Bob Probert Autopsy

[Eddie_Shack]

So I guess I've done too much scanning and not enough reading in this thread... it seems like the pro-fighting crowd has spent most of their time arguing why fighting should stay, and the anti-fighting crowd has been countering those arguments. Just out of curiosity, can we summarize the reasons why fighting should be removed from the NHL? Is it primarily safety and mainstream acceptance?

 

[jstewismybastardson]

So I guess I've done too much scanning and not enough reading in this thread... it seems like the pro-fighting crowd has spent most of their time arguing why fighting should stay, and the anti-fighting crowd has been countering those arguments. Just out of curiosity, can we summarize the reasons why fighting should be removed from the NHL? Is it primarily safety and mainstream acceptance?

we need to do it for the kids ... cmon ... do it for the children!!!

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

So I guess I've done too much scanning and not enough reading in this thread... it seems like the pro-fighting crowd has spent most of their time arguing why fighting should stay, and the anti-fighting crowd has been countering those arguments. Just out of curiosity, can we summarize the reasons why fighting should be removed from the NHL? Is it primarily safety and mainstream acceptance?

Bob Probert's autopsy reveals the risks of long term exposure to repeated shots to the head (fighting). For an extreme case of the same disease (and yes it is a clinical disease now, dementia pugilistica), see professional wrestler Chris Benoit.

A player has now actually died as a result of hitting his head on the ice during a fight.

As fighting is not truly part of the fabric of the game, it is time to call it what it is, a dangerous side show, and get rid of it.

This is where some of us are coming from.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

we need to do it for the kids ... cmon ... do it for the children!!!

But I hate kids

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Bob Probert's autopsy reveals the risks of long term exposure to repeated shots to the head (fighting). For an extreme case of the same disease (and yes it is a clinical disease now, dementia pugilistica), see professional wrestler Chris Benoit.

A player has now actually died as a result of hitting his head on the ice during a fight.

As fighting is not truly part of the fabric of the game, it is time to call it what it is, a dangerous side show, and get rid of it.

This is where some of us are coming from.

was this the actual determination? I just heard he had signs of brain deterioration ... do we know for sure what role his chronic drug abuse played?

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

was this the actual determination? I just heard he had signs of brain deterioration ... do we know for sure what role his chronic drug abuse played?

Drug abuse does not cause this disease at all. I work in epidemiology. I have also done some of the statistical analyses on some of these reports (my area is admittedly infectious diseases, but I do specialize in certain analysis types, so get brought on to projects from time to time) and the only consistent factor is repeated minor to moderate brain trauma:

Not my work but a few quick references:

http://www.neuroanatomy.org/2010/005_007.pdf
Discovery Health "Is there a link between concussions and dementia?"

pixburgher is in sports medicine I believe as well and could also likely speak on the subject with some expertise.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

I should be more specific. I do not work in epidemiology. I am an epidemiologist, ha ha, with the letters after my name and all. The wording above does not really indicate that.

 

[KillerVee]

Probert died of heart disease, not a brain disorder. We really don't know very much about how that disorder may have affected him. His wife said he had some memory problems and temper flares, but it's kind of hard to diagnose someone on secondhand recounts.

To say that fighting should be taken out because someone had evidence of some brain trauma without any real diagnosis during life is a little extreme to me.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Why is it all Caps and Pens fans that want fighting out? Are you afraid of Semin and Malkin getting into the most embarrassing scrap of all time?

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Probert died of heart disease, not a brain disorder. We really don't know very much about how that disorder may have affected him. His wife said he had some memory problems and temper flares, but it's kind of hard to diagnose someone on secondhand recounts.

To say that fighting should be taken out because someone had evidence of some brain trauma without any real diagnosis during life is a little extreme to me.

You cannot definitively diagnose dementia until autopsy, unfortunately. You can diagnose it based on symptoms, but not based on clinical findings. It is kind of sad, that way, but they are trying to find chemical markers and the such for a better understanding. The bottom line is his brain looked like all of those that have shown CTE, indicating that like many pro athletes, he had severe dementia, beyond his age, likely caused by chronic repetitive trauma. We will see it in other hockey player's brains, should they submit their brains to research.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Why is it all Caps and Pens fans that want fighting out? Are you afraid of Semin and Malkin getting into the most embarrassing scrap of all time?

We both are embarrassed of the old school Kevin Kaminski - Francois Leroux fights.

 

[Eddie_Shack]

We both are embarrassed of the old school Kevin Kaminski - Francois Leroux fights.

LOL, I understand, good sir.

 

[Slimpikins]

Again, not logical. Nobody is saying "ban anything that can potentially cause death." Nobody is saying "stop playing hockey because it is dangerous." That is a statement your comparisons would be appropriate to, but not this debate.

We are talking about one aspect of the sport, which is not in and of itself fundamental to the game itself. And since some may disagree with that, you could say at a minimum, not part of the regular flow and purpose of the game.

All those sports you mentioned have made changes to make their sports safer, while still not destroying the fundamental appeal of the sport itself. THAT is what we are talking about here.

I was not aware that boxing or soccer had removed the blows to the head. In fact I am pretty sure they haven't.

The point remains the same, if you think that hockey needs to be changed for safety then why don't any other sports? Boxing and soccer have had the same issue with repeated blows to the head.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

I was not aware that boxing or soccer had removed the blows to the head. In fact I am pretty sure they haven't.

The point remains the same, if you think that hockey needs to be changed for safety then why don't any other sports? Boxing and soccer have had the same issue with repeated blows to the head.

Instead of deflecting the debate to other flawed sports, why not confront the issue in hockey. You are going with the "Well Sally does it all the time...." defense which really holds no water. Just because it is a problem elsewhere, you do not need to allow it to continue to be a problem here.

 

[forty_three]

Hockey is an impact sport, how can they realistically say that fighting, and fighting alone, caused the problem?

Paul Kariya never got into a fight in his life. He had to leave the game because of head injury problems. I've had five concussions in my life, not one because of hockey. And even though, I am a goalie, I have fought.

I am of the opinion that fighting needs to stay in the game, and the reason is to prevent more injuries. Look at the disrespect in every other sport. Some 300lb lineman has the guy with the ball run into him and fall down. The fat guy steps on him and gets up and dances. Guys thump their chests and talk shit for putting a ball in a hoop. You don't like a guy who is up at bat, you whizz a fast ball directly at his head. His problem if he doesn't move out of the way. What retribution is there? Fines? Look at that loud mouth douche from the Steelers who keeps getting fined for hits to the head. Surely, he's learned his lesson. Not.

In hockey, you do something cheap and disrespectful, you have to answer. And you have to answer in a REAL way. To a guy like Probert actually. And I am pretty sure I've read he wouldn't have had it any other way. Just his very existence on the ice probably gave us five moe years of Yzerman to enjoy. How long would Gretzky have lasted if not for Semenko and McSorely. You think it was a coincidence that McSorely was traded with him to LA?

I have an 8 year old son who is playing hockey. Obviously, they don't check and fighting is strictly forbidden. And what I've told him is that someday, he's going to have to deal with it. And I am teaching him to respect the game and his opponents. He knows that someday, he might do the wrong thing. And while he will have to face me after the game, he also knows he is going to have to answer for it before then, on the ice. You can choose to avoid that kind of game, or can choose to be in the middle of it. But either way, you will have to answer for how you play the game.

I'll leave it up to him to see that Lidstrom is a much better career choice than Lindros.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Hockey is an impact sport, how can they realistically say that fighting, and fighting alone, caused the problem?

Paul Kariya never got into a fight in his life. He had to leave the game because of head injury problems. I've had five concussions in my life, not one because of hockey. And even though, I am a goalie, I have fought.

I am of the opinion that fighting needs to stay in the game, and the reason is to prevent more injuries. Look at the disrespect in every other sport. Some 300lb lineman has the guy with the ball run into him and fall down. The fat guy steps on him and gets up and dances. Guys thump their chests and talk shit for putting a ball in a hoop. You don't like a guy who is up at bat, you whizz a fast ball directly at his head. His problem if he doesn't move out of the way. What retribution is there? Fines? Look at that loud mouth douche from the Steelers who keeps getting fined for hits to the head. Surely, he's learned his lesson. Not.

In hockey, you do something cheap and disrespectful, you have to answer. And you have to answer in a REAL way. To a guy like Probert actually. And I am pretty sure I've read he wouldn't have had it any other way. Just his very existence on the ice probably gave us five moe years of Yzerman to enjoy. How long would Gretzky have lasted if not for Semenko and McSorely. You think it was a coincidence that McSorely was traded with him to LA?

I have an 8 year old son who is playing hockey. Obviously, they don't check and fighting is strictly forbidden. And what I've told him is that someday, he's going to have to deal with it. And I am teaching him to respect the game and his opponents. He knows that someday, he might do the wrong thing. And while he will have to face me after the game, he also knows he is going to have to answer for it before then, on the ice. You can choose to avoid that kind of game, or can choose to be in the middle of it. But either way, you will have to answer for how you play the game.

I'll leave it up to him to see that Lidstrom is a much better career choice than Lindros.

CTE, which is what we are really talking about here with Probert is not caused by major concussions, but instead what are called "multiple minors". SOme scientists think that these are much worse because they do not show signs and symptoms immediately and therefore players continue to play. It has also been estimated that some NFL linemen can suffer 5-10 of these a game. Boxers, over 20 in a 12 round fight. Getting hit in the head, even by a simple punch, over and over, 20-13 times a year is bad, regardless of how you look at it.

 

[forty_three]

CTE, which is what we are really talking about here with Probert is not caused by major concussions, but instead what are called "multiple minors". SOme scientists think that these are much worse because they do not show signs and symptoms immediately and therefore players continue to play. It has also been estimated that some NFL linemen can suffer 5-10 of these a game. Boxers, over 20 in a 12 round fight. Getting hit in the head, even by a simple punch, over and over, 20-13 times a year is bad, regardless of how you look at it.

So the only solution to that is to outlaw blocking and blitzing?

Thanks for the info, I wasn't quite clear on it. But I still don't know how they can be sure being rubbed into the glass or banged in front of the net 10-15 times a night isn't just as much to blame.

Seems like the "Stop fighting" people have just latched onto it to further their cause.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

So the only solution to that is to outlaw blocking and blitzing?

Thanks for the info, I wasn't quite clear on it. But I still don't know how they can be sure being rubbed into the glass or banged in front of the net 10-15 times a night isn't just as much to blame.

Seems like the "Stop fighting" people have just latched onto it to further their cause.

This all might be the case. However, it would be awfully tough to eliminate that as it is pat of the flow of the game. You could, however, eliminate fighting. In many leagues and countries it is not part of the game. It is what is called an avoidable hazard or an attributable risk. As an example, some lung cancer is caused by genetics or basic pollution, but you cannot really eliminate those exposures. However, as well know, a lot of it is a direct result of smoking, and that is something that you can feasibly try and stop, on some level.

Anyhow, I have to head out and appreciate the fun debate. I think that everyone has made good points. I posted a couple links on this or the "fighting in hockey" thread that may interest you on CTE,.

 

[pixburgher66]

Thanks 46 for your expertise on the subject, honestly although I'm gaining a knowledge into that stuff my knowledge is more into the sports-related concussion realm than anything disease-wise. The reason that I pegged fighting and not hits to the head or the like, is because one can be much more easily eliminated than another. The chances of getting rid of head shots in the league? Slim to none, because they happen in a fast paced game, whether intentional or not. The chances of eliminating most fighting? Pretty good if the league gets rid of it. A significant amount of fights happen with two willing parties, and if a rule comes in that equates to a game misconduct for fight, players won't do it. I understand the place it has, but reading about this has changed my opinion. I'm 99% sure we had a similar thread to this one not long ago, and if someone can dig that up, I think my opinion was different. But when you read on the impact it can have, leading to a disease similar to that of post-concussion syndrome (with memory loss, angry outbursts, headaches, eyesight issues) and ultimately shortening many lives due to depression and other issues, you have to start questioning things like fighting...the thing that can be changed 'easily' (the easy part is merely my opinion).

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Thanks 46 for your expertise on the subject, honestly although I'm gaining a knowledge into that stuff my knowledge is more into the sports-related concussion realm than anything disease-wise. The reason that I pegged fighting and not hits to the head or the like, is because one can be much more easily eliminated than another. The chances of getting rid of head shots in the league? Slim to none, because they happen in a fast paced game, whether intentional or not. The chances of eliminating most fighting? Pretty good if the league gets rid of it. A significant amount of fights happen with two willing parties, and if a rule comes in that equates to a game misconduct for fight, players won't do it. I understand the place it has, but reading about this has changed my opinion. I'm 99% sure we had a similar thread to this one not long ago, and if someone can dig that up, I think my opinion was different. But when you read on the impact it can have, leading to a disease similar to that of post-concussion syndrome (with memory loss, angry outbursts, headaches, eyesight issues) and ultimately shortening many lives due to depression and other issues, you have to start questioning things like fighting...the thing that can be changed 'easily' (the easy part is merely my opinion).

Once again, I think we agree on the major points of the issue. I figured you may be more up to date on the research. I do epidemiology, so it takes a bunch of events to happen before it get's to me. However, as both you and I states, the idea of prevention has to be considered.