Donald Fehr & NHLPA want to eliminate fighting

[pixburgher66]

Which filters down to the lower levels as well. Lots of players turn to fighting b/c while they are good, they can't make it unless they are willing to do certain things. Take away that prize at the top level, and you don't have people "training" for that role in the minors/juniors.

Which in turn adds more talent to a roster. Seriously, the Pens employ Steve freaking MacIntyre. They actually RE-SIGNED him. Those guys filter out of the league, and it's a more exciting game (okay, a bit of a stretch, but still). Look, I agree that those moments when someone drops the gloves unexpectedly are awesome, but the risks involved are too great. Eventually people decided watching gladiators get mauled was a bit barbaric, right? Not saying these guys are killing themselves...but post-concussion syndrome is simply put: a bitch. So is addiction to analgesics. And depression. And constant headaches. And personality changes. And irritability. That crap tears up families.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I know I'm sick of Ryan Miller always fighting people like Milan Lucic and getting concussions and shit, but hey, Ryan is just being Ryan.

 

[elocomotive]

If 98% of the players want to keep fighting in the game, who are we to tell them they can't, when it has been part of the game for so long?

Few kids like eating their vegetables, but it's their parents job to make them. Neither blacks nor whites wanted integration of schools across the South, but thank goodness some leaders decided that was fucking stupid.

History/life is loaded with things that were wrong that the "participants" thought were just fine. It's the charge of the people that run things to figure out when those things are out of whack. The players have both an emotional attachment to the pride of hockey in which fighting is interwoven and know no other way. Sometimes change rises from the bottom, but sometimes it has to come from the top.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Few kids like eating their vegetables, but it's their parents job to make them. Neither blacks nor whites wanted integration of schools across the South, but thank goodness some leaders decided that was fucking stupid.

Are here I thought I was the one being dramatic.

 

[elocomotive]

Which in turn adds more talent to a roster. Seriously, the Pens employ Steve freaking MacIntyre. They actually RE-SIGNED him. Those guys filter out of the league, and it's a more exciting game (okay, a bit of a stretch, but still). Look, I agree that those moments when someone drops the gloves unexpectedly are awesome, but the risks involved are too great. Eventually people decided watching gladiators get mauled was a bit barbaric, right? Not saying these guys are killing themselves...but post-concussion syndrome is simply put: a bitch. So is addiction to analgesics. And depression. And constant headaches. And personality changes. And irritability. That crap tears up families.

As IPW noted, the refs won't let the players kill each other. But they also aren't medical personnel with an understanding or a concern for those long-term issues.


I have a question for everyone - regardless, of your feeling/position on the issue, do you honestly believe fighting will still be allowed in hockey 20 years from now?

I can't even imagine it still be part of the game in 10.

 

[elocomotive]

Are here I thought I was the one being dramatic.

Nobody is suggesting fighting in hockey is as important as racial integration, just making a point that because something is popular does not make it right.

But go ahead and mock... it's what you do.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Nobody is suggesting fighting in hockey is as important as racial integration, just making a point that because something is popular does not make it right.

But go ahead and mock... it's what you do.

Aw, c'mon now....don't be that way. I just found the comparisson to be funny is all.

Fact remains that if you remove fighting from the sport, you are still going to have injuries and concussions. What type of descrease are we really talking about here, and is it enough to piss off the players and fans?

Then what happens after that? Someone is going to complaing about something else, so we change another thing, and another, and another, till the players just show up to have an eye staring contest.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Ok, here is another look at why fighting is necessary in Hockey, and why I think the majority of players want to keep it.

It keeps players in check, and changes the momentum of the game. You can make all the rule changes you want, but the one thing you can't change or get rid of is human emotion.

Look at baseball and football, they don't allow fighting like hockey does, but where does that get you? The players find other ways of dealing with situations themselves that are even worse that just letting them fight it out.

In baseball you have the pitcher trying to decapitate another player by intentionally throwing the ball at him. I mean for fuck's sake, that's a weapon traveling over 80+ miles with the sole purpose to injure another human being who's not even expecting it.

In football, you have bounties issued to take out another player and cause injury as a means of a payback. Not too mention players will gouge eyes, punch ribs, and stop on hands when they are in a pile.

No sport is exempt from letting emotions get in the way, but at least when 2 players fight in Hockey, you can count on 3 things:

1) Both players agree to fight one another, and know what's coming.
2) Refs stay close to make sure nothing gets out of hand or a player isn't getting killed when he's in a vulnerable state.
3) Players and teammates learn the value of respect and how to handle their emotions in a controlled environment.

Like I said, this is just my opinion, but I think out of most sports, Hockey is doing it the right way.

 

[LeaderOCola]

Is he trying to beat Goodell in the "commish who killed a sport" race?

 

[IPostedWhat]

Eventually people decided watching gladiators get mauled was a bit barbaric, right?

No, people loved watching it, but when Roman Emperor Constantine I converted to Christianity and freely allowed it, that put an end to it.

"in times in which peace and peace relating to domestic affairs prevail, bloody demonstrations displease us. Therefore we order that there may be no more gladiator combats. Those, who were condemned to become gladiators for their crimes, are to work from now on in the mines. Thus they pay for their crimes, without having to pour their blood."

Basically, he made the sport boring and people stopped showing up to watch.

I bet you if they brought back Gladiator Games where people actually were killed, it would be more popular than Running man.

 

[LeaderOCola]

No, people loved watching it, but when Roman Emperor Constantine I converted to Christianity and freely allowed it, that put an end to it.

"in times in which peace and peace relating to domestic affairs prevail, bloody demonstrations displease us. Therefore we order that there may be no more gladiator combats. Those, who were condemned to become gladiators for their crimes, are to work from now on in the mines. Thus they pay for their crimes, without having to pour their blood."

Basically, he made the sport boring and people stopped showing up to watch.

I bet you if they brought back Gladiator Games where people actually were killed, it would be more popular than Running man.

 

[Comeds]

C'mon don't any of you want to watch Cherry blame the first big injury in the post fighting era, no matter how it occurred, on fighting being removed?

 

[Dacks]

I'm pretty sure there are other sports with the potential for violent and dirty plays that curb them just fine without needing players to police themselves. It's a really baseless argument.

 

[puckhead]

Nobody is suggesting fighting in hockey is as important as racial integration, just making a point that because something is popular does not make it right..

The headline said Fehr and the NHLPA wanted fighting gone.
I mentioned that no, the players overwhelmingly did NOT want fighting gone, and IPW kindly found the backing statistics.
Whether fighting should be in the game is a concurrent argument, but the point of the stat was to show the headline was 98% wrong

I'm pretty sure there are other sports with the potential for violent and dirty plays that curb them just fine without needing players to police themselves. It's a really baseless argument.

The only one I can think of is rugby. And that's because I am not wellversed enough to notice the dirty shit that may go on in the scrums. Most sports that involve contact need an outlet. Allowing you to face the person who needs the correction directly seems like a pretty good idea to end disputes immediately. Problems occur when bad feelings stew. In hockey and in life.

 

[forty_three]

What I've never understood is this. Why is fear of penalties, suspensions, and fines enough to deter a would-be instigator but not enough to deter someone from committing a cheap-shot?

I think if fighting is to stay in the game that the instigator needs to stay too. I personally think it's the most misunderstood rule in hockey. The intent isn't to eliminate fighting but to control it and keep it clean. It's good for fighting in hockey, not to mention good clean hard hits. That being said, I'm all for tweaking it. Get rid of anything beyond the extra 2 minutes. Supplementary discipline should not be automatic but like everything else should be a case by case thing if/when appropriate. Also I don't think it should be called when it's in retaliation to a dirty play. In my opinion it was the dirty play that instigated that fight. Unfortunately the refs are going to miss the initial dirty play once in a while but that's hockey. They'll never see everything.

The big issue with the Instigator is the inconsistent manner in which it is doled out. It goes to the first guy to drop the gloves, not the asshole hacking and whacking at the guy all the way up the ice until he snaps. Much like most other issues with the policing of the game, the true problem is in the consistency of the policing. If they called the instigator right, everything would be fine. But the true little bastards know that as long as they get the other guy to drop first, they don't get the extra and the fine.

Actually, I dare say that if the instigator was called right, you would lose more straight up goons because a guy who constantly adds 2 minutes PP for the opponent wouldn't stay around much.

The end of Derek Dorsett's career for sure. He stays because he pisses off the other guy enough to make them drop first. If your only purpose is to fight, you should lose your place. If you add nothing else to the game, then yeah. Go away.

Hockey isn't the only sport that has violence/emotions/cheapshots...but it's the only one that allows fighting (outside of combat sports). These other sports have found ways to police the game. Great point eloco.

I understand I won't be able to sway most people on this subject...but I'm far too educated in this realm to accept it as a necessary part of the game. (This is not me saying y'all be unedamacated)

Yes, I certainly enjoy three minute choreographed dance routines after every play in football. They are FABULOUS Guess I'm just stupid that way.

"Cheap" is more than poking someone in the eye when they are down.

Not saying these guys are killing themselves...but post-concussion syndrome is simply put: a bitch. So is addiction to analgesics. And depression. And constant headaches. And personality changes. And irritability. That crap tears up families.

There is validity to that, and there are THOUSANDS of other jobs on monster.com right now. Granted, none of them pay millions, but...

Firefighters don't complain about fire being too dangerous. Because it's part of the job, and if you don't want to do the job there are other options. I don't want to get punched in the face, so I don't play hockey. I don't want to burn my face off so I am not a firefighter. I don't want to be shot at, so I am not a badge carrier on a beat. It's up to ME to determine what I consider acceptable risk to make money. And it would be incredibly arrogant of me to go into a career and then try to change it to fit MY needs.

I am well versed in post-concussion syndrome. And somehow I managed to get through it without being addicted to anything or shredding my family. That argument, while I am sensitive to it, holds no water with me. Weak people who get addicted to things are weak people who would get addicted to things. Trying to lay blame on something after the fact is pointless. Because if not for the one factor you blame, it would have happened anyway. There would be some other trigger.

The headline said Fehr and the NHLPA wanted fighting gone.
I mentioned that no, the players overwhelmingly did NOT want fighting gone, and IPW kindly found the backing statistics.
Whether fighting should be in the game is a concurrent argument, but the point of the stat was to show the headline was 98% wrong

 

[Comeds]

There is validity to that, and there are THOUSANDS of other jobs on monster.com right now. Granted, none of them pay millions, but...

Firefighters don't complain about fire being too dangerous. Because it's part of the job, and if you don't want to do the job there are other options. I don't want to get punched in the face, so I don't play hockey. I don't want to burn my face off so I am not a firefighter. I don't want to be shot at, so I am not a badge carrier on a beat. It's up to ME to determine what I consider acceptable risk to make money. And it would be incredibly arrogant of me to go into a career and then try to change it to fit MY needs.

I am well versed in post-concussion syndrome. And somehow I managed to get through it without being addicted to anything or shredding my family. That argument, while I am sensitive to it, holds no water with me. Weak people who get addicted to things are weak people who would get addicted to things. Trying to lay blame on something after the fact is pointless. Because if not for the one factor you blame, it would have happened anyway. There would be some other trigger.

Is it any more incredibly arrogant than stating that all people with addictions are weak? Are people with depression issues weak too? Yeah, it didnt happen to you so it shouldnt happen to anyone. Thats kind of arrogant isnt it?

 

[Comeds]

By the way, even though I think they are silly and if up to me I would remove it from the sport - if a majority of the players want fighting in the game then I would let it be. As soon as a majority do not then it should be gone.

 

[forty_three]

Is it any more incredibly arrogant than stating that all people with addictions are weak? Are people with depression issues weak too? Yeah, it didnt happen to you so it shouldnt happen to anyone. Thats kind of arrogant isnt it?

Yes, I am.

It would be arrogant if I just sat back and waited to see if things "happened" and then bitched about the results. But taking control of things and fighting through it is something I am very proud of.

 

[forty_three]

And to be completely clear, I am not calling people with addiction issues weak. People with addiction issues will have addiction issues. People with depression issues will have depressions issues. Some factors will make it worse, some will make it better. but they will always have them. Derek Boogard would have had his addiction issues if he worked at a dry cleaner. To try and blame fighting for them is disingenuous. It's trying to assign blame to something that was going to happen anyway. Perhaps his career choice accelerated it, but it was going to happen no matter what.

Consider this: Who are the most well known concussion issues in the NHL?
Lafontaine
Kariya
Crosby
Lindros (x2)
Pronger

Who among them would you say are "fighters"? To lay the blame on concussion problems in the NHL solely at that ONE aspect of the game is BS. And to use that as an argument to eliminate that one aspect despite overwhelming feeling otherwise is exceptional BS.

 

[pixburgher66]

Still think there's nothing with enough value to keep it around. I know I won't be convinced, so I'm pretty sure I won't be convincing anyone either.