Edgar H.O.F Thread

[NWinAZ]

Again, you're making excuses about what Edgar "had to deal with" and not looking at what their actual performance was.

Performance wise, Thomas was better and there's no question. If you post a poll asking that on the MLB general board, Edgar won't win that poll because it won't be groupthink by Mariner fans.

I do think Edgar is a HOFer, but to say he was the greatest hitter of the '90s is homerish when your method is to dismiss stats and add excuses to the mix. Your argument for Edgar being better is based on 'would've, could've' claims.

And it's not like Thomas only has more power...in the '90s, his OBP was 20 points higher.

Your argument for Edgar > Thomas is like saying Mickey Mantle is the best player ever because the other guys didn't have to deal with his knee problems and he couldn't done much more if he didn't have them. Based on hypotheticals without regard to actual performance.

Ya,but Thomas had Nugenix...

And the greatest hitter in the 90's was Griffey so...

 

[StanMarsh51]

And the greatest hitter in the 90's was Griffey so...

I'd say Bonds > Griffey for player of the '90s, but that's another discussion (Bonds offense and baserunning that decade more than overcompensates for him being a LFer).

 

[seahawksfan234]

I'd say Bonds > Griffey for player of the '90s, but that's another discussion (Bonds offense and baserunning that decade more than overcompensates for him being a LFer).

Statistically, I have to agree with you. I'm not surprised Griffey was ranked higher than Bonds though, simply because Griffey was a cultural icon during the 90s and is still widely loved, whereas Bonds was never a very likable guy and he will always have the steroid thing hanging over his head.

 

[NWinAZ]

I'd say Bonds > Griffey for player of the '90s, but that's another discussion (Bonds offense and baserunning that decade more than overcompensates for him being a LFer).

I have read several articles on the top 90's hitters and the top spot is split between the two.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Not a bad week for Edgar Martinez who picks up HOF votes and a Congressional Resolution

as of noon Friday, Martinez is at 86.4 percent with 21.2 percent of all known ballots in.

While there are still somewhere in the neighborhood of 328 ballots that have yet to be turned in and excitement levels may be tempered by the drop in numbers Edgar took when the final ballots came in last year, the numbers so far this year are very different. At the 90 vote mark last year Edgar had been named on 67 percent of the ballots and topped out at around 71 percent at the 150 ballot mark before finishing at 58.6 percent.

With 328 left Edgar would still need about 236 votes (almost 72%) on the remaining ballots. It's an encouraging start but there's still a long way to go.

 

[NWinAZ]

Just some 90's stats.

Top Ave in the 90's (Min. 3000 PA's): Gwynn .344, Piazza .328, Edgar .322, Thomas .320
Top HR's in the 90's: McGwire 405, Griffey 382, Bonds 361, Belle 351
Top RBI's in the 90's: Belle 1099, Griffey 1091, Bonds 1076, Rafael & Juan 1068
Top WAR's in the 90's: Bonds 81.3, Griffey 66.0, Bagwell 56.9, Thomas 53.8 (Edgar 7th 50.3)

 

[NWinAZ]

90's Pitching Stats:

90's Wins: Maddux 176, Glavine 164, Clemens 152, Johnson 150
90's K's: Johnson 2538, Clemens 2101, Cone 1928, Smoltz 1893
90's CG's: Maddux 75, Johnson 65, McDowell 61, K. Brown 58
90's Shutouts: Johnson 25, Clemens 24, Maddux 23, R. Martinez 18
90's WAR: Maddux 69.8, Clemens 63.4, Johnson 55.5, K. Brown 52.8

 

[wazzu31]

I'd say Bonds > Griffey for player of the '90s, but that's another discussion (Bonds offense and baserunning that decade more than overcompensates for him being a LFer).

If we are just talking offense then ya, but overall Griffey would have a slight edge. Bonds was a decent fielder who had speed and a noodle arm. Bonds could've been the greatest of all time because he worked unlike Griffey and I wish he would eventually open up as to why he started juicing. You take steoirds for recovery or to stay relevant (Clemens and McGwire) Bonds was either 1 or 2 for best in the game.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I have read several articles on the top 90's hitters and the top spot is split between the two.

It's definitely an argument where everyone feels one way or the other...

While Griffey has about 20 more HR and 15 more RBI in the decade (really his only advantages offensively), he had almost 500 more at bats, largely due to Bonds being walked a ton (including 250+ IBBs during the '90s. Bonds also stole nearly 350 bases in the '90s at a 78% rate, so he average averaged a 35/35 season during the decade.

That plus the big gap in OPS+ (179 to 152) easily gives the edge for Bonds offensively during the decade. You can give Griffey the nod defensively, but I don't think it was big enough to overcome the gap offensively.

 

[StanMarsh51]

If we are just talking offense then ya, but overall Griffey would have a slight edge. Bonds was a decent fielder who had speed and a noodle arm. Bonds could've been the greatest of all time because he worked unlike Griffey and I wish he would eventually open up as to why he started juicing. You take steoirds for recovery or to stay relevant (Clemens and McGwire) Bonds was either 1 or 2 for best in the game.

The gap defensively in the '90s isn't big enough to overcome the gap offensively imo.

Looking at some offensive metrics, Bonds had a 18% lead in OPS+ and 23% lead in oWAR during the decade. Griffey would have to be miles better defensively to make up that gap, and I don't think he was, since Bonds had a +108 FRAA in the '90s, which is quite good for any position (while he was a LFer, he had more range and was better defensively than a large portion of CFers).

 

[SeattleCoug]

It's definitely an argument where everyone feels one way or the other...

While Griffey has about 20 more HR and 15 more RBI in the decade (really his only advantages offensively), he had almost 500 more at bats, largely due to Bonds being walked a ton (including 250+ IBBs during the '90s. .

Pretty crazy to think about considering Jr. missed time with injuries. I really don't think you can go wrong with either although its tough not to be bias.

 

[navamind]

The gap defensively in the '90s isn't big enough to overcome the gap offensively imo.

Looking at some offensive metrics, Bonds had a 18% lead in OPS+ and 23% lead in oWAR during the decade. Griffey would have to be miles better defensively to make up that gap, and I don't think he was, since Bonds had a +108 FRAA in the '90s, which is quite good for any position (while he was a LFer, he had more range and was better defensively than a large portion of CFers).

yeah, I don't get this. Bonds was a great fielder for the first half or so of his career. In fact, going by Rfield Barry blows Griffey away (+175 runs to +3). Griffey's defense fell off a cliff after leaving Seattle. Barry was still a passable defender until his last year or so.

Bonds also stole way more bases and at a more successful rate.

 

[navamind]

got a feeling that he will fall just short this year, unfortunately.

 

[SeattleCoug]

got a feeling that he will fall just short this year, unfortunately.

Man if it played out like that I may actually weep although it would put a bow on this great Mariners offseason

 

[navamind]

Man if it played out like that I may actually weep although it would put a bow on this great Mariners offseason

that would really suck. I just don't get the people that bitch about DHs and then advocate for a relief pitcher to be in the HOF. I don't get the rationale at all.

 

[unlvmariners]

got a feeling that he will fall just short this year, unfortunately.

I want to know who threw a vote at Moyer?

 

[wazzu31]

The gap defensively in the '90s isn't big enough to overcome the gap offensively imo.

Looking at some offensive metrics, Bonds had a 18% lead in OPS+ and 23% lead in oWAR during the decade. Griffey would have to be miles better defensively to make up that gap, and I don't think he was, since Bonds had a +108 FRAA in the '90s, which is quite good for any position (while he was a LFer, he had more range and was better defensively than a large portion of CFers).

The gap between Griffey and Bonds defensively is like you against a toddler. Bonds was Johnny Damon with a last name.

Offensively, both were studs in different ways. But comparing the two, if you are going to have a legitimate argument between the two it's 1990 to 96. Every thing else with Bonds the rest of his career is massively tainted as he went the Roger Clemens route.

Stolen bases are amazing, but on the double Edgar hit, Bonds would've been out by yards as opposed to Griffey.

 

[StanMarsh51]

The gap between Griffey and Bonds defensively is like you against a toddler. Bonds was Johnny Damon with a last name.

Offensively, both were studs in different ways. But comparing the two, if you are going to have a legitimate argument between the two it's 1990 to 96. Every thing else with Bonds the rest of his career is massively tainted as he went the Roger Clemens route.

Stolen bases are amazing, but on the double Edgar hit, Bonds would've been out by yards as opposed to Griffey.

1) From the timeframe that's been claimed, Bonds started roiding after the 1999 season when he was hurt, so not sure why you're using only 1990-1996

2) Every defensive metric out there would say you're wrong about saying Bonds was Johnny Damon defensively

3) Like your homerish arguments for Edgar, you're using hypotheticals with nothing to back it up...luckily, we have baserunning stats to quantify these types of things, and there's nothing to suggest that Griffey was better at scoring while on base....for starters, Bonds had more instances of scoring from 1st on a double and scoring from 2nd on a single than Griffey in the '90s...

Barry Bonds Batting Stats | Baseball-Reference.com
Ken Griffey Batting Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[FirebreathingMonkey]

With 328 left Edgar would still need about 236 votes (almost 72%) on the remaining ballots. It's an encouraging start but there's still a long way to go.

Ya that was a long time ago and it was only the known count as it was on that day, it has since been updated, as on Jan 22

Below is live total of the ballots released thus far that will continue to update.

Total votes: 161
Total ballots: 202
Percentage: 79.7%
vs. 2017: +21 votes

Track Edgar Martinez’s 2018 Hall of Fame vote count

 

[Msfann]

I'm a Mariners fan so I'm preparing myself for a kick in the nads. When was the last time anything good happened for the Mariners fans?

Good luck Edgar! Hopefully we'll have some good news tomorrow.