Discipline

[SLY]

So... This system sucks major ass. We have not yet heard from the league regarding Rome's hit on Horty, but I am sure we all can assume it is going to be some bullshit like 1 game or so. No loss to the 'Nucks, HUGE loss for the B's. Basically, I am just curious as to how you guys would handle this.

Do you think that players should police themselves to truly limit the disrespectful play we are all witnessing since the league "buckled down" on illegal hits? What do you think the suspension/fine scale should look like?

It is pretty evident that 1-10 game suspensions mean nothing to players when you have a player (Gillies) coming off of a 10 game suspension only to deliver an illegal blow in his first game back. Fines? Pfft, these guys make enough money to do as they please on the ice, money is nothing, especially the bullshit fines that are handed out.

Honestly, to me, the best solution is to allow players to police themselves, but that is just not going to happen. The Bettman era NHL is trying to make this a kiddy sport to increase revenue, can't really blame them ($ > Fan, anyday in any sport), so what is your answer?

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

You know, this hit reminded me a helluva lot of Scott Stevens on Eric Lindross. The result of it makes it awful. Yes, it was late and yes, it was high but it goes to the thread we have about hitting in minor hockey. Players aren't taught proper technique on hitting and are not being taught how to protect themselves. I, like most Canuck fans, don't care much for Rome anyway. It's no loss if he's gone. By far the worst D-man on the team (although last night they were all bad). I don't know if there is an answer here. In the NFL last year, there was a bunch of injuries on late head hits that one week. One analyst said,"how about you suspend the hitter the same amount of time as the injured player is out?" I don't know, is that an answer.

One final thing and by no means am I excusing Rome here but dammit, you pass the puck off when you are crossing the opponents blueline going east/west, don't stare and admire the pass, turn your damn head and look to see if something is coming because there almost always is. Even if it would have been a clean hit, the kid probably would have got hurt because he wasn't prepared. Head should always be on a swivel out there.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

You know, this hit reminded me a helluva lot of Scott Stevens on Eric Lindross. The result of it makes it awful. Yes, it was late and yes, it was high but it goes to the thread we have about hitting in minor hockey. Players aren't taught proper technique on hitting and are not being taught how to protect themselves. I, like most Canuck fans, don't care much for Rome anyway. It's no loss if he's gone. By far the worst D-man on the team (although last night they were all bad). I don't know if there is an answer here. In the NFL last year, there was a bunch of injuries on late head hits that one week. One analyst said,"how about you suspend the hitter the same amount of time as the injured player is out?" I don't know, is that an answer.

One final thing and by no means am I excusing Rome here but dammit, you pass the puck off when you are crossing the opponents blueline going east/west, don't stare and admire the pass, turn your damn head and look to see if something is coming because there almost always is. Even if it would have been a clean hit, the kid probably would have got hurt because he wasn't prepared. Head should always be on a swivel out there.

true but the hit was so so so late

 

[SLY]

I agree, that Nathan should have had his head up, I agree that hockey is a fast sport as well. But there is 0 respect out there now. Clearly no one was around him within crushing distance as he made the pass, so maybe, poor decision on his part, he didn't look ahead instantly, but that still doesnt excuse a late-headhunting hit.

I dont think that suspending a player for the length of the injury is correct either, because it will always be different. There needs to be strict and critical penalties no matter who the offender is. If Rome or a star player like Corsby does an illegal hit that is clearly against the rules they should be suspended 20 games as a first offense. Second offense should be 40 games. And third offense should be a whole season. Meanwhile the whole time their salary/or a masive chunk of it should be going to some injury fund for the league as a whole. It is the only way they will play not so dirty.

 

[elocomotive]

Honestly, to me, the best solution is to allow players to police themselves, but that is just not going to happen.

When you say that, what do you mean? I'm assuming you mean retaliation hits and fighting to keep guys in check. Maybe you mean something else, but that already happens now.

 

[SLY]

When you say that, what do you mean? I'm assuming you mean retaliation hits and fighting to keep guys in check. Maybe you mean something else, but that already happens now.

Yes that is what I mean, but the league limits it with all their instigator penalty bullshit. If we concussed one of their star players last night I bet that player would be suspended for a long time, whereas right now Rome is prolly going to get zilch for that hit. But with a retaliatory action it would have gone up. Its just bullshit.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Like I said, in no way do I excuse Rome. It was awfully late but I was playing devil's advocate a little here. It's just that if not for the injury, there would have been an interference penalty and people would have been just wow, what a hit and not all the outrage. If it had been say Chara on Hansen or something, the Bruins fans would have been saying the same as me. Our emotions are governing our responses to this because of the horrific injury.

 

[SLY]

Not completely, you cant generally say all Bruins fan would say the same. I dont ever stand up for headhits. Whether Horton was concussed or not last night, that was an illegal hit that targeted the head, plain and simple.

 

[elocomotive]

Yes that is what I mean, but the league limits it with all their instigator penalty bullshit. If we concussed one of their star players last night I bet that player would be suspended for a long time, whereas right now Rome is prolly going to get zilch for that hit. But with a retaliatory action it would have gone up. Its just bullshit.

The instigator is a 2-minute penalty. If it really matters to your team and standing up for a guy, that's really not that big of a deal, especially if people are saying a short suspension doesn't mean anything, which I don't agree with. That said, I agree it's a dumb rule. But I also don't think having to fight changes the behavior of some guys. Hell, I think a guy like Steve Downie wants to give you that nasty hit and then a fight is like a bonus.

Suspensions work to some degree, but you have to be (1) clear about what will get you one, (2) consistent in applying them, and (3) communicate effectively when one is given out.

The NHL is failing to enforce a good discipline policy right now because they fail on all three. (1) They set up rules that are too complicated/limited and are thus more difficult to apply. (2) They don't apply the ones they have with consistency. Horton and Burrows this postseason are excellent examples. (3) The communication they give is terrible and uninformative. It should be explained. Their disposition on what they think happened should be clear. They should make judgments. And then they should tell us WHAT those are.

 

[SLY]

The instigator is a 2-minute penalty. If it really matters to your team and standing up for a guy, that's really not that big of a deal, especially if people are saying a short suspension doesn't mean anything, which I don't agree with. That said, I agree it's a dumb rule. But I also don't think having to fight changes the behavior of some guys. Hell, I think a guy like Steve Downie wants to give you that nasty hit and then a fight is like a bonus.

Suspensions work to some degree, but you have to be (1) clear about what will get you one, (2) consistent in applying them, and (3) communicate effectively when one is given out.

The NHL is failing to enforce a good discipline policy right now because they fail on all three. (1) They set up rules that are too complicated/limited and are thus more difficult to apply. (2) They don't apply the ones they have with consistency. Horton and Burrows this postseason are excellent examples. (3) The communication they give is terrible and uninformative. It should be explained. Their disposition on what they think happened should be clear. They should make judgments. And then they should tell us WHAT those are.

Precisely, but it will never happen.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Okay, Jeff, I'll grant you that but can you honestly say that your emotions aren't a big part of the outrage? It's human nature that the result dictates the emotional response. I bet you would be apologetic to Canucks fans if the shoe were on the other foot but you would not be nearly as outraged. Without the result of the hit, the injury, there isn't anywhere near the outrage. I'm not saying it's bad to do that, it just is what it is and the next hit like this will get the same response, and rest assured, there will always be hits like this. As I said, I agree that the hit was awful and late and in no way can be defended but the reaction is what I'm getting at.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

time to pull out the NHL rule clarification video that was sent to all teams/players

watch the legal hits portion and tell me all head shots are illegal ... not all head shots are created equally lol

2:54
3:15
3:19

 

[SLY]

Okay, Jeff, I'll grant you that but can you honestly say that your emotions aren't a big part of the outrage? It's human nature that the result dictates the emotional response. I bet you would be apologetic to Canucks fans if the shoe were on the other foot but you would not be nearly as outraged. Without the result of the hit, the injury, there isn't anywhere near the outrage. I'm not saying it's bad to do that, it just is what it is and the next hit like this will get the same response, and rest assured, there will always be hits like this. As I said, I agree that the hit was awful and late and in no way can be defended but the reaction is what I'm getting at.

They are no doubt an effect on my ill will that is being wished. But as far as disciplinary measures, no.

And to the bolded part, you are probably correct. It's just irritating the shit outta me to see the Canucks team, well the Coach say he believes there is nothing wrong with the hit. At least one of the Sedins said, "Yes, I believe the hit was dirty, but not intended to be".

Well my response to that is watch the video, the intent was written all over it. He circled back and had his shoulder ready for head contact the whole way through. He was going for a devastating blow, and congratulations Rome and fellow Canucks, he got it.

 

[elocomotive]

Precisely, but it will never happen.

We'll have to wait and see.

#1 will take time and maybe we'll see some more rules changes this summer.
#2 may change with a new czar of discipline.
#3 is an institutional problem. The NHL is still stuck in this cone of silence regime with their public relations. They should follow the lead of the NFL and other leagues that recognize the public is willing to forgive mistakes, but can't stand being kept in the dark.

 

[Comeds]

I agree that it sucks when a jobber takes out a key part of another team, a suspension does very little to the team with the jobber on it, and the other team is still left without a key player. However if the players policed themselves this wouldnt change, teams would just make sure they had some big tough (possibly unskilled) player that could batter and beat other teams star players. Players do not respect the code now, one often sees players fighting those that dont fight, if players policed themselves completely without repercussion I think it would be a free for all on the leagues star players.

I think the league has to be involved in discipline. Players do not respect each other, that has been a complaint as long as I have been watching and I do not see it going away any time soon. I just do not see allowing them to settle it all on the ice changing that.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

I agree that it sucks when a jobber takes out a key part of another team, a suspension does very little to the team with the jobber on it, and the other team is still left without a key player.

not that they needed it last night but Don Cherry suggested that the team that loses the player should be allowed to dress a replacement during the game (ie Seguin should have been allowed to suit up)

interesting ... i guess ... but theres probably potential for misuse/abuse

 

[pixburgher66]

There's no easy way to do this...it's safer that the league takes care of it though. It's apparent to see that there's not a lot of respect in the league with players taking cheapshots (although for this hit I really don't think it was a headshot...late, yes, but he was in front of him. the damage was from the ice...still suspendable, i agree), so letting the players police themselves? It'd be a joke. In past years it would work because players would go after the offender, these days it'd probably end up with superstars getting beat up. Example, last night if the players were 'policing' the situation, with Rome already out of the game? There'd be a Sedin injured or Kesler out. Not saying that Boston has cheap players or anything, just using last night as an example of how I feel it'd play out throughout the league.

 

[Comeds]

not that they needed it last night but Don Cherry suggested that the team that loses the player should be allowed to dress a replacement during the game (ie Seguin should have been allowed to suit up)

interesting ... i guess ... but theres probably potential for misuse/abuse

In the case of any injury or just when it is deemed that the aggressor is much less important than the injured player? This would be whole new can of worms to decide.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Okay, word has it that Rome has been suspended for the series. Is this enough? I don't know, just asking.
2011 Stanley Cup playoffs: Vancouver Canucks' Aaron Rome suspended 4 games, Boston Bruins' Nathan Horton to miss rest of playoffs - ESPN Boston

 

[mattola]

Okay, word has it that Rome has been suspended for the series. Is this enough? I don't know, just asking.
2011 Stanley Cup playoffs: Vancouver Canucks' Aaron Rome suspended 4 games, Boston Bruins' Nathan Horton to miss rest of playoffs - ESPN Boston

not for some. not until Rome is lying bleeding on the ice next year. then its good