Coffee Talk V: The Final Battle

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I am not overly familiar with San Francisco and it's crime problem but I have read that most studies show no real correlation between larger amounts of police and lessening crime.

Either way, this goes against most people's common sense ideas so it does look bad.

In general, violent crimes are still trending downward. Murders are definitely up everywhere but how much of that is due to less policing is up for debate.

But in many of these places along with cutting budgets they also had DA’s who decided to stop prosecuting a bunch of smaller crimes that’s led to a sense of lawlessness and now the DA’s aren’t going back to prosecuting them so they want the police to arrest them and…release them, repeatedly, I guess?

Just worth pointing out though these idiots all listened to mob rule and a year later they’re all going right back to square one. Months of protests and big talk and the second the crime starts happening in the whiter, fancier parts of town it’s “omg more police now!”.

 

[Comeds]

In general, violent crimes are still trending downward. Murders are definitely up everywhere but how much of that is due to less policing is up for debate.

But in many of these places along with cutting budgets they also had DA’s who decided to stop prosecuting a bunch of smaller crimes that’s led to a sense of lawlessness and now the DA’s aren’t going back to prosecuting them so they want the police to arrest them and…release them, repeatedly, I guess?

Just worth pointing out though these idiots all listened to mob rule and a year later they’re all going right back to square one. Months of protests and big talk and the second the crime starts happening in the whiter, fancier parts of town it’s “omg more police now!”.

In addition to DAs not prosecuting smaller crimes you also have numerous police departments using "catch and release"* or similar tactics to perhaps quickly knock down crime rates but in doing so they antagonize the community and create distrust between the community and the police department. Then when someone is arrested for something, even something violent and terrible, no one "sees" anything and its easy to sway jurors that the police are corrupt so they do not find defendants guilty. Not to mention witnesses who have come forward only to have police try to put the crime on them. Or the civil forfeiture tactics that so many departments seem to use. Basically if the police and citizens have a largely antagonistic relationship with each other, crimes are not going to go down in the long run.

Cut the budgets for the paramilitary vehicles and equipment and leave the number of officers the same. That's what I always heard "defund the police" meant.

*grab people off the streets, or a corner, and lock them up overnight or over the weekend then releasing them uncharged.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

In addition to DAs not prosecuting smaller crimes you also have numerous police departments using "catch and release"* or similar tactics to perhaps quickly knock down crime rates but in doing so they antagonize the community and create distrust between the community and the police department. Then when someone is arrested for something, even something violent and terrible, no one "sees" anything and its easy to sway jurors that the police are corrupt so they do not find defendants guilty. Not to mention witnesses who have come forward only to have police try to put the crime on them. Or the civil forfeiture tactics that so many departments seem to use. Basically if the police and citizens have a largely antagonistic relationship with each other, crimes are not going to go down in the long run.

Cut the budgets for the paramilitary vehicles and equipment and leave the number of officers the same. That's what I always heard "defund the police" meant.

*grab people off the streets, or a corner, and lock them up overnight or over the weekend then releasing them uncharged.

I always heard the paramilitary vehicles were mostly given to departments as army surplus from the good ol war days?

 

[forty_three]

I always heard the paramilitary vehicles were mostly given to departments as army surplus from the good ol war days?

Not officially given but sold to them as surplus (read: unused) equipment by the pentagon with money given to local PDs by the DHS to update the security around important infrastructure.

And some local forces actually used that money on other things than armored troop transporters. Maybe like 8 of them nationwide. My town shored up security around our Hydroelectric Dam. And made their HQ much prettier.

 

[returnofjakedog]

In general, violent crimes are still trending downward. Murders are definitely up everywhere but how much of that is due to less policing is up for debate.

But in many of these places along with cutting budgets they also had DA’s who decided to stop prosecuting a bunch of smaller crimes that’s led to a sense of lawlessness and now the DA’s aren’t going back to prosecuting them so they want the police to arrest them and…release them, repeatedly, I guess?

Just worth pointing out though these idiots all listened to mob rule and a year later they’re all going right back to square one. Months of protests and big talk and the second the crime starts happening in the whiter, fancier parts of town it’s “omg more police now!”.

In addition to DAs not prosecuting smaller crimes you also have numerous police departments using "catch and release"* or similar tactics to perhaps quickly knock down crime rates but in doing so they antagonize the community and create distrust between the community and the police department. Then when someone is arrested for something, even something violent and terrible, no one "sees" anything and its easy to sway jurors that the police are corrupt so they do not find defendants guilty. Not to mention witnesses who have come forward only to have police try to put the crime on them. Or the civil forfeiture tactics that so many departments seem to use. Basically if the police and citizens have a largely antagonistic relationship with each other, crimes are not going to go down in the long run.

Cut the budgets for the paramilitary vehicles and equipment and leave the number of officers the same. That's what I always heard "defund the police" meant.

*grab people off the streets, or a corner, and lock them up overnight or over the weekend then releasing them uncharged.

The root of the problem isn't lack of prosecution of lesser crimes or catch and release tactics, etc.
This goes back to a myriad of issues, including a for-profit prison system that pushed to have as many as possible locked up for decades, then everyone acts surprised when there is a lack of capacity for the system to be able to handle the excessive prosecutions and incarcerations.
As to why the "petty" crime is up in general? Well, there is always going to be a percentage criminal element regardless but when society reaches a breaking point because of major inequalities in the seperation of classes, then crime is going to rise (somewhat out of necessity, but also from perceived societal slights).

When society stops "caring" about (for) segments of it's populace, then that segment will stop caring about society.

The SF major isn't wrong when she states that the burden of mental health support shouldn't be on the police. But Regan gutted all governmental mental health support (late '60s in Cali, in the '80s in the rest of the USA) and shifted the burden onto the states, who in turn somewhat largely (depending on the specific location) pushed it onto local levels.
As far as the homeless population goes, the mental health and drug issues coupled with a waining economy and a societial system that doesn't give a shit means it will only continue to worsen unless drastic steps are taken.
Thus, 30 some years later, the entire country is fucked.

It is sadly hilarious to see people blindly support a broken system, while bitching about the issues that the same system has created.

Which is it people? You can't have it both ways. Either you have to fix the system, or you have to accept the outcome of the system's failings as well as it's positives.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The SF major isn't wrong when she states that the burden of mental health support shouldn't be on the police. But Regan gutted all governmental mental health support (late '60s in Cali, in the '80s in the rest of the USA) and shifted the burden onto the states, who in turn somewhat largely (depending on the specific location) pushed it onto local levels.
As far as the homeless population goes, the mental health and drug issues coupled with a waining economy and a societial system that doesn't give a shit means it will only continue to worsen unless drastic steps are taken.
Thus, 30 some years later, the entire country is fucked.

This happened and is a major factor but it needs some contemporary nuance. In that era the mental institutions were increasingly looked upon as detrimental to the care of those in need, mainly due to abuse scandals but also in large part due to pharmaceuticals to help treat depression and mental illness becoming widely available. There was a lot of activism and community organizing to shut them down and that was a major reason governments of all stripes eventually did so. JFK played a huge part in getting this rolling, much moreso than Ronald Reagan.

Of course what they "replaced" them with wasn't exactly the Rolls Royce of care and that contributed massively to the growth of homelessness that plagues major cities to this day but at the time it was seen as doing the humane thing both by mental health professionals and the public at large.

 

[returnofjakedog]

This happened and is a major factor but it needs some contemporary nuance. In that era the mental institutions were increasingly looked upon as detrimental to the care of those in need, mainly due to abuse scandals but also in large part due to pharmaceuticals to help treat depression and mental illness becoming widely available. There was a lot of activism and community organizing to shut them down and that was a major reason governments of all stripes eventually did so.

Of course what they "replaced" them with wasn't exactly the Rolls Royce of care and that contributed massively to the growth of homelessness that plagues major cities to this day but at the time it was seen as doing the humane thing both by mental health professionals and the public at large.

I agree on most of your post, but regardless of how it was perceived at the time it doesn't change the cause and effect outcome. Yes, the institutional system was flawed but I propose that it was extremely necessary. You can clean up the abuses within the system but to just cut support to the severely mentally ill and release them to fend for themselves was incredibly fucking stupid. They very often have no basis in reality to even be able to recognize their own conditions (read about agnosia- it is detectable as a physical brain condition in the frontal lobe via mri)
You did note "replaced" with quotations, which is an important nuance because there was nothing to replace it.
Additionally there is direct evidence to support that the outcome would be. When Reagan shut down the existing mental health care system in Cali in the late '60s the homeless and prison populations doubled within a year in San Mateo county. So they already knew exactly what would happen when they shut it down nationwide some 15 years later: the mentally ill would be homeless, turn to drugs, and become a huge burden to the justice system and society. They knew this but didn't give a shit about the future health of the nation because..........personal accountability, pull yourself up by hard work, something about get a job you bum.......blah blah blah.

 

[thedddd]

WTF did I just watch?

Seriously the boogeyman that is cancelling Christmas isn't people saying Happy Holidays.

It is the log4j security flaw that IS cancelling Christmas this year or at least for people's time off.

 

[dare2be]

At least we know she isn't racist because she has black roots.

 

[puckhead]

 

[mattola]

well that made me SNORT laugh

 

[dash]

well that made me SNORT laugh

It was Mike Nesmith's mom that invented white out - You might say Boebert is monkeeing around.

 

[dare2be]

WTF did I just watch?

TRIGGERED!

 

[Comeds]

It was Mike Nesmith's mom that invented white out - You might say Boebert is monkeeing around.

No...too soon.

Posts have consequences.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

This gets worse with every paragraph.

AG: Idaho sheriff charged after pulling gun on youth group leaving thank you notes

Investigators say Sheriff Craig Rowland aimed a gun at the group of girls, dragged their adult chaperone from the car by her hair, and threatened to execute her.

www.krem.com

 

[elocomotive]

This gets worse with every paragraph.

AG: Idaho sheriff charged after pulling gun on youth group leaving thank you notes

Investigators say Sheriff Craig Rowland aimed a gun at the group of girls, dragged their adult chaperone from the car by her hair, and threatened to execute her.

www.krem.com

Omg... it really does.
"Yes, I will confirm all the allegations of wrongdoing made by this white woman, but in my defense, I want to remind you that I'm a racist."

I think I know who his lawyer is...

 

[dash]

This gets worse with every paragraph.

AG: Idaho sheriff charged after pulling gun on youth group leaving thank you notes

Investigators say Sheriff Craig Rowland aimed a gun at the group of girls, dragged their adult chaperone from the car by her hair, and threatened to execute her.

www.krem.com

I wonder if someone in the youth group asked him if he has been to the Stampede?

 

[dare2be]

This gets worse with every paragraph.

AG: Idaho sheriff charged after pulling gun on youth group leaving thank you notes

Investigators say Sheriff Craig Rowland aimed a gun at the group of girls, dragged their adult chaperone from the car by her hair, and threatened to execute her.

www.krem.com

Without reading or even opening it. I must say the script for the remake of Brokeback Mountain is terrible.

 

[forty_three]

McConnell Says Public 'Needs To Know' What Happened On Jan. 6

"The fact-finding is interesting. We’re all going to be watching it."

www.huffpost.com

If Mitch is trying to legitimize it, it must mean there is something massive coming out and he wants to get out of the way of the shit splatter when it hits the fan.

 

[forty_three]

Anti-5G necklaces found to be radioactive

Conspiracy theories about 5G have fuelled a market for "anti-5G" accessories.

www.bbc.com