Crabtree

[MW49ers5]

I constantly answer your questions. But I'm still waiting - four months later - for you to clarify your statement that Walker, Davis, Morgan, Ginn, and Williams are "on a level equal to or above that of Crabtree." You know, that statement that I somehow took way out of context to mean that you believe that Ginn is a better WR than Crabtree.

Even if I gave you credit for all the BS answers you give, you would still be short A LOT of answers, Crimson.

Okay, so listen-up, remember my response when I justifiably called you a worm (only after you implied the same of me) - Well, go find that post, follow the instructions and you'll be set - It is the same instructions I have been providing for four months.

Here is a clue - this quote is a small part of the context.

"Just for the sake of clarity, I am not saying Ginn is right now better than Crabtree"

Good Luck!

 

[MW49ers5]

MW, simple question after I responded to your questions at some length above: if Ginn has the abilities that you outlined to the extent that you claim, why isn't he our #1 receiver? Why isn't he our clear #2 receiver?

You can find your answer here - if Ginn is as bad as you & Imac are saying, why is he even on our WR depth chart at all?

Just to add a footnote: I thought both you & Imac have been saying he is a #2/#3 WR? And if that is true, then based on how incredible our WR's are, just how far can he be from #1?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Even if I gave you credit for all the BS answers you give, you would still be short A LOT of answers, Crimson.

Okay, so listen-up, remember my response when I justifiably called you a worm (only after you implied the same of me) - Well, go find that post, follow the instructions and you'll be set - It is the same instructions I have been providing for four months.

Here is a clue - this quote is a small part of the context.

"Just for the sake of clarity, I am not saying Ginn is right now better than Crabtree"

Good Luck!

Saying you wormed your way out of a question is not calling you a worm. But leave it to you not to understand the distinction.

Where is that quote coming from? Can you link to the thread?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

You can find your answer here - if Ginn is as bad as you & Imac are saying, why is he even on our WR depth chart at all?

Just to add a footnote: I thought both you & Imac have been saying he is a #2/#3 WR? And if that is true, then based on how incredible our WR's are, just how far can he be from #1?

First, none of this answers the very simple question I posed.

Second, Imac thinks Ginn is much worse than I do. I think he's a tolerable 4th receiver who adds something through his ability to run with the ball, and a very good return man. The latter alone justifies a spot on the team, and we don't have enough roster spots for him not to contribute as a WR.

Third, Ginn has filled the role of the #2/#3 on this team because literally every other receiver who started the season on the roster has missed games due to injury. Edwards may never have been healthy this season. Crabtree wasn't right until the fourth or fifth game. Williams was a young player with no film who started below Ginn on the depth chart before moving ahead of him. There is no doubt in my mind that Crabtree, Morgan, and Williams are all better than Ginn as receivers. And as blockers as far as that goes.

 

[MW49ers5]

Re: his role, Ginn was almost always our second or third receiver this season given the injuries to guys ahead of him. His production in that role was meager.

So if a WR's production is less than what you expect, they suck? Got it!


In three starts, he combined for six receptions and 80 yards without a TD. That's an average of two receptions and 27 yards PER START. That's awful.

Okay, this is precisely why I know/believe that you and Imac DO NOT watch the games but rather you just read articles, look at a stat site, watch some highlights and think you know everything that happened - Just unbelievable!!

Okay, listen up, Crimson & Imac - Ginn started, as a bonafide #2WR two times... (DET & STL)

His start in CLE, you would have known if you had actually watched the game, was for the FIRST PLAY ONLY, which was a 5-yard run by Gore.

The second play of the game was an incomplete pass to Edwards. Smith threw 24 passes in the Cleveland game of which 19 (79%) were distributed between Crabtree (9), Edwards (7) & Davis (3). The other 5 targets were distributed between five different receivers, (Peelle, Sopoaga, Staley, Miller and Ginn). Ginn was on the field for 6 maybe 7 pass plays and his one target was an uncatchable pass.

Thus, in the spirit of integrity, Ginn had TWO statistically measurable starts in which he caught 6 passes for 80 yards, for an average of 13.3/YPC -OR - higher than Crabtree, Edwards, Davis, Williams, Walker, Hunter, et al. Thus, based on the inverse of yours and Imac's ridiculous argument, I am expecting Ginn to be awarded the league MVP.


We threw to him very rarely given the number of snaps he played

Hmmm, so, this would seem to contradict your argument in the other direction, but, I digress. Okay, you know this because you know the following:

A) Precisely how many passing plays he was involved in
B) How many receivers were in each set
C) How many times he was the primary target in those sets
OR
D) You have no clue what you are talking about

I'm choosing D


It was even more rare for him to make a significant play catching the ball.

Hmmm, so the two catches for 24 yards (An 18 yarder over the middle and a 6 yard out) in the DET game to set-up the go ahead FG just before the half weren't big? Okay


The closest he came were a few first down receptions on 3rd down, but he only had a handful of those.

His % of targets on 3rd/4th down was the same as Crabtree's (~35%)
His completion % on 3rd/4th down was the same as Crabtree's (~75%)
His conversion rate was 100% - Crabtree's conversion rate 65%
Hmmm, looks like Ginn knows where the sticks are located and has the speed to drive the defender past them - Crabtree, not so much.


No TDs.

No worries, Crabtree didn't get his first TD until his 23 reception.


Only one reception this season that went for more than 20 yards.

Yep, but it was a beaut!


No receptions in the 4th quarter.

You're right, of his three opportunities, one wasuncatchable, one was dropped and one was batted at the line and Ginn wasn't lucky enough to receive one of Smith's other 65 (~4 average) passes thrown in the 4th quarter - But hey, he was the target of both OT passes.


Only one reception in the red zone.

(Yeah, but it was a nice critical catch on 3rd down - vs. ARZ)


I think he was robbed of a TD against Baltimore

I agree!

but even if that counted it wouldn't change the fact that he very rarely impacted the game as a receiver.

I disagree, but that is okay. One thing it would have done is improved his %YAC to nearly the same level as Crabtree (41% vs 42%) and increased his YPC to 14.75 - Yep, just one catch would have made that much difference.


I don't recall him drawing double coverage deep very often, so he wasn't particularly effective at opening things up for other players, either.

So you don't recall the announcer on the replay of Crabtree's 52yd TD showing Ginn pulling the FS? Hell, I remember that from just watching the game live - another reason I believe you do not watch the games. Anyway, I'll just leave you with this fantasy


As for his snaps on passing plays, that's an inference. I didn't track all his snaps, but in the 10-odd games when he wasn't starting my recollection is that we brought him in primarily on obvious passing downs and to run the end-around or fly sweep. It could be that's mistaken, though I rather doubt it.

You doubt it - Here are the #'s

Smith pass distribution by down:

1st Dn - 38.4%
2nd Dn - 31.0%
3rd Dn - 28.8%
4th Dn - 1.8%

Ginn's playing time distribution by down:

1st Dn - 35.6%
2nd Dn - 34.9%
3rd Dn - 55.8%
4th Dn - 38.5%

I'll let you figure out what these numbers reflect.


One-handed catch:

Ginn made his in bounds vs. Dallas @ 3:38 in the 1st Qtr. Route was a shallow cross. Ball was thrown behind Ginn running L/R, Ginn reached back with one hand and pulled the pass into his other hand.


Compliments on routes - Ginn 2

Aikman, vs. Giants - Defender Coe, Complimented Ginn on using his speed to create seperation. (me) Ginn just absolutely raped Coe on a Sluggo-out route.

Ryan, vs. Rams - Wheel-out route "Ted Ginn's speed, he just had the corner spun in circles on the initial route".


Compliments of pass catching - 1

Billick vs. Dallas


Hook Zone targets:

Ginn: 12.1%
Crab: 8.8%

Hook Zone Comp %

Ginn: 75%
Crabtree: 60%


Looking back: - I'm not in the mood to give you a tutorial on route running technique or strategy - trust me, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Rounding Breaks: - See "looking back" explanation

 

[Flyingiguana]

why is this crap still going on? ginn isn't a starting wr in the nfl. when kyle williams beats u out on the depth charts u know u suck.

it doesn't get much more simple than that.

 

[CalamityX11]

KW could be a good WR is this league IMO... that slot role is his.

 

[MW49ers5]

KW could be a good WR is this league IMO... that slot role is his.

You and I and I think a few others caught on to Williams right out of pre-season...I hope he is 100% on Saturday...

 

[Crimsoncrew]

MW, simple question after I responded to your questions at some length above: if Ginn has the abilities that you outlined to the extent that you claim, why isn't he our #1 receiver? Why isn't he our clear #2 receiver?

Still looking for an answer to this.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Re: his role, Ginn was almost always our second or third receiver this season given the injuries to guys ahead of him. His production in that role was meager.

So if a WR's production is less than what you expect, they suck? Got it!

A WR might underperform for any variety of reasons. I don't see many reasons excusing the paltry numbers Ginn put up this season, other than the offense itself. Of course, if our receivers were more effective, perhaps we would have thrown more.

In three starts, he combined for six receptions and 80 yards without a TD. That's an average of two receptions and 27 yards PER START. That's awful.

Okay, this is precisely why I know/believe that you and Imac DO NOT watch the games but rather you just read articles, look at a stat site, watch some highlights and think you know everything that happened - Just unbelievable!!

Okay, listen up, Crimson & Imac - Ginn started, as a bonafide #2WR two times... (DET & STL)

His start in CLE, you would have known if you had actually watched the game, was for the FIRST PLAY ONLY, which was a 5-yard run by Gore.

The second play of the game was an incomplete pass to Edwards. Smith threw 24 passes in the Cleveland game of which 19 (79%) were distributed between Crabtree (9), Edwards (7) & Davis (3). The other 5 targets were distributed between five different receivers, (Peelle, Sopoaga, Staley, Miller and Ginn). Ginn was on the field for 6 maybe 7 pass plays and his one target was an uncatchable pass.

As far as not watching the games, that's BS and you know it. I don't have a photographic memory, nor do I record every play and personnel package. Re: the Cleveland game, I can't remember how many plays Ginn was in for. I do recall that it was Edwards' first game back from injury, but he got far more looks than Ginn did. Why did that happen if Ginn is so good?

Thus, in the spirit of integrity, Ginn had TWO statistically measurable starts in which he caught 6 passes for 80 yards, for an average of 13.3/YPC -OR - higher than Crabtree, Edwards, Davis, Williams, Walker, Hunter, et al. Thus, based on the inverse of yours and Imac's ridiculous argument, I am expecting Ginn to be awarded the league MVP.

If we eliminate one of Ginn's starts, he still only had 80 yards and no TDs. 40 yards per start is something, but it's not exactly stellar for a starting receiver. Given that 1/3 of that came on his biggest play of the season, at least in terms of yardage, I don't see that it's any surprise that he averaged 13.3 YPC as a starter. YET AGAIN, if Ginn is so good, why didn't he start more? Why didn't he get more looks?

We threw to him very rarely given the number of snaps he played

Hmmm, so, this would seem to contradict your argument in the other direction, but, I digress. Okay, you know this because you know the following:

A) Precisely how many passing plays he was involved in
B) How many receivers were in each set
C) How many times he was the primary target in those sets
OR
D) You have no clue what you are talking about

I'm choosing D

I don't see any contradiction with my prior points, but feel free to explain. I haven't tracked Ginn's numbers, but we didn't put three receivers out there much on running downs. If you have numbers re: how many running plays vs. passing plays Ginn was in on, please enlighten us.

It was even more rare for him to make a significant play catching the ball.

Hmmm, so the two catches for 24 yards (An 18 yarder over the middle and a 6 yard out) in the DET game to set-up the go ahead FG just before the half weren't big? Okay

I said it was rare, not that it didn't happen. The fact that your retort is to cite two first-half receptions is telling.

The closest he came were a few first down receptions on 3rd down, but he only had a handful of those.

His % of targets on 3rd/4th down was the same as Crabtree's (~35%)
His completion % on 3rd/4th down was the same as Crabtree's (~75%)
His conversion rate was 100% - Crabtree's conversion rate 65%
Hmmm, looks like Ginn knows where the sticks are located and has the speed to drive the defender past them - Crabtree, not so much.

They are the same percentage in terms of the catches each player made, but Crabtree caught nearly four times as many balls on third down. He was our go-to guy on third down and he drew the D's attention accordingly.

No TDs.

No worries, Crabtree didn't get his first TD until his 23 reception.

And Crabtree's performance in terms of TDs was disappointing this season.

Only one reception this season that went for more than 20 yards.

Yep, but it was a beaut!

Seriously? Compelling response.

No receptions in the 4th quarter.

You're right, of his three opportunities, one wasuncatchable, one was dropped and one was batted at the line and Ginn wasn't lucky enough to receive one of Smith's other 65 (~4 average) passes thrown in the 4th quarter - But hey, he was the target of both OT passes.

You keep missing one of my primary points: if Ginn is so good, why didn't we throw to him more often in the fourth quarter? Why didn't we throw to him more often period?

Only one reception in the red zone.

(Yeah, but it was a nice critical catch on 3rd down - vs. ARZ)

Again, seriously? Oh, well just so long as it was a critical catch.

I think he was robbed of a TD against Baltimore

I agree!

but even if that counted it wouldn't change the fact that he very rarely impacted the game as a receiver.

I disagree, but that is okay. One thing it would have done is improved his %YAC to nearly the same level as Crabtree (41% vs 42%) and increased his YPC to 14.75 - Yep, just one catch would have made that much difference.

I'm sure that one catch would have made a big difference in his averages. That's because he put up such poor numbers that one play could easily affect them. I don't see how this supports your argument at all.

I don't recall him drawing double coverage deep very often, so he wasn't particularly effective at opening things up for other players, either.

So you don't recall the announcer on the replay of Crabtree's 52yd TD showing Ginn pulling the FS? Hell, I remember that from just watching the game live - another reason I believe you do not watch the games. Anyway, I'll just leave you with this fantasy

No, I don't remember that. But again, I said "very often," not never. One example doesn't defeat my claim.

As for his snaps on passing plays, that's an inference. I didn't track all his snaps, but in the 10-odd games when he wasn't starting my recollection is that we brought him in primarily on obvious passing downs and to run the end-around or fly sweep. It could be that's mistaken, though I rather doubt it.

You doubt it - Here are the #'s

Smith pass distribution by down:

1st Dn - 38.4%
2nd Dn - 31.0%
3rd Dn - 28.8%
4th Dn - 1.8%

Ginn's playing time distribution by down:

1st Dn - 35.6%
2nd Dn - 34.9%
3rd Dn - 55.8%
4th Dn - 38.5%

I'll let you figure out what these numbers reflect.

Those numbers don't mean much of anything in and of themselves. So Ginn was in on 55.8% of third downs and we only threw on 28.8% of those downs. Ginn could have been on the field on every third down passing attempt.

One thing I might not have considered when I made my statement is that Ginn was most effective in the run game, on end-arounds and fly sweeps, and as a decoy when we faked those plays. I would still be shocked if, having been on the field for 40% of pass plays, he wasn't on the field for at least 50% of our passing plays. I don't know where to find those numbers, but let me know and I'll look into it.

One-handed catch:

Ginn made his in bounds vs. Dallas @ 3:38 in the 1st Qtr. Route was a shallow cross. Ball was thrown behind Ginn running L/R, Ginn reached back with one hand and pulled the pass into his other hand.

Wow, he caught a semi-challenging ball. I'm blown away.

Compliments on routes - Ginn 2

Aikman, vs. Giants - Defender Coe, Complimented Ginn on using his speed to create seperation. (me) Ginn just absolutely raped Coe on a Sluggo-out route.

Ryan, vs. Rams - Wheel-out route "Ted Ginn's speed, he just had the corner spun in circles on the initial route".

And two people complimenting his route-running over the course of the season? He must be great in that area.

Compliments of pass catching - 1

Billick vs. Dallas

And Brian Billick said he caught the ball well once. Well then, he must do so all the time, then.

Look, you're missing the point entirely. I'm not saying that Ginn never made good plays. Of course he did. But they were few and far between. Nothing you have said here disputes that. If anything, it reinforces it. You have claimed that Ginn is our best or practically our best receiver in numerous skill areas. If he is so good, why aren't we throwing to him more? Why isn't he on the field more? Why isn't the coach or the QB calling his number?

 

[MW49ers5]

Look, you're missing the point entirely. I'm not saying that Ginn never made good plays. Of course he did. But they were few and far between. Nothing you have said here disputes that. If anything, it reinforces it. You have claimed that Ginn is our best or practically our best receiver in numerous skill areas. If he is so good, why aren't we throwing to him more? Why isn't he on the field more? Why isn't the coach or the QB calling his number?

Crimson, my point was to discover where I was making mistakes on my analysis of Ted Ginn. I had just charted each of Ginn's 33 targets when you made six succinct claims about his skill-sets. How was I supposed to know you didn't have a lick of evidence to support even a single one of your claims; or furthermore, that you had little to no knowledge what-so-fucking-ever of the skills you were criticizing!

I don't know, Crimson, maybe from where you come that is considered an intelligent debating tactic, but from where I come from that is just stupid.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Crimson, my point was to discover where I was making mistakes on my analysis of Ted Ginn. I had just charted each of Ginn's 33 targets when you made six succinct claims about his skill-sets. How was I supposed to know you didn't have a lick of evidence to support even a single one of your claims; or furthermore, that you had little to no knowledge what-so-fucking-ever of the skills you were criticizing!

I don't know, Crimson, maybe from where you come that is considered an intelligent debating tactic, but from where I come from that is just stupid.

Feel free to answer the question that I have asked over and OVER and OVER any time now. Or just continue to evade it. Remind me what it was you were saying about answering questions....

If Ginn possesses the skills you claim to the extent that he does, why is he an afterthought in our passing game?

 

[MW49ers5]

Crimson, my point was to discover where I was making mistakes on my analysis of Ted Ginn. I had just charted each of Ginn's 33 targets when you made six succinct claims about his skill-sets. How was I supposed to know you didn't have a lick of evidence to support even a single one of your claims; or furthermore, that you had little to no knowledge what-so-fucking-ever of the skills you were criticizing!

I don't know, Crimson, maybe from where you come that is considered an intelligent debating tactic, but from where I come from that is just stupid.

Feel free to answer the question that I have asked over and OVER and OVER any time now. Or just continue to evade it. Remind me what it was you were saying about answering questions....

If Ginn possesses the skills you claim to the extent that he does, why is he an afterthought in our passing game?

Good Lord, now he is an afterthought? Poor bastard, it just gets worse and worse for him.

Look, Crimson I am not evading your question I am ignoring it and with good reason. What would be the point of answering a question when the person asking the question does not know the answer themselves?

Dude, listen, you just got done beating the shit out of yourself with a stupid stick over motherfucking routes and now you want to have a debate over football strategy and philosophy - No thanks, I'll pass. You need to go entertain someone else with that conversation.

But hey, thanks again for the insights on why Ted Ginn runs bad routes, those were fucking genius!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Good Lord, now he is an afterthought? Poor bastard, it just gets worse and worse for him.

Look, Crimson I am not evading your question I am ignoring it and with good reason. What would be the point of answering a question when the person asking the question does not know the answer themselves?

Dude, listen, you just got done beating the shit out of yourself with a stupid stick over motherfucking routes and now you want to have a debate over football strategy and philosophy - No thanks, I'll pass. You need to go entertain someone else with that conversation.

But hey, thanks again for the insights on why Ted Ginn runs bad routes, those were fucking genius!

I don't think Ginn is nearly as good as you do, so the question doesn't really apply to me. If you can't answer it, that's fine. Won't be the first time.

 

[MW49ers5]

Crimson, my point was to discover where I was making mistakes on my analysis of Ted Ginn. I had just charted each of Ginn's 33 targets when you made six succinct claims about his skill-sets. How was I supposed to know you didn't have a lick of evidence to support even a single one of your claims; or furthermore, that you had little to no knowledge what-so-fucking-ever of the skills you were criticizing!

I don't know, Crimson, maybe from where you come that is considered an intelligent debating tactic, but from where I come from that is just stupid.

Feel free to answer the question that I have asked over and OVER and OVER any time now. Or just continue to evade it. Remind me what it was you were saying about answering questions....

If Ginn possesses the skills you claim to the extent that he does, why is he an afterthought in our passing game?

Good Lord, now he is an afterthought? Poor bastard, it just gets worse and worse for him.

Look, Crimson I am not evading your question I am ignoring it and with good reason. What would be the point of answering a question when the person asking the question does not know the answer themselves?

Dude, listen, you just got done beating the shit out of yourself with a stupid stick over motherfucking routes and now you want to have a debate over football strategy and philosophy - No thanks, I'll pass. You need to go entertain someone else with that conversation.

But hey, thanks again for the insights on why Ted Ginn runs bad routes, those were fucking genius!

I don't think Ginn is nearly as good as you do, so the question doesn't really apply to me. If you can't answer it, that's fine. Won't be the first time.

If the question and subsequent answer have no application or correlation to your point - then what is the point of asking the question in the first place - seriously? Do you often ask completely random and meaningless questions like this or are you suddenly on a fact finding mission?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

If the question and subsequent answer have no application or correlation to your point - then what is the point of asking the question in the first place - seriously? Do you often ask completely random and meaningless questions like this or are you suddenly on a fact finding mission?

I think Ginn is a below average WR. As such, the question of why he isn't our #1 or #2 is very obvious to me. You clearly think he is much better than I do, so the answer should have meaning to you. Why are you so resistant to answering a simple question? You have completely disparaged me and others for questioning Ginn's ability. If he is so obviously talented, why isn't he our #1 or #2? Why are you being so evasive with what should be such an easy question to answer?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Good Lord, now he is an afterthought? Poor bastard, it just gets worse and worse for him.

Look, Crimson I am not evading your question I am ignoring it and with good reason. What would be the point of answering a question when the person asking the question does not know the answer themselves?

Dude, listen, you just got done beating the shit out of yourself with a stupid stick over motherfucking routes and now you want to have a debate over football strategy and philosophy - No thanks, I'll pass. You need to go entertain someone else with that conversation.

But hey, thanks again for the insights on why Ted Ginn runs bad routes, those were fucking genius!

Btw, returning to the above, you've never asked a question you don't know the answer to yourself?

 

[vvoland]

Good Lord, now he is an afterthought? Poor bastard, it just gets worse and worse for him.

Look, Crimson I am not evading your question I am ignoring it and with good reason. What would be the point of answering a question when the person asking the question does not know the answer themselves?

Dude, listen, you just got done beating the shit out of yourself with a stupid stick over motherfucking routes and now you want to have a debate over football strategy and philosophy - No thanks, I'll pass. You need to go entertain someone else with that conversation.

But hey, thanks again for the insights on why Ted Ginn runs bad routes, those were fucking genius!

i know i'm getting into a fight i was never involved in, but i'm curious as to your opinion. you seem to be pretty detailed in your analysis of the WR position, so while we disagree on ted ginn, i'm interested in hearing a response. in post 150 of this thread, i asked [for the 2nd time] what you think of the WR position on this team, as a whole. whether you're comfortable going into next season with the stable at wideout we have currently, or if you'd look to upgrade.

i had high hopes for ginn and thought this season's injuries at wR gave him a lot of opportunity to prove himself. for whatever reason, he saw very little of the ball ~2 targets per game. i don't want to go into next season with crabtree and ginn as our top 2 receivers and kyle williams as the slot guy. i want a true no 1 [blackmon, aj green, dez bryant, to name the three best young ones], crabby at the 2 spot and williams in the slot. if we have that, our offense takes a leap forward and ginn would be nice in a 4 wideout set running the deep out, reverse, or sideline route. and of course as at return man. do you disagree?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

When have I ever not explained my position?

Oh, and MW, you're doing it right now.

 

[MW49ers5]

Oh, and MW, you're doing it right now.

Crimson, there is way too much miscommunication between you and myself and this response appears to be pointing toward just another example of that...