Comedy gold out of Edmonton

[DragonfromTO]

Steve Yzerman won the Pearson in 88-89, with both Gretzky and Lemieux in their prime years. His peers thought he was pretty damn good.

Sakic won it in 2000-01.

So I'd say yes they were considered, arguably, the best in the league at one point in their career.

If you'd asked someone (pretty much anyone) in 1989 who the best player in the NHL was (not who'd just finished the best season) it's incredibly unlikely that they would have said Steve Yzerman.

I think the players (and the writers too I think) get tired of giving the awards to the same guys. I think that's how you get things like the Pearson nonsense with Gretzky that I mentioned earlier.

I mean, Michael Jordan lost MVPs to Charles Barkley and Karl Malone in his prime. But no one thought that he wasn't still the best player in the league.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I think using the Pearson/Lindsay award as an argument point here is kind of counter-productive - Ovechkin won it from 2008-2010, while Crosby was playing for 2 Cups and winning a gold medal. I think we would all agree that Crosby was the better player at the time despite what his peers believed.

The team argument is one that I hate.

For example... while Crosby was winning Lindsays from 2012-2014, Kopitar was busy winning 2 Cups, so there's that...

I'll take the opinions of actual NHL players over a team accomplishment when I'm assessing who the better player was in a given year.

Also OV's 65 goal season is the best individual season in the NHL in some time, IMO. He was the most dominant player in the league that year, hands down.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

If you'd asked someone (pretty much anyone) in 1989 who the best player in the NHL was (not who'd just finished the best season) it's incredibly unlikely that they would have said Steve Yzerman.

I think the players (and the writers too I think) get tired of giving the awards to the same guys. I think that's how you get things like the Pearson nonsense with Gretzky that I mentioned earlier.

I mean, Michael Jordan lost MVPs to Charles Barkley and Karl Malone in his prime. But no one thought that he wasn't still the best player in the league.

All true. Michael Jordan won more than he lost though. I think you'd be hard pressed that people are getting tired of handing out trophies to Sid. That isn't why he isn't winning these awards. At all.

As for the Gretzky argument that kind of strengthens my argument, don't you think? Crosby just hasn't done anything like that for even a single season.

 

[DragonfromTO]

This is pretty much where we are right now with Toews, no?

Please don't start this "Toews is the best player in the world" hogwash, I don't have the patience for it right now

But yes, Toews is an example of a guy who rates higher overall than he does in any individual season because of his consistency. In baseball I think of Craig Biggio, who most people never thought of as "great" but put together a "great" career.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

All true. Michael Jordan won more than he lost though. I think you'd be hard pressed that people are getting tired of handing out trophies to Sid. That isn't why he isn't winning these awards. At all.

As for the Gretzky argument that kind of strengthens my argument, don't you think? Crosby just hasn't done anything like that for even a single season.

There was also 10 fewer teams and a world and a half less worth of talent in Gretzky's and Orr's days.

That's why era comparisons never pan out to me. Just too many intangibles.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

There was also 10 fewer teams and a world and a half less worth of talent in Gretzky's and Orr's days.

That's why era comparisons never pan out to me. Just too many intangibles.

Agreed but only 2 guys really took advantage of that.

GENERATIONAL!!!

 

[DragonfromTO]

All true. Michael Jordan won more than he lost though. I think you'd be hard pressed that people are getting tired of handing out trophies to Sid. That isn't why he isn't winning these awards. At all.

As for the Gretzky argument that kind of strengthens my argument, don't you think? Crosby just hasn't done anything like that for even a single season.

The point was that personal feelings always go into the voting and therefore awards aren't a particularly objective measure, not that the voters were tired of giving Sid awards.

 

[forty_three]

John Leclair wasn't chopped liver. And Jagr played without Lemieux for part of that stretch while Lemieux was retired.

That being said, I'm not sure that Lindros wasn't looked at as a "generational" player at the time anyway. It's easy to look back now and say that he wasn't knowing what we know about the latter half of his career.

Was just pointing out that Jagr and Lemieux consistently had less weight to carry individually. It's the same as when comparing OV and Crosby. You really can't apples to apples because Malkin. When they are together, they are deadly. When separate, they get different D to face.

And Lindros was viewed as the "Next One" pretty much since his 14th birthday. He wasn't quite the media darling the NHL wanted him to be, but he absolutely came in with the expectations of the world on his back. And he went too hard and tried to live up to too much, and ultimately did himself a disservice.

I made the Crosby/Lindros comparison early on in Crosby's career as something for him to learn from (and boy did I stir up shit at the swamp for it). I still can't think of a better comparison for Crosby than Lindros. Very similar IMO. Both dominant talents with the ability to singlehandedly change the outcome of any game (and the fortunes of a franchise/city). Both not consistently achieving potential due to injury, and largely hated for things they can't control (public opinion).

Ironically, one reason Crosby has a cup is because he was drafted the year after another major talent on the same team. Lindros was the year after Owen Nolan. Imagine if they played together (and with Sakic) in Quebec...

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The team argument is one that I hate.

For example... while Crosby was winning Lindsays from 2012-2014, Kopitar was busy winning 2 Cups, so there's that...

I'll take the opinions of actual NHL players over a team accomplishment when I'm assessing who the better player was in a given year.

Also OV's 65 goal season is the best individual season in the NHL in some time, IMO. He was the most dominant player in the league that year, hands down.

It wasn't (and isn't) on OV that Washington hasn't had playoff success, but Crosby was a big reason for 2 Cup appearances at the very least.

I don't know. It seemed pretty evident to me that Crosby was the better player during those years, 65 goals aside. Stamkos also hit 60 a few years ago but I don't think we're putting him in this convo at this point (and, sadly, probably ever).

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Was just pointing out that Jagr and Lemieux consistently had less weight to carry individually. It's the same as when comparing OV and Crosby. You really can't apples to apples because Malkin. When they are together, they are deadly. When separate, they get different D to face.

And Lindros was viewed as the "Next One" pretty much since his 14th birthday. He wasn't quite the media darling the NHL wanted him to be, but he absolutely came in with the expectations of the world on his back. And he went too hard and tried to live up to too much, and ultimately did himself a disservice.

I made the Crosby/Lindros comparison early on in Crosby's career as something for him to learn from (and boy did I stir up shit at the swamp for it). I still can't think of a better comparison for Crosby than Lindros. Very similar IMO. Both dominant talents with the ability to singlehandedly change the outcome of any game (and the fortunes of a franchise/city). Both not consistently achieving potential due to injury, and largely hated for things they can't control (public opinion).

Ironically, one reason Crosby has a cup is because he was drafted the year after another major talent on the same team. Lindros was the year after Owen Nolan. Imagine if they played together (and with Sakic) in Quebec...

Crosby hasn't skated regularly with Malkin since 2009. If he had, I'm guessing he'd be averaging another 10-15 pts per season than he has in the past 5 years.

And while Lindros didn't play with Nolan and Sakic, a certain Swede did and it worked out pretty well.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Agreed but only 2 guys really took advantage of that.

GENERATIONAL!!!

Well, when you consider that Crosby has the highest P/GP in the past 10 years at 1.37 and in the 80s that would be 8th on the list, seems like quite a few players took advantage of it. By the time the 90s rolled around Gretzky was averaging the same P/GP as Crosby.

 

[DragonfromTO]

All true. Michael Jordan won more than he lost though. I think you'd be hard pressed that people are getting tired of handing out trophies to Sid. That isn't why he isn't winning these awards. At all.

As for the Gretzky argument that kind of strengthens my argument, don't you think? Crosby just hasn't done anything like that for even a single season.

I'm not suggesting that Sid is to hockey what Michael was to basketball. But he doesn't have to be to make this point. There are plenty of guys that no one would argue aren't "generational" basketball players that don't measure up to Jordan either.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Please don't start this "Toews is the best player in the world" hogwash, I don't have the patience for it right now

But yes, Toews is an example of a guy who rates higher overall than he does in any individual season because of his consistency. In baseball I think of Craig Biggio, who most people never thought of as "great" but put together a "great" career.

Not "best". I mean, I don't know who's best right now. I guess it's still Sid?

But if I were starting my team from scratch, Toews is my #1 pick.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Not "best". I mean, I don't know who's best right now. I guess it's still Sid?

But if I were starting my team from scratch, Toews is my #1 pick.

I'd be very happy picking #2 then I guess.

Toews is actually a guy that probably compares better with Sakic and Yzerman than Crosby does.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I'd be very happy picking #2 then I guess.

Toews is actually a guy that probably compares better with Sakic and Yzerman than Crosby does.

I think you're being pretty complimentary to Mr. Toews.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Never knew Toews wasn't rated as highly by you guys. Any particular reasons? Is it simply a matter of goal scoring?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

He's an excellent player but I don't think he produces enough to be mentioned alongside the Crosby's and OV.

Getting a little sick of hearing about all his intangibles too.

 

[dash]

He's an excellent player but I don't think he produces enough to be mentioned alongside the Crosby's and OV.

Getting a little sick of hearing about all his intangibles too.

Careful you don't step on his toes, toews, toes.

/We love the Hawks, yes we really love the Hawks, we just found out 'bout the Hawks this year.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think you're being pretty complimentary to Mr. Toews.

Well yeah, I was talking more about his position in the pecking order.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Never knew Toews wasn't rated as highly by you guys. Any particular reasons? Is it simply a matter of goal scoring?

As highly as what? How fuckstick Steve Simmons rates him?