Did Michael Jordan ruin basketball? Absolutely!

[Kinzu]

The problem is the star mentality that exist in Basketball, and I can understand blaming MJ for that. It's however not Jordan that is the issue. It's simply his image.

Jordan is far and away the best player this game has ever seen. The biggest thing people remember from him though are the plays were he single handily took over and would score no matter how many defenders tried to stop him. Then these same people (especially kids) go out and try to imitate it. They don't understand or know about the hundreds of hours Jordan put into perfecting his shot, his passing, his dribbling, or even that deadly fade-away jumper. They don't fully understand that the man was so good because he practiced harder than most anyone to maximize the talents his body would allow for. Go watch ESPN's 30 for 30 on "Bad Boys", They talk about how after the Pistons roughed up and beat up Jordan in the playoffs he spent all off-season building up his body physically to take the beating and give it back the next year. Whenever someone exposed a weakness of his he worked his tail off to turn it into a strength. They don't understand from a mental stand point just how intelligent he was and how much he studied the game on a daily basis.

I just read an article earlier today where Doug Collins stated Jordan was a genius when it came to basketball. He talked about how MJ simply understood his opponents strength's and weakness's better than anyone else he ever coached. He talked about how Jordan was constantly looking for a weakness to attack. If he ever saw a guy walking around with his hands on his hips or slightly limping or not giving 100% he would attack that guy over and over. If he ever saw a teammate not giving 100% he knew how to motion or give the coach a look to get him out of the game.

That stuff though that allowed him to be the best does not reflect on TV quite the same way that a cross-over, split two defenders, and then spin into the paint for a dunk does though. We see that and go "Oh my God! I want to do that like Mike." What Jordan likely saw though was a one guy tired and the other playing 50% and then put his practiced talents to work.

 

[Inimical]

Actually, that is LeBron.

The reason why LeBron won't surpass MJ isn't because of talent, it is all about Jordan's competitive drive and mental toughness. As far as physical talent though, nobody in the history of the game can touch LeBron.

I agree with this, and add this.

Now before admins take me to the superthread, i think this stands on its own.

Also, before anyone goes, Kobe this or Jordan that, this thread is not about them. As was the case with Bryant and Jordan, its time for Lebron to have his own spotlight in the individual legacy category. So for your amusement...



==================================================================


So where we at with Lebrons legacy anyway?


Here we had this highly touted kid, from AKRON, OHIO. From where? Alright whatever. Hes going to be the next what? Hes good enough to be the next who? Alright lets take a look at this kid. Hes pretty good. When he first came into the league for such a young cat he put up some good numbers. Nothing special though. How many rooks have done that and been long forgotten since? Alright. So he started to grow into a man, and his physical gifts became apparent. He transformed into a physical specimen, and he used it to the fullest. Then the basketball IQ came along and watch out! This kid can score, rebound, and pass? Not bad, not bad. He became a god in Cleveland. I mean an absolute sports god. Everyone in Ohio i can imagine wanted to see Lebron. Lebron helped put the NBA back on the Pop culture map. He was awe inspiring and polarizing, as many great talents are. He was also tremendous dunker, and we all love our tremendous dunks.

So he has it all, fame, money, talent. But i think it all started to weight on him. Did anybody read the letter he wrote in SI? He wanted out of Cleveland. He made that abundantly clear.

"Remember when I was sitting up there at the Boys & Girls Club in 2010? I was thinking, This is really tough. I could feel it. I was leaving something I had spent a long time creating. If I had to do it all over again, I’d obviously do things differently, but I’d still have left."

I think the pressure got to Lebron to be honest. And he ran. And i think he knows he ran. But who hasn't right? He was a young kid. I don't blame him. I always thought the reason he did "The decision" on live TV was because he was young and dumb. Just a dumb young kid. A kid who was a millionaire, the "KING", and could do no wrong. Everyone loved him. I mean they called him "King James" for shitfucks sake. Isn't funny though, how love can make a person run?

If he would have won 1 title in Cleveland it would have been worth the 6 he promised for Miami. So what was his decision? He ran to where he could win the quickest and easiest way. The Heat at the time where really the only place he could have done so with roster make ups around the league at the time. He turned his back on that city. On that state. The people that loved him and worshiped him. The city of Cleveland especially loved him. It devastated the local economy when he left. He didn't just leave, the left dust and ashes in his wake. Talk about pressure. He choose winning over loyalty. I know its a business, and he has his rights. But WHO forced his hand? Who made him make his "Decision".

Obviously for Lebron James, it was not about commitment. It wasn't about commitment for the city of Cleveland, and it wasn't about commitment for the city of Miami. He obviously was really confused, by his
"Decisions" and as his "Letter" clearly indicates.

His situation is most unique i must say. He had it all already, and in the city he could most closely call home, but he needed more.

The stories about how much Cleveland loved Lebron are legendary. The one i always remember are how people FLYING OVER THE CITY could see the huge banners that covered entire skyscrapers with the words

"WITNESS"

What more can i say?

Millions upon millions were lost.

So Lebron was right....

"People there have seen me grow up. I sometimes feel like I’m their son. Their passion can be overwhelming. But it drives me. I want to give them hope when I can. I want to inspire them when I can. My relationship with Northeast Ohio is bigger than basketball. I didn’t realize that four years ago. I do now."


I think he was disappointed in himself. I also think he felt the disappointment from the people of Ohio. In some strange way maybe he just didn't want to disappoint them anymore eh? He felt the pressure and needed to win. I dont think it was the pressure of being an all time great. No not at all. How many times does Lebron have to prove to the world? The "Decision", this letter, his lack of wanting to step up to the MOMENT so that we may all WITNESS. It was an unfair pressure of being so beloved, so highly touted, so talented, that it became almost mythical.


In an interview before the end of the season of 2009-10 he said,

"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

James also was asked what he could say to the people in Cleveland, and it was noteworthy that he used the past tense in saying "We had a great time together."

Today? Today hes a proven winner. But backed by what? Proven that he needs to win with 2 other Superstars? He had a much shitter roster in Cleveland, that much is certain. But his rosters in Miami were not even on the same planet. So it goes both ways.

When he left Cleveland he was nothing more then a proven loser. Its harsh i know, but it fits enough for me. Todays scenarios look like he can lure, rather then be lured. Promise, rather then be promised. In fact, in some ways Lebron has more power then ever in Cleveland. And he owes that to Miami.



We are not going to compare him to the greats. He belongs in the talent/Numbers comparison. Sure. But the winning is what puts you up with the all timers. How many greats played the game in the past, yesteryear, and present that we simply forget? I mean if Charles Barkley wasn't on TV i would have forgotten the mutherfucker if not for the occasional Phoenix fan and drunken all time great ramblings im sure we all have been a part of. Besides his career is far from over.

I dont think Lebron James wants to be the greatest of all time. I dont think that at all. He just doesnt show me he does. I still dont understand why he left Miami. I thought u wanted to win James? Now you want to do whats right? Is that really what this is all about? I really dont know what to make of "decision 2.0". Now hes done to Miami what he did to Cleveland. But in the end, in peoples eyes the NBA world over, "Home" is much more important then "Home away from home".

The saddest part about all this is that Lebrons legacy is not about winning. Its not about losing. Its not about stats. Its not about titles. Its not even about being an all time great.

Its about his mentality.

And that part his character has been ravaged by many people far and wide.

Cause when the going gets tough, Lebron gets............ the fuck outta there?

Lebrons only chance at redemption is us seeing a Lebron we have never seen before.

And im not sure that will ever happen.

But one thing is for certain, 1 title in Cleveland will mean more then any other title in NBA history in my eyes.

Goodluck Cleveland!

 

[tzorn10]

No. They play a different game. Rick Mahorn was a defensive lineman. There is no place for his antics in basketball.

Sure they play a different game now. Touch fouls for pansies (a continuation of the Jordan rules). You cant be serious in thinking that todays game is anywhere close to the 70's and 80's when you had Moses, Lanier, Unseld, and players of that ilk hanging all over you. I'd love to see players of today drive the lane for an uncontested basket back then. They would get killed. Hell, half the time in the 70's and 80's if a fight broke out, the players didn't even get thrown out. It was a mans game back then and i'm not talking dirty antics like Mahorn and so forth.

 

[tlance]

Sure they play a different game now. Touch fouls for pansies (a continuation of the Jordan rules). You cant be serious in thinking that todays game is anywhere close to the 70's and 80's when you had Moses, Lanier, Unseld, and players of that ilk hanging all over you. I'd love to see players of today drive the lane for an uncontested basket back then. They would get killed. Hell, half the time in the 70's and 80's if a fight broke out, the players didn't even get thrown out. It was a mans game back then and i'm not talking dirty antics like Mahorn and so forth.

You don't even get what I am saying. A lot of the body to body contact that occurs on drives to the rim today would have been called a foul in the 80s, and even the 90s. Now it is play on.

Again, you reference the hard fouls and the fighting and say that it was a man's game because of it. I call .
Back then, a touch foul and a decapitation had the same result. 2 shots. The league smartly decided that they needed to do away with all the fighting, so they made stricter rules regarding the hard fouls, since A obviously leads to B.

While it is true that many players back then were old school tough, you could get away with being a soft skill player back then also. Today, you can't. If your body is not big enough and strong enough to accept the physical pounding that occurs on routine plays, then you no longer get bailed out with a referees whistle like players did back then. The rule changes allow for more physical contact on drives resulting in a no call. The result has actually led to the valuation of the raw, unskilled athlete over the less athletic skill player. Part of the issue in our game today is the lack of fundamental skills and the more physical play that I am talking about plays a role in it.

The way that referees view incidental contact in basketball has changed significantly over the years and it now favors bigger and stronger players more than ever before. If you are referencing the flagrant fouls and the fighting, then we are not talking about the same thing.

 

[gpm1976]

Don't have any clue what the hell the writer is talking about. There were other players before Jordan who played iso ball. The NBA has always highlighted its stars since the 70's. And it's not like Jordan won it by himself. He had a great team and a great coaching system(like the Spurs have and they also have 3 future HOF's). So when the Heat won they didn't win it as a team? Don't recall Lebron hogging the ball.

Bottom line you can't win in the NBA by yourself.

I agree. Jordan played great team ball. He got a bad rep maybe because we all knew who the ball was going to when the game was on the line and he never seemed to disappoint. If anything, the blame for this new culture should go right to Nike and Espn for marketing the individual and making that one person larger than life.

 

[gordontrue]

To me there's a lot of "walking to school uphill in the snow both ways" in this sentiment. Nostalgia tends to get people exaggerating.

One thing for sure is the financial success of the NBA benefited drastically from MJ

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Catching this thread a bit late, but in response to the OP.

No...MJ did not ruin team basketball...the NBA had long since started marketing star players...I think a clear cut case of this was when Dr. J was brought over from NY Nets of the ABA to play in Philly...imo the NBA/ABA merger is when the NBA 1st starting marketing individual players...I remember the Iceman posters, etc.

Iso play...does anyone here remember the Triangle offense designed by Tex Winters? Phil was able to get MJ to work within the confines of that OFC...and they did tweak it to take advantage of MJ's skills, but if you really watched the games, MJ would often be coming off screens away from the ball to receive the pass...there was not a lot of MJ with the ball and clearing out a side.

Phil took the same OFC to LAL, but again tweaked it...to take advantage of Shaq's skills.

Obviously MJ took a lot of shots, but he was far from a ball hog when the Bulls really took off.

 

[ArlingtonCowboys100]

Stern ruined the NBA. Players like Jordan,Bird,Magic,Shaq were babied along. The rules did not apply to them. Rarely called for fouls or even traveling, if anybody tried to defend them the whistle would blow and many times the defenders did not touch them. The draft lottery is about as legit as the WWE. The NBA made sure Lebron had talent to go back to

 

[trojanfan12]

I agree that the game has changed drastically from the 80's until now, but I don't blame MJ, I blame Stern and the league as a whole.


The NBA was practically just a "niche sport" for most of it's existence. Magic and Bird coming into the league created a huge uptick in the popularity of the NBA. While the league focused on those stars and others like Dr. J., etc. it remained a team sport. There were fewer teams, therefore you had more high level talent per team so the "team" approach still worked well.


Through expansion and free agency, as someone else pointed out, the league became a bit diluted and the star players spread out among more teams. THIS is what lead to more and more teams going to the use of iso's. MJ was the biggest star of all of those star players, so naturally the focus was placed on him. He may be seen as the reason, but the blame should not be placed on him, he was simply a player doing everything he could to win.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

I agree with the ridiculous idea that Michael Jordan ruined basketball. That sounds like sour grapes to the losers in that era - to me. Get over it already - the Bulls won and you lost - Now move on losers - lol. Seriously - one player is not bigger than the game itself - not even when that player is Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. Yes these great athletes has given us hours of entertainment, and yes they did affect the game, but ruined it? NO - THAT'S JUST PLAIN SILLY BY THE FANS WHO LOST

 

[True Lakers Fan]

In fact I think Michael Jordan did much to help the NBA when his team stopped the Detroit Pistons and the style of being thugs in the NBA. Michael Jordan clearly was tough, but also made it clear that their thuggery was going to become obsolete

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I agree that the game has changed drastically from the 80's until now, but I don't blame MJ, I blame Stern and the league as a whole.


The NBA was practically just a "niche sport" for most of it's existence. Magic and Bird coming into the league created a huge uptick in the popularity of the NBA. While the league focused on those stars and others like Dr. J., etc. it remained a team sport. There were fewer teams, therefore you had more high level talent per team so the "team" approach still worked well.


Through expansion and free agency, as someone else pointed out, the league became a bit diluted and the star players spread out among more teams. THIS is what lead to more and more teams going to the use of iso's. MJ was the biggest star of all of those star players, so naturally the focus was placed on him. He may be seen as the reason, but the blame should not be placed on him, he was simply a player doing everything he could to win.

The OP's claim here is either naive, or silly...he has defended or tried to defend his position so I will say naive.

Stern...I'm not sure how he acquired all the power he had, but I have to assume that the players gave it him because the league was in real bad shape in the last few years of the O'Brien era...the league had a coke problem, Rudy T. was blasted in the face in a fight, finals on tape delay...it was hot mess.

Stern ruled with the iron fist, got the league back on stable footing with a decent TV contract, etc...the league is certainly different, but I don't think it's ruined and I'm not even a hardcore NBA guy anymore...just too many games to hold my interest for a whole season...playoffs...I can work with that. I agree the expansion hurt, just as it did with the NHL.

 

[trojanfan12]

The OP's claim here is either naive, or silly...he has defended or tried to defend his position so I will say naive.

Stern...I'm not sure how he acquired all the power he had, but I have to assume that the players gave it him because the league was in real bad shape in the last few years of the O'Brien era...the league had a coke problem, Rudy T. was blasted in the face in a fight, finals on tape delay...it was hot mess.

Stern ruled with the iron fist, got the league back on stable footing with a decent TV contract, etc...the league is certainly different, but I don't think it's ruined and I'm not even a hardcore NBA guy anymore...just too many games to hold my interest for a whole season...playoffs...I can work with that. I agree the expansion hurt, just as it did with the NHL.

Yeah, I used to blame MJ too, especially when I was coaching high school basketball and all these kids came thinking they were the next MJ.

Over the years though, I learned more about how the league was marketed and changed my stance on MJ. Stern did a good job early on. As you say, the league was in bad shape when he took over. I remember watching the Lakers play the Sixers in the finals at 11:30pm in Magic's rookie season because of the tape delay.

Imo, Stern just got full of himself, decided he could do no wrong and couldn't be questioned. In the end, that was what caused him to become so unpopular.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yeah, I used to blame MJ too, especially when I was coaching high school basketball and all these kids came thinking they were the next MJ.

Over the years though, I learned more about how the league was marketed and changed my stance on MJ. Stern did a good job early on. As you say, the league was in bad shape when he took over. I remember watching the Lakers play the Sixers in the finals at 11:30pm in Magic's rookie season because of the tape delay.

Imo, Stern just got full of himself, decided he could do no wrong and couldn't be questioned. In the end, that was what caused him to become so unpopular.

Yep...that's back when I would watch Laker games on the east coast and go to bed @ 2...and up @ 5 to catch my train into NY...but that finals game, Kareem (Cap as Magic used to call him) got hurt the game before and Magic played PG, C, & Forward...put on a show...but I digress.

Yes...somewhere along the way Stern got a case of the Napoleon maybe, I really felt he was controlling way more that what he should've been..such as disallowing the CP3 deal...THAT was waaay too heavy handed.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yep...that's back when I would watch Laker games on the east coast and go to bed @ 2...and up @ 5 to catch my train into NY...but that finals game, Kareem (Cap as Magic used to call him) got hurt the game before and Magic played PG, C, & Forward...put on a show...but I digress.

Yes...somewhere along the way Stern got a case of the Napoleon maybe, I really felt he was controlling way more that what he should've been..such as disallowing the CP3 deal...THAT was waaay too heavy handed.

Yeah, I understand the why behind him vetoing that trade, but I agree that he overstepped his bounds. What was really curious was the timing of it. The trade got all the way to the point that it was announced and he didn't step in until Gilbert and Cuban cried.

Basically, he bowed to the pressure of a couple of crying owners and then tried to claim it was for "basketball reasons" when it was clearly about money (Dan Gilberts welfare check and the overall value of the Hornets).

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yeah, I understand the why behind him vetoing that trade, but I agree that he overstepped his bounds. What was really curious was the timing of it. The trade got all the way to the point that it was announced and he didn't step in until Gilbert and Cuban cried.

Basically, he bowed to the pressure of a couple of crying owners and then tried to claim it was for "basketball reasons" when it was clearly about money (Dan Gilberts welfare check and the overall value of the Hornets).

See...I never knew why...I just remember it being announced and then, no trade...thanks...water under the bridge now, but I learned something here.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

I DISagree with the ridiculous idea that Michael Jordan ruined basketball. That sounds like sour grapes to the losers in that era - to me. Get over it already - the Bulls won and you lost - Now move on losers - lol. Seriously - one player is not bigger than the game itself - not even when that player is Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. Yes these great athletes has given us hours of entertainment, and yes they did affect the game, but ruined it? NO - THAT'S JUST PLAIN SILLY BY THE FANS WHO LOST

Just to be clear on my typo - I disagree with the op's rants

 

[757Hokie83]

It isn't Jordan, the culture of youth basketball is the problem.

Instead of developing fundamental skills, like they used to, players spend all spring/summer traveling around the country playing in glorified pick ups games (AAU). The focus of these AAU tournaments is more about exposure for the individual player than it is about team success.

For this reason, many of our most talented players don't really know how to play when they graduate high school. The AAU culture is more to blame than the NBA's marketing strategy, but that surely plays a part too.

 

[tzorn10]

You don't even get what I am saying. A lot of the body to body contact that occurs on drives to the rim today would have been called a foul in the 80s, and even the 90s. Now it is play on.

Again, you reference the hard fouls and the fighting and say that it was a man's game because of it. I call .
Back then, a touch foul and a decapitation had the same result. 2 shots. The league smartly decided that they needed to do away with all the fighting, so they made stricter rules regarding the hard fouls, since A obviously leads to B.

While it is true that many players back then were old school tough, you could get away with being a soft skill player back then also. Today, you can't. If your body is not big enough and strong enough to accept the physical pounding that occurs on routine plays, then you no longer get bailed out with a referees whistle like players did back then. The rule changes allow for more physical contact on drives resulting in a no call. The result has actually led to the valuation of the raw, unskilled athlete over the less athletic skill player. Part of the issue in our game today is the lack of fundamental skills and the more physical play that I am talking about plays a role in it.

The way that referees view incidental contact in basketball has changed significantly over the years and it now favors bigger and stronger players more than ever before. If you are referencing the flagrant fouls and the fighting, then we are not talking about the same thing.

Yeah, I can see that we're just not going to agree on this. I'm in the exact opposite mindset that you are in. I still believe that these touch fouls you speak of were hardly called or didn't exist as you think they did. Heck, in todays game you can't even put a hand on somebody or it gets called. Back then, you went through an entire game getting mauled or had an elbow in your back. You know what. You either adjusted or you failed. Funny too how the players in the 70's and 80's kept the fundamental skills throughout that process. You would be hard pressed to find an NBA guard back then that couldn't hit a 15 to 20 footer on a consistent bases or knew how to give up the rock. Shooting guards could actually shoot, and lets not even talk about centers. Every single team back then had a decent big man. Every single one of them. How many are there today? What happened? Thats why I say the top teams in the 80's would have beat the shit out of Jordans Bulls teams regardless of Michael or not.

I remember watching Jordan play and it did get a little frustrating whenever somebody would look at him wrong and a foul would be called. I don't remember it ever being that bad with Magic, Bird, the Doc, or any of the other superstars of those years. They would get the close calls, but damn, they didn't live on the line.

Peace to you. We are not going to see eye to eye on this.

 

[Steelboy84]

Michael Jordan is one of the four greatest men to ever walk this Earth, so you hush up.