Babcock given permission to talk to NHL teams - Update - Leafs it is!

[flyersfan4706]

If you think stability and sound ownership = Flyers, then

I'm not sure you understand what sound ownership means

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I'm not sure you understand what sound ownership means

Spoiler: Does it have anything to do with...

taggy sits?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I'm not sure you understand what sound ownership means

The Leafs have "sound ownership" and I don't know why the fuck anyone would want to work for them. Philly isn't far off that perch, what with not needing a fresh perspective and stuff...

 

[flyersfan4706]

Spoiler: Does it have anything to do with...

taggy sits?

Babcock has a Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold. I am sure he has his eyes on those saggy prizes.

 

[flyersfan4706]

The Leafs have "sound ownership" and I don't know why the fuck anyone would want to work for them. Philly isn't far off that perch, what with not needing a fresh perspective and stuff...

Hextall has certainly brought a different vision to the Flyers. The idea that the Flyers are super impatient and a bad team is something very new and not going to last. Richards and Carter were traded 4 years ago. Holmgren is out of the big picture. This is the team's 2nd dry spell in their history.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Babcock has a Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold. I am sure he has his eyes on those saggy prizes.

Maybe this gif is a metaphor for Babcock coming back to Detroit?

Spoiler

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Hextall has certainly brought a different vision to the Flyers. The idea that the Flyers are super impatient and a bad team is something very new and not going to last. Richards and Carter were traded 4 years ago. Holmgren is out of the big picture. This is the team's 2nd dry spell in their history.

?

 

[flyersfan4706]

?

I think I'd classify Lindros as a special case. Besides, I am not sure Babcock's decision is coming down to "But the Flyers traded for Lindros!"

This all stems for the post taking a jab at the soundness of the Flyers' ownership. Unless I am forgetting something huge, there have never been any questions or problems with the Flyers. We aren't talking about the Coyotes here. I'm not sure Babcock would leave Detroit if he really cared about franchise stability.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I think I'd classify Lindros as a special case. Besides, I am not sure Babcock's decision is coming down to "But the Flyers traded for Lindros!"

This all stems for the post taking a jab at the soundness of the Flyers' ownership. Unless I am forgetting something huge, there have never been any questions or problems with the Flyers. We aren't talking about the Coyotes here. I'm not sure Babcock would leave Detroit if he really cared about franchise stability.

No, but there's something to be said for franchise sanity. The owner who forced his GM to sign a psychopath goalie to one of the most lucrative contracts in league history is still around, and Hextall still has to do what he says.

Even when it comes to Hextall, I'm not seeing what Flyers fans seem to see in him. As GM, Hextall signed Andrew Macdonald and traded Hartnell for a box of Frosted Flakes that costs the team $4.6 million/yr. Hextall was also director of hockey ops when they signed Vinny and Mark Streit to insane deals.

 

[flyersfan4706]

No, but there's something to be said for franchise sanity. The owner who forced his GM to sign a psychopath goalie to one of the most lucrative contracts in league history is still around, and Hextall still has to do what he says.

Even when it comes to Hextall, I'm not seeing what Flyers fans seem to see in him. As GM, Hextall signed Andrew Macdonald and traded Hartnell for a box of Frosted Flakes that costs the team $4.6 million/yr. Hextall was also director of hockey ops when they signed Vinny and Mark Streit to insane deals.

Bobrovsky wasn't a Vezina winner when we traded him, and he really didn't appear to have a shot at being that. (Short of a 48 game season he really hasn't been.) When you're a playoff team and you're #1D (Pronger) has a limited shelf life, you might want to fix your position of weakness. (Goalie) Anyone with any bit of sanity knew we needed a goalie after the 2011 playoffs. It was a complete disaster. In the end Bryz didn't work, though it made a lot more sense going with a proven vet over Bobrovsky. In the end it landed us Mason, so I can't complain.

Hextall didn't sign MacDonald to his extension. Holmgren.

Hartnell was traded for Umberger because of their contract lengths. It is almost like Hextall was thinking ahead to when the Flyers will be a better team and kids will need raises. Hartnell doesn't make us a playoff team.

You're really reaching with Hextall being behind the scenes of the Vinny/Hextall deals. Again, Holmgren. Vinny is admittedly horrible, but Streit has been great.

In the short time that Hextall has been GM, he has kept pushing the future and the importance of developing the kids. The Timonen and Coburn trades back up his thinking.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Bobrovsky wasn't a Vezina winner when we traded him, and he really didn't appear to have a shot at being that. (Short of a 48 game season he really hasn't been.) When you're a playoff team and you're #1D (Pronger) has a limited shelf life, you might want to fix your position of weakness. (Goalie) Anyone with any bit of sanity knew we needed a goalie after the 2011 playoffs. It was a complete disaster. In the end Bryz didn't work, though it made a lot more sense going with a proven vet over Bobrovsky. In the end it landed us Mason, so I can't complain.

Hextall didn't sign MacDonald to his extension. Holmgren.

Hartnell was traded for Umberger because of their contract lengths. It is almost like Hextall was thinking ahead to when the Flyers will be a better team and kids will need raises. Hartnell doesn't make us a playoff team.

You're really reaching with Hextall being behind the scenes of the Vinny/Hextall deals. Again, Holmgren. Vinny is admittedly horrible, but Streit has been great.

In the short time that Hextall has been GM, he has kept pushing the future and the importance of developing the kids. The Timonen and Coburn trades back up his thinking.

How am I reaching in believing the director of hockey operations had a say in signings and trades lol. What do you think he was doing there, shining Snider's shoes?

Snider said this team was capable of making the playoffs, and they didn't. Does a 60 pt player maybe increase those odds? In that case, what does 4 years down the road matter when you're trying to win today, something Snider is obviously trying to do?

 

[flyersfan4706]

How am I reaching in believing the director of hockey operations had a say in signings and trades lol. What do you think he was doing there, shining Snider's shoes?

Snider said this team was capable of making the playoffs, and they didn't. Does a 60 pt player maybe increase those odds? In that case, what does 4 years down the road matter when you're trying to win today, something Snider is obviously trying to do?

I am not going to pin the blame of Vinny on Hextall when in the end he wasn't the guy who signed him, especially when the Vinny signing is the exact opposite of what Hextall stands for.

Of course Snider thinks we are capable of making the playoffs. That is just how he is. God forbid he support his team. Sure Hartnell would have helped, but do you seriously think he was the difference between the playoffs and the lottery. He wasn't, unless he could also be a top pair defenseman in addition to those 60 points. Four years down the road matters because the Flyers are finally building a team instead of chasing the Cup. Why do you think the Leafs are trying to trade Kessel and Phaneuf? Doesn't that hurt your playoff chances?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I am not going to pin the blame of Vinny on Hextall when in the end he wasn't the guy who signed him, especially when the Vinny signing is the exact opposite of what Hextall stands for.

Of course Snider thinks we are capable of making the playoffs. That is just how he is. God forbid he support his team. Sure Hartnell would have helped, but do you seriously think he was the difference between the playoffs and the lottery. He wasn't, unless he could also be a top pair defenseman in addition to those 60 points. Four years down the road matters because the Flyers are finally building a team instead of chasing the Cup. Why do you think the Leafs are trying to trade Kessel and Phaneuf? Doesn't that hurt your playoff chances?

I'm so confused - what does Hextall stand for? He's been on the job for a year and barely had a chance to scratch his nuts. It's not like you're going by his previous work because he's never been a GM before so what's the deal here?

And I don't know what the Leafs are doing, and I sure as shit ain't giving Shanahan any sort of praise until he actually does something praise-worthy. You shouldn't be giving Hextall any yet, either.

 

[awaz]

I'm so confused - what does Hextall stand for? He's been on the job for a year and barely had a chance to scratch his nuts. It's not like you're going by his previous work because he's never been a GM before so what's the deal here?

And I don't know what the Leafs are doing, and I sure as shit ain't giving Shanahan any sort of praise until he actually does something praise-worthy. You shouldn't be giving Hextall any yet, either.

honestly he gets praise because he didn't do anything stupid at the TDL this year. that's why I like him so far. and he's preached about letting the kids grow in juniors and in the minors.

Things that would have been different without Hextall:
1. Morin plays this season with the Flyers
2. Sanheim plays this season with the Flyers
3. Coburn doesn't get traded for a 1st and 3rd
4. Timonen doesn't get traded for a 2nd and a 4th that could be a 2nd (if the hawks make the finals)
5. The Flyers trade their 1st round pick, Gostisbehere, and Laughton for Yandle
6. Flyers make the playoffs and get flattened in the first round by the Habs

Sure that might be praising a guy for not being the previous guys, but I am thankful Hextall chose to do the opposite of that list. I don't care that they missed the playoffs this year as a result.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

honestly he gets praise because he didn't do anything stupid at the TDL this year. that's why I like him so far. and he's preached about letting the kids grow in juniors and in the minors.

Things that would have been different without Hextall:
1. Morin plays this season with the Flyers
2. Sanheim plays this season with the Flyers
3. Coburn doesn't get traded for a 1st and 3rd
4. Timonen doesn't get traded for a 2nd and a 4th that could be a 2nd (if the hawks make the finals)
5. The Flyers trade their 1st round pick, Gostisbehere, and Laughton for Yandle
6. Flyers make the playoffs and get flattened in the first round by the Habs

Sure that might be praising a guy for not being the previous guys, but I am thankful Hextall chose to do the opposite of that list. I don't care that they missed the playoffs this year as a result.

Which is all good, awaz. Taking stock in your season and where your team stands and making decisions based on that information is exactly what a GM should be doing and I don't fault Hextall for any of that. I'm just saying praising the guy for having some sort of record of doing this is a bit of a stretch for a rookie GM, just like it is when I hear Leaf fans talk about how Shanahan is going to save us all from Satan's power when his previous executive experience is talking on video about why Matt Cooke isn't going to jail for attempted murder. Us sports fans can be too quick to judge the guys in charge and we end up seeing only what we want instead of being patient and objective.

 

[flyersfan4706]

I'm so confused - what does Hextall stand for? He's been on the job for a year and barely had a chance to scratch his nuts. It's not like you're going by his previous work because he's never been a GM before so what's the deal here?

And I don't know what the Leafs are doing, and I sure as shit ain't giving Shanahan any sort of praise until he actually does something praise-worthy. You shouldn't be giving Hextall any yet, either.

As awaz points out, Hextall gets praise for what he isn't doing. Instead of trading picks and rushing kids, the Flyers are being patient as opposed to what was happening form 2008 to 2013. Thats why I took offense to the jab at Babcock not wanting to come to Philadelphia because of stability. It isn't 2011.

Until Hextall does something shortsighted and against what he claims to stand for, Flyers fans will praise him for sticking to the plan.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

As awaz points out, Hextall gets praise for what he isn't doing. Instead of trading picks and rushing kids, the Flyers are being patient as opposed to what was happening form 2008 to 2013. Thats why I took offense to the jab at Babcock not wanting to come to Philadelphia because of stability. It isn't 2011.

Until Hextall does something shortsighted and against what he claims to stand for, Flyers fans will praise him for sticking to the plan.

Allowing other peoples' work to come to fruition is fine (and the right thing to do), but praising him for it is a bit much. I'd wait until he actually shows his worth as a GM via his own drafting, trading and signing.

But much like the Leafs (and the Oilers), the issues with ownership are still there even if there are a few new faces around. I don't think there is any doubt that Snider meddles - likely much more than Ilitch does. These are franchises that have seen a merry-go-round of coaches and GMs over the past decade without much success to show for it (although the Flyers have had more than the other two), and in two of those cases, the same owners are still around. It's definitely something a guy like Babcock would take into consideration, especially after working for a guy like Ilitch for a decade.

 

[awaz]

Allowing other peoples' work to come to fruition is fine (and the right thing to do), but praising him for it is a bit much. I'd wait until he actually shows his worth as a GM via his own drafting, trading and signing.

But much like the Leafs (and the Oilers), the issues with ownership are still there even if there are a few new faces around. I don't think there is any doubt that Snider meddles - likely much more than Ilitch does. These are franchises that have seen a merry-go-round of coaches and GMs over the past decade without much success to show for it (although the Flyers have had more than the other two), and in two of those cases, the same owners are still around. It's definitely something a guy like Babcock would take into consideration, especially after working for a guy like Ilitch for a decade.

I don't know that Snider would be a detriment to the Flyers in the Babcock hunt. His biggest flaw is his desire to win. It's a win at all costs mentality, but Hextall seems to have staid that desire at least temporarily. If Snider was meddling as much as he had previously, none of that list would have been allowed to happen I don't think. Plus, I don't recall any other times where there was evidence of Snider truly meddling other than the Bryzaster. I've been a fan for 20 years (makes me feel super old btw), and I don't recall him stepping in like that before. Maybe Clarke and Holmgren were just listening to him, but I got the impression from both of them that they were just balls out aggressive.

Another note on the Bryz thing, and I've said this a lot on the Flyers board, I still blame Holmgren for that. Snider said to fix the goalie problem at all costs. That didn't mean Homer had to sign Bryz to a 5.9 mil cap hit or whatever it was. The next best goalie on the market (Chris Mason maybe?) signed for 1.5. The goalie position has been a revolving door for most NHL teams currently. You're just as likely to get a scorching hot run from Andrew Hammond at 950k as you are to get one from Pekka Rinne at 7 mil or whatever he gets. Homer misjudged the goalie market badly and mismanaged his assets (cap space) making that signing. He could have signed Bryz for 6 mil over 2 years and that blight looks far less egregious. IMO, unless you have Carey Price or Henrik Lundqvist, spending the money on goalies is a waste in this day and age. It's all about who gets hot.

 

[BGDave]

Great discussion guys. Honest.

Just wanted to clarify. My earlier "jab" was a reference to Snyder and not at all to Hextall. All last season I kept reading that "the Flyers were stuck in the 70's" and "Snyder is the problem because he keeps hiring the Old FlyerBoys". Clarke, Holmgren, Berube, et al. And this was from Flyers fans.

Me, I do recall meddling owners and lived through one of the best/worst in Harold Ballard. From 500 miles away, the picture I kept seeing of the Flyers and Snyder sounded an awful lot like Raiders/Davis or Cowboys/Jones or Leafs/Ballard/Stavros/OTPF/etc. Hence my comment.

I get that PhillyNation wants Babcock. Understandably so. Has the Philly management team created a different, positive atmosphere? But most importantly, will Snyder let Hextall and the rest of the leadership do their jobs? The history suggests doubt is reasonable, and I wonder if Babcock will have those doubts.

And heck, it doesnt matter, "everyone" knows he is going to EDM. LOL

 

[BGDave]

IMO, unless you have Carey Price or Henrik Lundqvist, spending the money on goalies is a waste in this day and age. It's all about who gets hot.

100000000% Correct. Before them, it was Brodeur and Roy. Thats it. Spending valuable cap space on a goalie is not smart Cap management.