Devin Hester Just broke the Record!

[Dirk]

I wonder if there is a "targets/game" metric on them. That is another huge factor. Shut down corners eventually stop getting tested and therefore stop racking up picks and defensed passes. It's still a badge of effectiveness. In fact, the best metaphor for this IS DEVIN HESTER as a kick returner. Even when he wasn't returning kicks for TDs, his effectiveness was felt by the offense starting at the 35 or 40 yard line because teams were kicking the ball out of bounds.

I have a theory on "impact players". My theory is there are four different kinds: imbalancers (guys who need to be double teamed every down and turn it into a 11 on 10 game), erasers (guys who can flat out erase an opposing player or a large section of the field), and playmakers (guys who turn picks into pick sixes, or four yard gains into 80 yard TDs, or always execute the perfect pass in the last 2 minutes of a game). Deion was an "eraser"... maybe one of the best at his position ever. Daryl Green? Maybe. Peanut I'd say was a "playmaker" CB... and a dynamite one at that. Dieon was a playmaker as well when the balls were being thrown to him and as a returner. I still think he's a legit GOAT candidate at his position.

My problem with Sanders as the GOAT corner is his massive allergy to tackling. The only problem with that is, he used his strengths to mitigate that weakness VERY VERY well. Everyone in the league knew he didn't want to tackle anyone, yet they still didn't want to test him that much because he could still make you look stupid doing it.

I guess in short I don't want to label him that, but have a damned hard time coming up with reasons not to.

 

[JoeyTourettes]

Good questions love it.
These are the Defensive backs in the HOF. (at least the quick search I did) Feel free to look up stats.

Herb Adderley (CB) 1961-1972
Lem Barney (CB) 1967-1977
Mel Blount (CB) 1970-1983
Willie Brown (CB) 1963-1978
Jack Butler (CB) 1951-59
Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958
Darrell Green (CB) 1983-2002
Mike Haynes (CB) 1976-1989
Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980
Jimmy Johnson (CB) 1961-1976
Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979
Dick (Night Train) Lane (CB) 1952-1965
Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964
Dick LeBeau (CB) 1959-1972
Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994
Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977
Deion Sanders (CB-KR-PR) 1989-2000, 2004-2005
Emmitt Thomas (CB) 1966-1978
Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961
Roger Wehrli 1969-1982
Aeneas Williams (CB/S) 1991-2004
Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972
Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971 Rod Woodson 1987-2003

 

[toooverbearing]

JT- thanks for digging up the list.

One tough part of the debate with CBs is the way the league turned from a run-heavy league to a pass-heavy league. Not only that, but the PI rules have changed so much from era to era it is hard to tell how well a player would have translated.

Just to circle back though... the original tangent on Sanders came from the notion that he was in the HOF because of his return skills. GOAT or not... do most agree he was enshrined for his CB skills?

 

[averagejoe]

Somebody pointed out that he never went for the knockout hit. That's something you rarely see from ANY CBs.

I was referring more to the head-on knock out hit. As a CB, Sanders was sometimes the last line of defense for a RB or TE coming at him with a full head of steam. Many CB and DB would lower their shoulder and go for the tackle. Never saw Sanders do that. He'd try to hog-tie guys down. Teams may not have thrown to Sanders' side, but they certainly ran to his side.

That's fine that you guys think I'm wrong about Sanders. But his lack of aggressiveness on tackles did not make him a complete player to me. Ronnie Lott (before they moved him to DB) and Charles Woodson are at least two CB I feel are more of the prototypical, complete, HOF CB.

 

[averagejoe]

Just to circle back though... the original tangent on Sanders came from the notion that he was in the HOF because of his return skills. GOAT or not... do most agree he was enshrined for his CB skills?

I think his return skills gave him the bump he needed to be enshrined in the HOF. That's my opinion. You can check out Deion's bio on the HOF site. It seems to highlight his return skills above his CB skills.

Hall of Famers » DEION SANDERS

 

[Dirk]

for argument's sake...

Tillman

36 INTs
8 TD's+1 fumble return(9total)
42 FFs
675 return yds

Sanders

53 ints
9 TDs
0 FF
1,331 return yds


A few more picks...double the yards, but overwhelmingly behind in FFs


Someone on here stated that they don't think Tillman is HOF-worthy. I actually think he is. Not first-ballot, but I think he gets in there eventually.

Throw in a couple more categories as well.

Tackles - CT:857(737 solo) / DS:493(473 Solo)*
INT TD - CT:8 / DS: 9
Passes Defended - CT:133 / DS:130**
TFL/STUFF - CT:23 / DS:1
Games Played - CT:156 / DS:188

* Tackles as a stat aren't official until 2001, but from 1994-2000 are supposedly consistent. Pre-'94 seems to be a crapshoot and anyone's guess.


** Now, the Passes defended I could not come up with one site that had them all. One site had data going back to 1990. This was 36 PD for 1990-1992 added to the much easier common total of 94 from 1993-2005. Also couldn't get data from the 1989 season for Sanders.

Now, I'm not saying Tillman was Sanders equal, but if you look on the football field, it isn't a blow out comparison like a Urlacher to Hillenmeyer would be.

Sorry, got really bored today with the daughter home sick.

 

[Dirk]

Hmm, I think Peanut holds up to the last DB enshrined in Aeneas Williams

 

[toooverbearing]

Throw in a couple more categories as well.

Tackles - CT:857(737 solo) / DS:493(473 Solo)*
INT TD - CT:8 / DS: 9
Passes Defended - CT:133 / DS:130**
TFL/STUFF - CT:23 / DS:1
Games Played - CT:156 / DS:188

* Tackles as a stat aren't official until 2001, but from 1994-2000 are supposedly consistent. Pre-'94 seems to be a crapshoot and anyone's guess.


** Now, the Passes defended I could not come up with one site that had them all. One site had data going back to 1990. This was 36 PD for 1990-1992 added to the much easier common total of 94 from 1993-2005. Also couldn't get data from the 1989 season for Sanders.

Now, I'm not saying Tillman was Sanders equal, but if you look on the football field, it isn't a blow out comparison like a Urlacher to Hillenmeyer would be.

Sorry, got really bored today with the daughter home sick.

What I would love to see (but I don't think it exists for older CBs) is the burn rate. Here's a good piece going into the recent draft about how the top CBs in 2014 (including Fuller) ranked in these terms. The burn rate is the number of completions against a CB divided by the number of targets.

2014 Top Cornerback Metrics Breakdown ? Second Round Stats

 

[richig07]

I think his return skills gave him the bump he needed to be enshrined in the HOF. That's my opinion. You can check out Deion's bio on the HOF site. It seems to highlight his return skills above his CB skills.

Hall of Famers » DEION SANDERS

Dude… you are literally either outside of your mind, you were too young to remember seeing him play, or… you NEVER listen to any of the greats when they look back on the greatest defensive players ever to play.

Take your choice.

The VAST majority of former players from his era, consider him the best to ever play. Actually, forget the majority. I don't know that I've heard many people, if ANY, say differently.

If Deion Sanders NEVER EVER returned a kick or a punt in his ENTIRE career. He's a FIRST BALLOT hall of fame vote-in. It's not even a conversation. There is zero argument.

 

[averagejoe]

And it gets nasty. So much for friendly banter. You've just been awarded an NFL franchise. You can select any CB ever. I take it that you're going to be taking your GOAT Sanders. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[richig07]

And it gets nasty. So much for friendly banter. You've just been awarded an NFL franchise. You can select any CB ever. I take it that you're going to be taking your GOAT Sanders. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Nasty? What?

Who got "nasty"?

lol

 

[Dirk]

What I would love to see (but I don't think it exists for older CBs) is the burn rate. Here's a good piece going into the recent draft about how the top CBs in 2014 (including Fuller) ranked in these terms. The burn rate is the number of completions against a CB divided by the number of targets.

2014 Top Cornerback Metrics Breakdown ? Second Round Stats

I would too. Thats the thing, half of these stats weren't around for 3/4 of the century. How many late modern era CB's are actually in the HOF without a switch to S late in their careers or dual threat cb/kr? none.

There are no apples to apples comparisons, and that sucks.

Not to knock players I've never seen, but my dad's Javelin always ran faster than the timeslips I found in his desk in the garage stated, if you know what I mean.

 

[toooverbearing]

I would too. Thats the thing, half of these stats weren't around for 3/4 of the century. How many late modern era CB's are actually in the HOF without a switch to S late in their careers or dual threat cb/kr? none.

There are no apples to apples comparisons, and that sucks.

Not to knock players I've never seen, but my dad's Javelin always ran faster than the timeslips I found in his desk in the garage stated, if you know what I mean.

Actually, the burn rate for Kyle Fuller should be very low tonight. His coverage was VERY good!