Donald Fehr & NHLPA want to eliminate fighting

[sabre0917]

They ban fighting I stop watching NHL hockey. When my team isnt playing i hope for big hits, fights, 7-8 goal games and La Flower letting in great goals (too bad hes been benched reason why i dont watch pen games).

 

[juliansteed]

I haven't had strong feelings for or against fighting in a long time, but if the players want to get rid of it then that's all I need to be sold on the idea. I'm sure they know a bit more about the environment in which they play than the rest of us, and have considered all the likely scenarios.

The days of the "Wild West" in the NHL have been over for a long time. Fighting is not needed anymore to deter dirty play. It's going to happen here and there with or without fighting and the so-called fear of fighting is just 1 of many things that will deter a player these days, and probably the least affective. Every game has countless cameras and they don't miss anything. If you do something dirty, you will likely pay for it. Many will look at the NHL's history of discipline as being somewhat random (which it is), but is it any more random than the threat of fighting? You cheap shot a guy and you may get your ass kicked or you may get to kick someone's ass (which might have been the intent from the beginning) or maybe nothing will happen etc. I'm guessing most players don't like being labelled as a cheapshot artist by the fans, media, and players around the league either.

 

[pixburgher66]

I think we all know where I stand on this. Yep.


Look, occasional fights can happen, whatever, but you need to make it undesirable beyond getting your face punched. I really don't find fights enjoyable unless I'm in person, and that's just because of the buzz in the building that happens. The issue is, there's no way to prevent them without just eliminating them.

 

[pixburgher66]

Something I feel I need to say as well:

People used to smoke before we knew the full extent of the damage for various reasons...to fit in, look cool, calm nerves, enjoyment, etc. Now we "know better" and far fewer people smoke. We know too much about the damage microtrauma causes to ignore it these days. It's not just sissy-fying a league...it's making changes based on the new knowledge we have. It's called adapting. This league is not just about putting an entertaining product on the ice...it's also about protecting the product. The health and longevity of the players is MORE important than fan entertainment factor. At least it should be. Obviously this is the opinion of someone whose career is to ensure athlete's health, so my take is different. BUT, sometimes people outside the players need to make choices for them too. These guys have the dangerous athlete mentality...fight through pain, work hard, get rewarded. All is true, but health professionals need to make sure they're not putting themselves in dangerous situations. I'm pretty sure every AT in the hockey realm will enjoy not dealing with fights anymore.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

How about we just kill some of the lawyers?

We're trying to have a reasonable discussion, eloco, quit spouting your radical opinions and opposing mass murder.

 

[puckhead]

You could argue that the stupid extra penalties for instigating and fighting with a visor has made fights less organic, leading to more cheap play trying to get the other guy to "instigate".

Let 'em go. Five each. End of story.

Agree. The threat of having to answer for your actions is an important deterrent (which the instigator rule has unfortunately minimized).
Hell, the threat for having to answer for your actions is probably more of a deterrent than the threat of a 2 minute minor - if you get caught.

I haven't had strong feelings for or against fighting in a long time, but if the players want to get rid of it then that's all I need to be sold on the idea.

I distinctly remember a pretty widespread players poll in this last lockout where one of the questions was regarding wanting to ban fighting, and I believe it was 2% of the players were in favour of it. It was a small enough number that it made me try to figure out a list of who those few players likely were.

Donald Fehr wants fighting banned - sure. that makes sense.
I don't for a minute believe that the players do.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Was it the threat of getting pounded that made raffi torres play a different game this season?

Nope ... It was the threat of losing more cheques

 

[puckhead]

Was it the threat of getting pounded that made raffi torres play a different game this season?

Nope ... It was the threat of losing more cheques

fear of fighting is not, and never has been raffi's issue.
besides -very shortly after he strikes, the medics are in the way of any hell breaking loose.


Matt Cooke, Brad Marchand, Mike Ribiero... all that cheap little shit they pull that thoroughly deserves a good beating. Should really just illicit a good beating.

here's an example near and dear to your heart - Steve Moore cheap shots Naslund.
Brad May was on the ice, skated immediately over to Moore.... and did nothing. grabbed him, and that's it. if May can kick the bejesus out of Moore on the spot, without fear of 2+5+10+$$$ - the issue is closed.

for me, staged fights are useless. but there is a very important place in the game for self-policing.
it even spills over to beer league. It's always the idiots in full cages who are swinging their sticks head-level as they skate down the ice - because they themselves have no fear. They need to know fear to know respect.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I distinctly remember a pretty widespread players poll in this last lockout where one of the questions was regarding wanting to ban fighting, and I believe it was 2% of the players were in favour of it.

Top Poll is from 2011 & Bottom Poll is from 2012

 

[juliansteed]

What I've never understood is this. Why is fear of penalties, suspensions, and fines enough to deter a would-be instigator but not enough to deter someone from committing a cheap-shot?

I think if fighting is to stay in the game that the instigator needs to stay too. I personally think it's the most misunderstood rule in hockey. The intent isn't to eliminate fighting but to control it and keep it clean. It's good for fighting in hockey, not to mention good clean hard hits. That being said, I'm all for tweaking it. Get rid of anything beyond the extra 2 minutes. Supplementary discipline should not be automatic but like everything else should be a case by case thing if/when appropriate. Also I don't think it should be called when it's in retaliation to a dirty play. In my opinion it was the dirty play that instigated that fight. Unfortunately the refs are going to miss the initial dirty play once in a while but that's hockey. They'll never see everything.

 

[elocomotive]

That makes far too much sense to ever happen.

Can anyone that has watched a lot of hockey in the last few years say that it looks to them like fighting has deterred dirty hits and kept players more respectful? It doesnt look like it to me.

E-fucking-xactly.

Fighting will go away. And then we'll get to see.

 

[elocomotive]

They ban fighting I stop watching NHL hockey.

I'd estimate you have 4-10 years of hockey watching left then. Enjoy it while you can.

 

[elocomotive]

Something I feel I need to say as well:

People used to smoke before we knew the full extent of the damage for various reasons...to fit in, look cool, calm nerves, enjoyment, etc. Now we "know better" and far fewer people smoke. We know too much about the damage microtrauma causes to ignore it these days. It's not just sissy-fying a league...it's making changes based on the new knowledge we have. It's called adapting. This league is not just about putting an entertaining product on the ice...it's also about protecting the product. The health and longevity of the players is MORE important than fan entertainment factor. At least it should be. Obviously this is the opinion of someone whose career is to ensure athlete's health, so my take is different. BUT, sometimes people outside the players need to make choices for them too. These guys have the dangerous athlete mentality...fight through pain, work hard, get rewarded. All is true, but health professionals need to make sure they're not putting themselves in dangerous situations. I'm pretty sure every AT in the hockey realm will enjoy not dealing with fights anymore.

One of the best posts I've ever read on SportsHoopla. Well said, Pix.

We're trying to have a reasonable discussion, eloco, quit spouting your radical opinions and opposing mass murder.

Lol.

 

[elocomotive]

for me, staged fights are useless. but there is a very important place in the game for self-policing.

it even spills over to beer league. It's always the idiots in full cages who are swinging their sticks head-level as they skate down the ice - because they themselves have no fear. They need to know fear to know respect.

I think there is a huge logical fallacy associated with hockey fans and fighting.

I wear a full cage when I play, because frankly, I don't have any hair, so I have to keep my pretty, pretty face intact. I don't cheap shot guys or lay out big hits. The reasons is... I'm not an asshole. I'm there to have fun and hurting other people isn't necessary. Most guys in my league take the same approach. Another guy on my team was getting suspended every year. He took cheap shots, would get in the refs face, and eventually got expelled from playing hockey at that arena for fighting (it was a no fighting league). He had no cage, but he was an asshole. It's not about the fear of reprisal, it's about the approach and the values you instill.

As 43 mentioned earlier, I don't think the kids that have the shitty parents' kids will act differently if there is fighting. Sadly for them, their parents suck, and they haven't been taught to act properly/respect others. Shocker - the kids who aren't taught that are also not the ones going, 'hm, should I do this... no, I may get my ass kicked.' They are the same ones not thinking about the reaction.

We talk about these things as if the players have a complex logical analysis going on in a split second during a game. That's not the case. They get pissed off, the do things in the moment, they put a elbow up instead of just hitting a guy because they don't like them. That is the fallacy. They aren't thinking 'oh, i might have to get into a fight if I do this.' It's more emotional than it is logical. And the overall culture of violence elevates all of that. And then we try to apply logic to it. It doesn't work. And the fighting only compounds and expands the problem.

You can't stop those emotional components. You can impact the VALUES that go into them. The value in the NHL is you combat violence with violence. That doesn't send a message that player safety is important. You build those values over time by having a serious discipline policy that creates a value system that changes how players approach the game from the get go. THAT can impact the emotional component and change it over time. Football is the best example. It is an intensely violent game as well, but you don't see nearly as many cheap shots as you do in hockey despite a lack of fighting and full protective gear.

No other serious sport in North America takes the approach to violence/contact that hockey does, and plenty of them have serious violence in them. It's wrong. It's been wrong for 100+ years and the inertia of history should never serve as a guide to the future.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Since players get injured hitting the boards, they might as well just cover those bad boys in rubber foam.

Skates are sharp, and they are a hazard to player's safety. How many times have we seen players get injured (almost killed) from getting cut with a skate? They better just get rid of them.

I've also noticed that ice is a hard surface. Players get serious injured when falling on this, so they should get rid of ice as well.

Sometimes players are injured from being hit with the stick. Time to get rid of the sticks as well.

Also no physical contact should be allowed as well. Too many players get injured from being checked, legal or not.

The puck is also hard as well. Players can get seriously injured when a fast moving puck hits them. Better remove that from the game as well.


Hockey

 

[pixburgher66]

Hockey isn't the only sport that has violence/emotions/cheapshots...but it's the only one that allows fighting (outside of combat sports). These other sports have found ways to police the game. Great point eloco.

I understand I won't be able to sway most people on this subject...but I'm far too educated in this realm to accept it as a necessary part of the game. (This is not me saying y'all be unedamacated)

 

[elocomotive]

Since players get injured hitting the boards, they might as well just cover those bad boys in rubber foam.

Skates are sharp, and they are a hazard to player's safety. How many times have we seen players get injured (almost killed) from getting cut with a skate? They better just get rid of them.

I've also noticed that ice is a hard surface. Players get serious injured when falling on this, so they should get rid of ice as well.

Sometimes players are injured from being hit with the stick. Time to get rid of the sticks as well.

Also no physical contact should be allowed as well. Too many players get injured from being checked, legal or not.

The puck is also hard as well. Players can get seriously injured when a fast moving puck hits them. Better remove that from the game as well.


Hockey

I get the sarcasm, but it's like saying that because there is drunk driving you should have no driving at all.

I don't want to see big hits go away and they don't have to. Sensible reform can maintain intensity while taking away brutality.

 

[pixburgher66]

Since players get injured hitting the boards, they might as well just cover those bad boys in rubber foam.

Skates are sharp, and they are a hazard to player's safety. How many times have we seen players get injured (almost killed) from getting cut with a skate? They better just get rid of them.

I've also noticed that ice is a hard surface. Players get serious injured when falling on this, so they should get rid of ice as well.

Sometimes players are injured from being hit with the stick. Time to get rid of the sticks as well.

Also no physical contact should be allowed as well. Too many players get injured from being checked, legal or not.

The puck is also hard as well. Players can get seriously injured when a fast moving puck hits them. Better remove that from the game as well.


Hockey

I know you're being intentionally overdramatic...but to the people who subscribe to this, I bring in the idea of limiting risk. There's implied risk in playing any sport...of course, these days we have to have kids/parents sign a freakin' waiver so they don't sue everyone when their kid gets hurt in a sport (YOU MEAN THEY GET INJURED PLAYING SPORTS?!). Implied risks in hockey are basically everything you just listed. Those are all parts of the game that are necessary (sans illegal checks). The game of hockey would BE THE SAME without fights. Does no one enjoy the beauty of the game without some boring scripted fight? Scrums will still happen. You know what won't? Having to sit and watch Eric freaking Godard take the ice because "well, they have a goon."

 

[elocomotive]

I know you're being intentionally overdramatic...but to the people who subscribe to this, I bring in the idea of limiting risk. There's implied risk in playing any sport...of course, these days we have to have kids/parents sign a freakin' waiver so they don't sue everyone when their kid gets hurt in a sport (YOU MEAN THEY GET INJURED PLAYING SPORTS?!). Implied risks in hockey are basically everything you just listed. Those are all parts of the game that are necessary (sans illegal checks). The game of hockey would BE THE SAME without fights. Does no one enjoy the beauty of the game without some boring scripted fight? Scrums will still happen. You know what won't? Having to sit and watch Eric freaking Godard take the ice because "well, they have a goon."

Which filters down to the lower levels as well. Lots of players turn to fighting b/c while they are good, they can't make it unless they are willing to do certain things. Take away that prize at the top level, and you don't have people "training" for that role in the minors/juniors.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I get the sarcasm, but it's like saying that because there is drunk driving you should have no driving at all.

If 98% of the players want to keep fighting in the game, who are we to tell them they can't, when it has been part of the game for so long?

That's like me telling cops not to wear guns when they are out on patrol becasue someone might get accidentally shot or something.

Fighting is allowed, but it it regulated and monitored. They just don't sit back and watch a guy get his head smashed open on the ice while another player jumps off the top stachion with an elbow.

How many injures and problems with players health are a result from fighting compared to how many have problems and injures from everything else attributed to just playing Hockey at a Pro Level?

If you remove fighting, you also have to revamp the entire way the game is played, and that spells trouble. Just my opinion is all.