Closers All Time 2 - 10

[MilkSpiller22]

Man I get what you are saying, here's what I know...you take all the guys that have ever closed a game, pick the best team you could, Eck is one of the top 5 guys you're looking at as closer

i am not debating that... only IF you are separating career with peak, he did not have a great CLOSER career...

 

[blstoker]

Didn't say he wasn't a top 10 reliever... On the first page Nos, did not mention RP like Hoyt wilhelm, because he was not a "closer"... so then we are to assume that this whole thread is only for closers, and not for RP... then when we started differentiating between peak and career, how can you include a pitcher whose career as closer was ONLY his peak and only 4 seasons, with ONLY 2 great ones...

Explain your reasoning that he had only 2 great seasons. Hell, he won the MVP & Cy Young in what is arguably his 3rd best season. Statistically, he had 5 good years as a closer - 4 really good year - 3 great years and what is arguably the greatest season a closer had every had. Over his 5 year peak (1988-1992) he had a 1.90 ERA , 0.792 WHIP and a 90% save %, and this at a time when a good closer saved 75% of his games, had an ERA of 3.00 and a WHIP of 1.2000.

 

[blstoker]

i am not debating that... only IF you are separating career with peak, he did not have a great CLOSER career...

Despite being retired for nearly 20 years - and spending less than half his career has a closer - he's still ranked 6th all time in saves, and none of the guys higher than him spent less time as a closer. Eck is a top 10 closer.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Despite being retired for nearly 20 years - and spending less than half his career has a closer - he's still ranked 6th all time in saves, and none of the guys higher than him spent less time as a closer. Eck is a top 10 closer.

Saves is only one part of being a closer... Jim Johnson lead the league 2 years in a row in saves, but nobody talks about his peak because his ERA and WHIP sucked... Eckersley had a 5 season peak, sure, but only 3 of them had a GREAT ERA and WHIP... the rest of his career as closer he was average at best in ERA and WHIP...

if you are to say that he is a top 5 closer that you would want on your team, definitely... If you want to say he is a top reliever of all time, definitely... But once you differentiate peak and Career, and say that the player HAS to be a closer(the way way we see it now- since Hoyt Wilhelm is not in the mix), then i just don't see how you can put him in a career list... Not over Papelbon, Nathan, and some others...

 

[UK Cowboy]

Saves is only one part of being a closer... Jim Johnson lead the league 2 years in a row in saves, but nobody talks about his peak because his ERA and WHIP sucked... Eckersley had a 5 season peak, sure, but only 3 of them had a GREAT ERA and WHIP... the rest of his career as closer he was average at best in ERA and WHIP...

if you are to say that he is a top 5 closer that you would want on your team, definitely... If you want to say he is a top reliever of all time, definitely... But once you differentiate peak and Career, and say that the player HAS to be a closer(the way way we see it now- since Hoyt Wilhelm is not in the mix), then i just don't see how you can put him in a career list... Not over Papelbon, Nathan, and some others...

Pap and Nathan ahead of Eck? Milky....

 

[broncosmitty]

Man I get what you are saying, here's what I know...you take all the guys that have ever closed a game, pick the best team you could, Eck is one of the top 5 guys you're looking at as closer

I think Eck gets overrated immensely because of personality and his team's success.

And I'm putting two guys I never saw play ahead of him.

How the hell did milk not see Eck pitch? No TV till college?

 

[broncosmitty]

Despite being retired for nearly 20 years - and spending less than half his career has a closer - he's still ranked 6th all time in saves, and none of the guys higher than him spent less time as a closer. Eck is a top 10 closer.

Should total saves be a factor?

It's completely out of a closers control as to how many save opportunities he gets.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Should total saves be a factor?

It's completely out of a closers control as to how many save opportunities he gets.

I think you couldn't be farther off on this, especially the overrated part. Eck had 390 saves....and he didn't go to the pen until he was 32 LMAO!. He was in his 13th year in the League after being a solid starter. He pitched until he was 43, during which he had perhaps the greatest season ever by a closer, and one of the most dominant 5 year stretches. Did he fall off a little bit in his early 40's LOL? Sure, but I could make the argument that if he closed his entire career he might easily have 700-800 saves. Overrated? Come on...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think Eck gets overrated immensely because of personality and his team's success.

And I'm putting two guys I never saw play ahead of him.

How the hell did milk not see Eck pitch? No TV till college?

I saw him pitch but not in his prime... I was 13 when he retired...

 

[broncosmitty]

I saw him pitch but not in his prime... I was 13 when he retired...

I was 17.

I've seen better.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I was 17.

I've seen better.

He was 43...How old is Nathan right now?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Lidge - Lidge was way up and way down. He could get a multi season peak with '04-'05, but his overall numbers those years don't scream kick Mesa off the list. Other than that he had a great year in '08, and everything else ranges from mediocre to atrocious.

Hoffman - He had a magnificent 2 season peak in '98-'99, but his real strength as a closer comes from the fact he was solid at the role for a decade and a half. He'd be higher than KRod, but not sure about Mesa.

Foulke - He was a lot like Hoffman in that he would have a really descent 2 year peak, but otherwise he was just pretty consistent. But, his 2 year peak wasn't nearly as good as Hoffman's, and he only closed for 4 years (at least full time).

Nen - No. His peak is just so hard to nail down. He had 3 really good individual seasons - none as good as Mesa's - but he sandwiched horrible seasons in between them, so they really can't be combined together to create a long term peak. his peaks were high - valleys low, and from season to season you got either or.


So, even adjusting for the 6 you listed, I don't think I would take Mesa off the list - or KRod for that matter.

The problem with Mesa is that other than his '95, he had no other shutdown type years. I just can't give that much credit to a guy who allowed as many baserunners as he or K-Rod (both whom never really had dominant WHIPs) did, even if he was able to get out of those jams.

Hoffman from 1996-2000 had a 2.15 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, 4.19 K/BB and saved 91% of his save chances while averaging 77 innings/season...I can't see Mesa with any 3-4 years that on the whole are better than that.

For Foulke, I can't see any 3 seasons for Mesa being collectively better than Foulke's 2001, 2003, 2004 combined.

For Nen, I'd argue his 1998 and 2000 were more dominant than Mesa's best season, and Nen's 1996 was better than whatever Mesa's 2nd and 3rd best seasons were.

Lidge isn't as much of a lock imo as the guys above, but I'd take his 2004 over any of Mesa's seasons (largely because of how many innings Lidge threw that year with over 90, which adds a ton of value). I'd also argue Lidge's 2005 and 2008 over whatever Mesa's 2nd and 3rd best seasons were.

One of the problems with Mesa's best year was that he threw just 64 innings. Granted, it was a strike year, but when you have guys like Foulke, Lidge, Hoffman throwing 80+ innings in their best years, it's definitely a big difference that needs to be factored in.

 

[broncosmitty]

I think you couldn't be farther off on this, especially the overrated part. Eck had 390 saves....and he didn't go to the pen until he was 32 LMAO!. He was in his 13th year in the League after being a solid starter. He pitched until he was 43, during which he had perhaps the greatest season ever by a closer, and one of the most dominant 5 year stretches. Did he fall off a little bit in his early 40's LOL? Sure, but I could make the argument that if he closed his entire career he might easily have 700-800 saves. Overrated? Come on...

Age shouldn't be much of a factor imo. It doesn't make them better or worse at it. I'll give a guy who's career goes long some slack on career rate numbers. (As in make note why they dropped.)But that doesn't really work for a closer. Especially for one who's prime years were spent as a middling option in a more important role.

I'm sure Smoltz would've been mind blowing had he closed his entire career. (Projecting his save total wouldn't get him near top ten status. It's just projecting.). But he didn't.

Every reliever is a failed starter at some point. Which lessens the importance in the first place, to me.


80's relievers for some reason got propped up when it came to historical status and many position players got the polar opposite. I don't like that.

 

[broncosmitty]

He was 43...How old is Nathan right now?

I don't know. 41?

He's not a Tiger anymore, that I know. Lol.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Explain your reasoning that he had only 2 great seasons. Hell, he won the MVP & Cy Young in what is arguably his 3rd best season. Statistically, he had 5 good years as a closer - 4 really good year - 3 great years and what is arguably the greatest season a closer had every had. Over his 5 year peak (1988-1992) he had a 1.90 ERA , 0.792 WHIP and a 90% save %, and this at a time when a good closer saved 75% of his games, had an ERA of 3.00 and a WHIP of 1.2000.

Yea, but when you look at the competition that year, it leads me to believe that writers maybe voted for him for 'lifetime achievement' purposes rather than actually being the best choice. If you look at the pitching performances that year for the Cy, it probably should've been Clemens #1 and Mussina #2 (both won 18 games, had a mid 2 ERA, and threw 240+ innings)...I don't have an issue with a closer winning it if there were no great/deserving starters, but you had two that year.

I mean, Dave Stewart finished better than Eck in 1990, and Stewart's 1990 probably wasn't as good as Clemens and Mussina's 1992 seasons (who both finished behind Eck in 1992 Cy voting, despite Eck's 1992 being worse than his 1990).

 

[blstoker]

Yea, but when you look at the competition that year, it leads me to believe that writers maybe voted for him for 'lifetime achievement' purposes rather than actually being the best choice. If you look at the pitching performances that year for the Cy, it probably should've been Clemens #1 and Mussina #2 (both won 18 games, had a mid 2 ERA, and threw 240+ innings)...I don't have an issue with a closer winning it if there were no great/deserving starters, but you had two that year.

I mean, Dave Stewart finished better than Eck in 1990, and Stewart's 1990 probably wasn't as good as Clemens and Mussina's 1992 seasons (who both finished behind Eck in 1992 Cy voting, despite Eck's 1992 being worse than his 1990).

Personally, I wouldn't have given him the MVP or Cy Young that year - but I rarely get a choice. People put stock in these awards, hence my using them. The players I think should win the award and the one who does are totally different things. At least in '92 I can understand why he won - I still can't believe anyone thought Bob Welch should win the '90 Cy Young (and I don't care he won 27 games).

 

[StanMarsh51]

Personally, I wouldn't have given him the MVP or Cy Young that year - but I rarely get a choice. People put stock in these awards, hence my using them. The players I think should win the award and the one who does are totally different things. At least in '92 I can understand why he won - I still can't believe anyone thought Bob Welch should win the '90 Cy Young (and I don't care he won 27 games).

The awards voting overall in the '90s was pretty bad when you look back on it...Welch in '90, Pendelton in '91, McDowell in '93 Mo Vaughn in '95, Juan Gonzalez 2x, Glavine in '98, Eck in '92. Luckily it's improved significantly in recent years, as the writers aren't as fixated on benchmark numbers (ie - 20 wins) as they once wee.

 

[blstoker]

The awards voting overall in the '90s was pretty bad when you look back on it...Welch in '90, Pendelton in '91, McDowell in '93 Mo Vaughn in '95, Juan Gonzalez 2x, Glavine in '98, Eck in '92. Luckily it's improved significantly in recent years, as the writers aren't as fixated on benchmark numbers (ie - 20 wins) as they once wee.

Don't forget Palmeiro winning the gold glove for 1b in 1999 while playing only 28 games in the field. He also won the DH of the year award that year.