Edgar H.O.F Thread

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm okay with 10 votes per voter.

but Edgar would definitely be in my ten.

Did you make your list or you just assuming?? I don't think he would be on my list. But he might since I do think he is REALLY close. But I do remember making a list for the 2015 hofer and he was not on that one.

 

[broncosmitty]

he played 3b. 3b gets more positional bonus points than 1b. So that is one reason his WAR compares so well. Also the reason why Pujols has a higher WAR than jimmy foxx.

He played 564 games at third.

I'm thinking his status as the third best OBP Alltime for a right handed hitter might be at play a little more than his time at third.

Pujols has started at first in over 80% of his games. Would the sprinkling of LF, 3rd and DH sway his WAR that much?

 

[broncosmitty]

Did you make your list or you just assuming?? I don't think he would be on my list. But he might since I do think he is REALLY close. But I do remember making a list for the 2015 hofer and he was not on that one.

Haven't made it, but he wouldn't be on the outside looking in on account of me.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He played 564 games at third.

I'm thinking his status as the third best OBP Alltime for a right handed hitter might be at play a little more than his time at third.

Pujols has started at first in over 80% of his games. Would the sprinkling of LF, 3rd and DH sway his WAR that much?

Not that much. But it does affect it. That's really why I hate WAR. positional value is put into oWAR. I wish oWAR was only about offense.

 

[dude82]

I like the rule of 10 actually... If a player is outside of your top 10 then he should not be HOF anyway...

I do think he is close, i just dont think he is there... And i dont see how you have him as a top 5 hitter of the 80's or the 90's... or even just in his window...

Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey JR, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Chipper Jones, Manny Ramirez were all better offensively than Martinez was...

I did not count Jim Thome or Mark McGwire, but they had better Best seasons...

I counted Bagwell and Boggs, but i can see an argument for Edgar to be better with the bat...

So at best Edgar was the 8th Best offensive bat of his time...

A few of those guys had a PED cloud hanging over their heads at some point during their careers, so their numbers are generally taken with a grain of salt. The only people I've heard who thought Edgar was taking PEDs are people who think everyone from that era took them. So, if you take guys like Bonds, Ramirez and, to a certain extent, Bagwell out of the mix, Edgar suddenly becomes one of the 5 best hitters of his era according to your list. Hell, even if we kept him as one of the 8 best hitters of his era, if the other 7 are either in the Hall of Fame, are about to be in the Hall of Fame or (allegedly) juiced their way out of consideration for the Hall of Fame, why does Edgar still get left out in the cold when, if you put his numbers up against other players who have been in the Hall of Fame beyond his own era, he stacks up pretty well? Just because there were, in your estimation, 7 better hitters in his era, that doesn't preclude him from being one of the best hitters of all-time. It just means that the other 7 guys on your list also had numbers comparable to those put up by Hall of Famers from other eras. Is it written somewhere that every era can have no more than "x" number of all-time greats?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

A few of those guys had a PED cloud hanging over their heads at some point during their careers, so their numbers are generally taken with a grain of salt. The only people I've heard who thought Edgar was taking PEDs are people who think everyone from that era took them. So, if you take guys like Bonds, Ramirez and, to a certain extent, Bagwell out of the mix, Edgar suddenly becomes one of the 5 best hitters of his era according to your list. Hell, even if we kept him as one of the 8 best hitters of his era, if the other 7 are either in the Hall of Fame, are about to be in the Hall of Fame or (allegedly) juiced their way out of consideration for the Hall of Fame, why does Edgar still get left out in the cold when, if you put his numbers up against other players who have been in the Hall of Fame beyond his own era, he stacks up pretty well? Just because there were, in your estimation, 7 better hitters in his era, that doesn't preclude him from being one of the best hitters of all-time. It just means that the other 7 guys on your list also had numbers comparable to those put up by Hall of Famers from other eras. Is it written somewhere that every era can have no more than "x" number of all-time greats?

yes and no... there is a point where if there are so many good hitters, you look down on the period for pitching... and vice versa... there is a stat in baseball references called AIR, it attempts to measure this.... Seems like it does a fair attempt as it is based on league OBP and SLG... Anything over 100 is hitters advantage, anything less than 100 is pitching... Edgar has a career 105, and only played 5 seasons under 100(2 of those seasons had under 200 PA). And played 6 seasons 110 or higher(2 seasons LESS than 600 PA)...

Now, i am not claiming to punish him for this, but he should also not get rewarded for the era he played in...

Even if we said he was the 6th best bat of his era, we could agree that there are at least 4 players who were just as good... But again that is only with the bat, then there is base running, and defense...

also, every year there are new eligible players(from new eras who need to be judged slightly different), and that includes pitchers...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

my list for 2017: IN order

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Tim Raines
4. Bagwell
5. Ivan Rodriguez
6. Curt schilling
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Billy Wagner
9. Trevor Hoffman


I will give you that i am not sure who my 10 is it is between Edgar, Mussina, Walker, Vlad... I am iffy on all 4 of them...

It will be interesting once the first steroid player gets in whether they reopen it up for players like Mark McGwire....

 

[dude82]

my list for 2017: IN order

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Tim Raines
4. Bagwell
5. Ivan Rodriguez
6. Curt schilling
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Billy Wagner
9. Trevor Hoffman


I will give you that i am not sure who my 10 is it is between Edgar, Mussina, Walker, Vlad... I am iffy on all 4 of them...

It will be interesting once the first steroid player gets in whether they reopen it up for players like Mark McGwire....

I think Raines and Hoffman probably get in next year. It looks like Bagwell should too despite the PED suspicions people have about him. They were all really close to getting voted in this year and unless something weird happens, I can't imagine that they won't get the extra 5-10% of the vote that they need to get in. I think Wagner deserves it as much as Hoffman does, but he needs to make up significantly more ground than Hoffman does for some reason, so it's gonna take him a few more years to get in, but I do think he'll get in.

Bonds and Clemens were the best players involved in the PED scandal and if you'd asked me a couple of years ago about their chances of getting in, I'd have given them no chance in hell as long as the Baseball Writers were the ones voting, but they each still have 6 years left and they're both above 40% already, so they have a significantly better chance than I ever gave them to get in within the 10 year window. I thought the fact that they were the biggest names in that scandal would work against them since I think it was pretty well established before the scandal happened that they were both destined for the Hall of Fame anyway and didn't need the help to get there.

Ramirez actually got suspended for PEDs, but he apologized and took responsibility, so having thought twice about it, he might actually get in despite all that. It might take a while, but I at least think he has a shot to get in at some point now. I don't remember if Pudge was ever named on any lists or accused or just generally suspected to have taken PEDs or not. If not, he's got the resume of a Hall of Famer and should get in within the 10 year window.

If Schilling can keep out of trouble, he's got 6 years of eligibility and 2/3rds of the necessary votes already, so I suspect he'll get in within the 10 year window as well. His regular season numbers weren't spectacular, but it's hard to ignore his postseason work.

McGwire ran out of time on the writers' ballot I can't see him going back on the writers' ballot if a suspected or confirmed PED user eventually gets in, so it'll be up to the veterans committee to decide his Hall of Fame credentials.

I just think that, of the players who are eligible for the HOF and who were never widely suspected of PED use, Edgar is being significantly overlooked and I think his being a DH for the bulk of his career has almost everything to do with it. He's got the numbers when compared to other Hall of Famers, but he's got 3 years left on the ballot and a lot of ground to make up, which is ridiculous.

 

[wazzu31]

I don't get how someone could ever say Wagner and Hoffman are HOF worthy yet Edgar is not a slam dunk. Saves are just another stat of longevity, which is double hypocritical towards the Edgar debate, he has the longevity case against him and the specialist case against him yet somehow a closer is somehow worthy? Let alone Edgar was one of the better hitters in the game with bum legs and an eye condition that A. Would not allow for suspicion of steroids B. Would've ended most baseball players careers.

 

[wazzu31]

I heard the other day that judging by WAR and OPS+(two stats that aren't my cup of tea, but I'm using them here anyway.) Edgar would be the 11th best 1st baseman in the HOF.

Sure, he isn't a 1st baseman, but that says something about him as a hitter.

And I don't think Hank Greenberg, George Sisler, Willie McCovey or Frank Thomas got in because of their gloves.

Grasping at straws for an argument here but of those guys mentioned above 3 were 5 tool guys, which is rare to have guys like Bonds, Griffey and Ramirez all playing at once, then you have dudes who were products of steroids and ballparks and finally Edgar protected 3 guys who had career years (ARod pre steroids had a damn near triple crown) in Griffey, ARod and Boone (even with steroids) stats are fine and dandy but either make them uniform or use them as a guideline in which Edgar would be in over several players.

 

[broncosmitty]

my list for 2017: IN order

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Tim Raines
4. Bagwell
5. Ivan Rodriguez
6. Curt schilling
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Billy Wagner
9. Trevor Hoffman


I will give you that i am not sure who my 10 is it is between Edgar, Mussina, Walker, Vlad... I am iffy on all 4 of them...

It will be interesting once the first steroid player gets in whether they reopen it up for players like Mark McGwire....

Three of those Nine wouldn't be in my Top Ten.

And I'm not sure Big Mac is in my HOF. But I'd give him and Sosa a nice little section, if it were up to me. Just not a plaque.

Top Five is prolly the same. All of em did drugs.

 

[blstoker]

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Tim Raines
4. Bagwell
5. Ivan Rodriguez
6. Curt schilling
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Billy Wagner
9. Trevor Hoffman

The fact that you have Schilling on the list while claiming that Edgar didn't do enough to get in is what is laughable.

 

[StanMarsh51]

If Schilling can keep out of trouble, he's got 6 years of eligibility and 2/3rds of the necessary votes already, so I suspect he'll get in within the 10 year window as well. His regular season numbers weren't spectacular, but it's hard to ignore his postseason work.

I think Schilling's regular season career was very underrated, largely because he won just 216 games (partially hurt by him playing alongside some weak Phillies' offenses) and no Cy awards (although finished runner up 3x).

He also had a 9 year stretch where he averaged:
.635 win %, 141 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 223 IP, 236K

By comparison, Felix in his last 9 years has (just for a basis of comparison) a 131 ERA+, 1.16 WHIP and 210 K's averaged over his last 9 season....so that's how good Schilling was.



WAR has him among the top 30 pitchers ever, and his career numbers are very comparable to a guy like Smoltz, who was considered an easy 1st ballot choice.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think Schilling's regular season career was very underrated, largely because he won just 216 games (partially hurt by him playing alongside some weak Phillies' offenses) and no Cy awards (although finished runner up 3x).

He also had a 9 year stretch where he averaged:
.635 win %, 141 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 223 IP, 236K

By comparison, Felix in his last 9 years has (just for a basis of comparison) a 131 ERA+, 1.16 WHIP and 210 K's averaged over his last 9 season....so that's how good Schilling was.



WAR has him among the top 30 pitchers ever, and his career numbers are very comparable to a guy like Smoltz, who was considered an easy 1st ballot choice.

Schilling's regular season numbers are under-rated... BUT he really made his name in the playoffs... and I am not ONLY talking about the bloody sock...

 

[blstoker]

I think Schilling's regular season career was very underrated, largely because he won just 216 games (partially hurt by him playing alongside some weak Phillies' offenses) and no Cy awards (although finished runner up 3x).

He also had a 9 year stretch where he averaged:
.635 win %, 141 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 223 IP, 236K

By comparison, Felix in his last 9 years has (just for a basis of comparison) a 131 ERA+, 1.16 WHIP and 210 K's averaged over his last 9 season....so that's how good Schilling was.



WAR has him among the top 30 pitchers ever, and his career numbers are very comparable to a guy like Smoltz, who was considered an easy 1st ballot choice.

Exactly - there's always a way to justify the stats for the guy you want.

 

[dude82]

I think Schilling's regular season career was very underrated, largely because he won just 216 games (partially hurt by him playing alongside some weak Phillies' offenses) and no Cy awards (although finished runner up 3x).

He also had a 9 year stretch where he averaged:
.635 win %, 141 ERA+, 1.08 WHIP, 223 IP, 236K

By comparison, Felix in his last 9 years has (just for a basis of comparison) a 131 ERA+, 1.16 WHIP and 210 K's averaged over his last 9 season....so that's how good Schilling was.



WAR has him among the top 30 pitchers ever, and his career numbers are very comparable to a guy like Smoltz, who was considered an easy 1st ballot choice.

I think Smoltz's case was made better by the fact that he was part of those dominant 90's Braves rotations. Also helping his case was his ability to come back after missing an entire season due to injury and rack up some pretty impressive numbers as a closer before sliding back into the rotation in his late 30's and early 40's to put up respectable numbers for a few years as a starter for the second time. The heavy national exposure that team got thanks to being on TBS for years and years also kept his name in the front of the voters' minds.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Maybe time to revive this thread

 

[SeattleCoug]

I still think he likely falls short this year but hopeful for 2019

 

[Podunkparte]

I still think he likely falls short this year but hopeful for 2019

He was right around 75% a few days ago before that tweet you posted. I think it'll be close but he has a good shot this year.

 

[FirebreathingMonkey]

Not a bad week for Edgar Martinez who picks up HOF votes and a Congressional Resolution

as of noon Friday, Martinez is at 86.4 percent with 21.2 percent of all known ballots in.

While there are still somewhere in the neighborhood of 328 ballots that have yet to be turned in and excitement levels may be tempered by the drop in numbers Edgar took when the final ballots came in last year, the numbers so far this year are very different. At the 90 vote mark last year Edgar had been named on 67 percent of the ballots and topped out at around 71 percent at the 150 ballot mark before finishing at 58.6 percent.