outside interference and the purpose of the fight as a disciplinary tool has lost it's purpose. And in the salary cap Era, you are losing the specific Enforcer role. I argue it's less necessary to the game at the NHL level. But still necessary.

The idea is that if you do things that disrespect the game, you get punished. Other pro leagues like the Euro leagues, there is a punishment. It's just different. They punish you on the scoreboard. If you are a cheap shot goon, the game leaves you in the dust.

But think about who are the most flamboyant post goal celebration guys... Most of them are European trained. Ovechkin, Selanne, Jagr...

 

[Automattic]

I didn't read one post in this thread. I just came to ask 46 to fight.

 

[BOSSMANPC]

Welcome to the board Sandy. There is a radio talk show host here in Buffalo named Sandy Beach.

 

[grayghost668]

no,,,,,,in any other sport they would be ejected or fined in hockey,it's a part of the game,in a time when sports are becoming more concerned with concussion this is still allowed,WHY

 

[mbhhofr]

I officiated the game for thirty-five years, at every level. I set a Canadian Jr. record for penalties issued in one game, 448 minutes. I worked NCAA college games where fighting wasn't allowed, but you did have the odd fight. There is no out of bounds in hockey like there is in other sports, where a player can go out of bounds to avoid a hit. The game is played on an enclosed surface with hard boards and glass surrounding it. There is constant flow to the game, with players skating at 20-30 mph, changing on the fly and body checking each other. They skate on a hard ice surface and when body checked, they can lose their balance and slide into the boards, goal post or other players. Players have razor sharp blades on their feet. They carry a stick (club) in their hands. There is a hard rubber disc that travels at speeds of over 100 mph. Players are slashed, elbowed, kneed, charged at and sticks get high.

I don't like fighting in the game, but I can see why fights happen. I've had to break up hundreds of fights over the years. In the NHL, players play for thousands and yes, millions of dollars. It's how they make a living. I've seen a lot of respect for each other disappear over the years. They can put stronger rules in to curb the fighting but they will never get rid of it because of the nature of the game.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

 

[grayghost668]

Bare knuckle boxing was banned in the United States in 1889. It is not banned, in fact praised and promoted in the NHL.


It is barbaric, idiotic and well past the point where it should have been banned.

If they ban fighting, a certain group of players will lose their jobs!?! Yeah....to other ACTUAL HOCKEY players....

Any league that claims to care about player safety and eliminating head shots can not let a circus side show that has no impact on the game continue where violent blows to the head are cheered on.

reps for for a bit of common sense

 

[juliansteed]

I officiated the game for thirty-five years, at every level. I set a Canadian Jr. record for penalties issued in one game, 448 minutes. I worked NCAA college games where fighting wasn't allowed, but you did have the odd fight. There is no out of bounds in hockey like there is in other sports, where a player can go out of bounds to avoid a hit. The game is played on an enclosed surface with hard boards and glass surrounding it. There is constant flow to the game, with players skating at 20-30 mph, changing on the fly and body checking each other. They skate on a hard ice surface and when body checked, they can lose their balance and slide into the boards, goal post or other players. Players have razor sharp blades on their feet. They carry a stick (club) in their hands. There is a hard rubber disc that travels at speeds of over 100 mph. Players are slashed, elbowed, kneed, charged at and sticks get high.

I don't like fighting in the game, but I can see why fights happen. I've had to break up hundreds of fights over the years. In the NHL, players play for thousands and yes, millions of dollars. It's how they make a living. I've seen a lot of respect for each other disappear over the years. They can put stronger rules in to curb the fighting but they will never get rid of it because of the nature of the game.

Agreed. It's pretty much impossible to suggest that it could be completely banned from the game, just like fights happen on rare occasions in pretty much every other sport even when there is no contact. Personally I think an automatic game misconduct would be a reasonable way for both sides to meet in the middle. Within a specified period of time (last 5 or 10 minutes of a game?) that game misconduct would carry over to the next game. Of course the automatic game misconduct should only apply to 2 willing participants and not to both if 1 guy clearly instigated. The other guy should be allowed to defend himself.