Edgar H.O.F Thread

[navamind]

He should absolutely be in. Yes, before Ortiz. Not only does Edgar boast better career stats, but some of Edgar's best seasons actually came as a 3rd baseman. Ortiz didn't do much of anything prior to being traded to the Sox. Edgar was a fine defensive 3B IMO.

 

[navamind]

1- Home runs are over rated. Dave Kingman hit 442 and he is an average player at best.

While it's true Kingman was an average player at best, it was because he wasn't particularly good at anything else. That doesn't make home runs overrated. A home run is a guaranteed run. They're the most valuable event in a baseball game. FFS, he was a corner OF/INF with a .302 OBP. That's pretty bad in any era.

 

[NWinAZ]

While it's true Kingman was an average player at best, it was because he wasn't particularly good at anything else. That doesn't make home runs overrated. A home run is a guaranteed run. They're the most valuable event in a baseball game. FFS, he was a corner OF/INF with a .302 OBP. That's pretty bad in any era.

While home runs are worth a run, they also generally end rallies. They also come with a price and that is a lot of K's. No, I will stick with home runs being overrated. They are fun to see, but overrated.

And I am actually old enough to have seen Kingman play. He was a one trick pony. Ortiz is by far a better overall hitter, but point was not to let home runs be his resume for the hall. Let his overall skill set (on offense) be.

 

[Cedrique]

Touchdowns are overrated too. You could have a great drive going and then some clown scores a touchdown and kills the drive.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

While home runs are worth a run, they also generally end rallies. They also come with a price and that is a lot of K's. No, I will stick with home runs being overrated. They are fun to see, but overrated.

And I am actually old enough to have seen Kingman play. He was a one trick pony. Ortiz is by far a better overall hitter, but point was not to let home runs be his resume for the hall. Let his overall skill set (on offense) be.

now you are getting 2 things confused... being a HR hitter is a skill, being a contact hitter is also a skill... many players have both skills... they are not dependent on eachother... Its more that there are players like Kingman, Mark Reynolds and others who are ONLY HR guys... but that doesn't weaken the HR...

 

[navamind]

While home runs are worth a run, they also generally end rallies. They also come with a price and that is a lot of K's. No, I will stick with home runs being overrated. They are fun to see, but overrated.

And I am actually old enough to have seen Kingman play. He was a one trick pony. Ortiz is by far a better overall hitter, but point was not to let home runs be his resume for the hall. Let his overall skill set (on offense) be.

lol

 

[StanMarsh51]

While home runs are worth a run, they also generally end rallies. They also come with a price and that is a lot of K's. No, I will stick with home runs being overrated. They are fun to see, but overrated.

And I am actually old enough to have seen Kingman play. He was a one trick pony. Ortiz is by far a better overall hitter, but point was not to let home runs be his resume for the hall. Let his overall skill set (on offense) be.

A home run is the single best outcome for a hitter in any plate appearance. Trying to 'keep a rally going' by getting a single/double where you could potentially be stranded on base should never be seen as more beneficial than hitting a HR.

 

[wazzu31]

The whole Edgar thing is so hypocritical, they have guys in the HOF who are only there for longevity and defense, Edgar is the essential Sandy Koufax of hitting where circumstances should only allow you to look at the peak years of his career instead of comparing their numbers to a guy who started for 20 years.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The whole Edgar thing is so hypocritical, they have guys in the HOF who are only there for longevity and defense, Edgar is the essential Sandy Koufax of hitting where circumstances should only allow you to look at the peak years of his career instead of comparing their numbers to a guy who started for 20 years.

I understand you think he belongs, but calling him the sandy Koufax of hitting is a joke...
He only lead MLB once in OBP,BA and OPS... and was top 10, 9 times(OBP),4 times(BA), 5 times(OPS)... That is all great, but certainly not Koufax-esque...

 

[NWinAZ]

A home run is the single best outcome for a hitter in any plate appearance. Trying to 'keep a rally going' by getting a single/double where you could potentially be stranded on base should never be seen as more beneficial than hitting a HR.

You have watched too many Mariners games. Some teams actually put multiple hits together and keep innings alive while actually scoring w/o use of home run. It also puts more pressure on pitchers with runners n base and makes pitchers use more pitches.

So how did Jack's 'Powerball' work out?

Mariners hit 198 homers (5th) while Royals hit 139 (24th). Ya, please keep explaining to me how the home run is the almighty stat.

 

[dude82]

I don't know why, but baseball seems to be the only sport that, in order to be considered an all-time great by some people, you have to have at least played on offense and defense for the bulk of your career even if you were only exceptional at one or the other. If voters are willing to overlook what a player did on one side of the ball because of how exceptional that player was on the other side, couldn't they apply the same principles when voting for a DH? Instead, they seem to want to focus more on what that DH didn't do than on what they did do. It's a double standard I think.

 

[broncosmitty]

Thomas was only 520 PA's at DH less than Edgar which is not even a full season difference.

And I think Frank is soMe times still underrated. Even though he was a first ballot guy.

Edgar is definitely deserving of a spot in Cooperstown. I'm not sure he deserves to get in before a couple of other guys who are still waiting. But he's a HOFer for sure.

I haven't had the chance to see many right handed hitters who Id consider better than Martinez.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You have watched too many Mariners games. Some teams actually put multiple hits together and keep innings alive while actually scoring w/o use of home run. It also puts more pressure on pitchers with runners n base and makes pitchers use more pitches.

So how did Jack's 'Powerball' work out?

Mariners hit 198 homers (5th) while Royals hit 139 (24th). Ya, please keep explaining to me how the home run is the almighty stat.

You're seriously going to argue that a homerun is not the single best outcome for a hitter? Maybe the M's weren't as good as the Royals because they didn't do much the other times at the plate (when there wasn't a HR), but each individual time at the plate, there's no logical argument that a HR isn't the single best outcome.


Your pitches argument makes no sense either...
Sequence A: double, double, HR, then the pitcher gets 3 straight outs
Sequence B: double, double, double, then the pitcher gets 3 straight outs

In either scenario the pitcher faced the same amount of batters, correct? You simply can't presume that the next hitters up can keep a rally going, just like you can't presume the guys behind the player who hit a HR will get on base to keep the inning going.

 

[wazzu31]

I understand you think he belongs, but calling him the sandy Koufax of hitting is a joke...
He only lead MLB once in OBP,BA and OPS... and was top 10, 9 times(OBP),4 times(BA), 5 times(OPS)... That is all great, but certainly not Koufax-esque...

I'm not saying he was the most dominant baseball player for 5 years like Koufax but the knock on Edgar is he doesn't have the career numbers, so it's hypocritical to me that longevity is a criteria for Edgar but not all

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't know why, but baseball seems to be the only sport that, in order to be considered an all-time great by some people, you have to have at least played on offense and defense for the bulk of your career even if you were only exceptional at one or the other. If voters are willing to overlook what a player did on one side of the ball because of how exceptional that player was on the other side, couldn't they apply the same principles when voting for a DH? Instead, they seem to want to focus more on what that DH didn't do than on what they did do. It's a double standard I think.

Just wondering, where would you rank Edgar compared to all the other offensive players who played during his time... I dont think he is top 5... and that's kind of the point... If your not top 5 then how exceptional were you???

 

[dude82]

And I think Frank is soMe times still underrated. Even though he was a first ballot guy.

Edgar is definitely deserving of a spot in Cooperstown. I'm not sure he deserves to get in before a couple of other guys who are still waiting. But he's a HOFer for sure.

I haven't had the chance to see many right handed hitters who Id consider better than Martinez.

The problem is that he's running out of time and as long as enough people keep voting for players who they think deserve it before Edgar and for first ballot nominees who also deserve it, they're gonna keep running out of spots for Edgar. That's why the Rule of 10 has to go. Voters should be able to vote for however many players they think deserve it and not be limited to 10 spots.

Just wondering, where would you rank Edgar compared to all the other offensive players who played during his time... I dont think he is top 5... and that's kind of the point... If your not top 5 then how exceptional were you???

I'd put him in my top 5, yes, but my opinion doesn't matter quite as much as the opinion of the pitchers who had to face him. Quite a few pitchers from that era, including some greats who are either in the Hall already or will be, have stated that he's the best right-handed hitter they ever faced. Also, for an era defined and dominated by the home run, Edgar was a complete hitter. He could hit for power, hit for average and hit in clutch situations. You can ask the Yankees about that last one.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The problem is that he's running out of time and as long as enough people keep voting for players who they think deserve it before Edgar and for first ballot nominees who also deserve it, they're gonna keep running out of spots for Edgar. That's why the Rule of 10 has to go. Voters should be able to vote for however many players they think deserve it and not be limited to 10 spots.



I'd put him in my top 5, yes, but my opinion doesn't matter quite as much as the opinion of the pitchers who had to face him. Quite a few pitchers from that era, including some greats who are either in the Hall already or will be, have stated that he's the best right-handed hitter they ever faced. Also, for an era defined and dominated by the home run, Edgar was a complete hitter. He could hit for power, hit for average and hit in clutch situations. You can ask the Yankees about that last one.

I like the rule of 10 actually... If a player is outside of your top 10 then he should not be HOF anyway...

I do think he is close, i just dont think he is there... And i dont see how you have him as a top 5 hitter of the 80's or the 90's... or even just in his window...

Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey JR, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Chipper Jones, Manny Ramirez were all better offensively than Martinez was...

I did not count Jim Thome or Mark McGwire, but they had better Best seasons...

I counted Bagwell and Boggs, but i can see an argument for Edgar to be better with the bat...

So at best Edgar was the 8th Best offensive bat of his time...

 

[broncosmitty]

I like the rule of 10 actually... If a player is outside of your top 10 then he should not be HOF anyway...

I do think he is close, i just dont think he is there... And i dont see how you have him as a top 5 hitter of the 80's or the 90's... or even just in his window...

Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey JR, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Chipper Jones, Manny Ramirez were all better offensively than Martinez was...

I did not count Jim Thome or Mark McGwire, but they had better Best seasons...

I counted Bagwell and Boggs, but i can see an argument for Edgar to be better with the bat...

So at best Edgar was the 8th Best offensive bat of his time...

I heard the other day that judging by WAR and OPS+(two stats that aren't my cup of tea, but I'm using them here anyway.) Edgar would be the 11th best 1st baseman in the HOF.

Sure, he isn't a 1st baseman, but that says something about him as a hitter.

And I don't think Hank Greenberg, George Sisler, Willie McCovey or Frank Thomas got in because of their gloves.

 

[broncosmitty]

The problem is that he's running out of time and as long as enough people keep voting for players who they think deserve it before Edgar and for first ballot nominees who also deserve it, they're gonna keep running out of spots for Edgar. That's why the Rule of 10 has to go. Voters should be able to vote for however many players they think deserve it and not be limited to 10 spots.



I'd put him in my top 5, yes, but my opinion doesn't matter quite as much as the opinion of the pitchers who had to face him. Quite a few pitchers from that era, including some greats who are either in the Hall already or will be, have stated that he's the best right-handed hitter they ever faced. Also, for an era defined and dominated by the home run, Edgar was a complete hitter. He could hit for power, hit for average and hit in clutch situations. You can ask the Yankees about that last one.

I'm okay with 10 votes per voter.

but Edgar would definitely be in my ten.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I heard the other day that judging by WAR and OPS+(two stats that aren't my cup of tea, but I'm using them here anyway.) Edgar would be the 11th best 1st baseman in the HOF.

Sure, he isn't a 1st baseman, but that says something about him as a hitter.

And I don't think Hank Greenberg, George Sisler, Willie McCovey or Frank Thomas got in because of their gloves.

he played 3b. 3b gets more positional bonus points than 1b. So that is one reason his WAR compares so well. Also the reason why Pujols has a higher WAR than jimmy foxx.