Are we really this Bad

[j_y19]

Common sense would dictate asking questions before you spout some bullshit about testing being the key. All a test does is tell you information. What you do with regard to the information and individual liberty protected by the Constitution is the key.[/QUOTE



Testing IS the key. We need to have real data on the infection rate (including asymptotic) and mortality rate before we start making plans on how to deal with it or even what "it" is. That is common sense. A vaccine is the cure. There is plenty of reason to believe that a vaccine will be available by the end of the year. How, who, when, and where the testing is done is up for debate. But we need wide spread testing available, which is now starting to happen.

 

[gkekoa]

@gkekoa

You;re absolutely right. I certainly didn't give your post the scope that it deserved. I'll try to here.Far as the economy and suicides go. Not sure how I feel about that. I believe suicide covers a wide and varied spectrum of issues. Some of which I have compassion for, a few of which I don't. That said. Far too many Americans live with a get now, pay ridiculous interest rates later mentality. If there were/are/will be ecomonic shutdown suicides. I imagine a good number of them operate on the get now/pay later mentality. I wouldn't take pleasure in their deaths, but I doubt I mourn them eithe.

Domestic violence relatted to the shutdown - I wonder how many parents have come to a realization that little Jimmy n Joanie aren't quite the angels they believed them to be. #maybenowuthinkteachersdeservearaise!! Or how many sposues got reaquainted with their significant other and remembered they were ass0s.

Truth be told, I've never been in favor of a total shutdown. One way to overcome viruses is to be exposesd to them and build up immunities towards them. Get out anhd breathe some air, and run a little bit.On the other hand, if the Rona really is something different, deadlier etc. I don 't think caution, even to the point of overcaution is a bad thing.

On the other otherhand. I used to think it was mainly the youth or at the least the generation after mine, I'm 57, but its pimpslapped the shit out of a lotta folks in my age group.as well. We've been attacked by enemies in a manner which we defeine as warfare, 9/11, OKC bombing for example, but no one has ever lobbed a bomb at us from a fighter jet or dropped one on us from a bomber plane. Nor has anyone/any country ever stormed a single shore with bullets ablazin in my lifetime. The Rona is the first real crisis situation we've ever faced in our homeland as a whole. And I gotta tell you. I can't say I'm proud of how we reacted.

There was an oped written by an Irish cat that was very critical of how the Gov't has handled Rona, and speaking of Gov't. Of China has lied to us, but BFD. Our Gov't's lies to us and I'm not talking strictly about our current Gov't. I know we're not supposed to get political, but something has to change about how politics are conducted in our country. Cuz all it seems our two party system is concernefd about is being in power/staying in power. And/or how to get back said power when its lost.

"steps off soapbox"

Peace, G, and everybody else.

Breed, I really do appreciate the response.
?
I am the exact same way regarding suicide, but the argument of people is they want to save lives. If we blame COVD for a 90 year olds death, then we should be blaming COVD for the suicide as a comparative tool. Everything is comparative, so which do I feel worse about, a person losing their job and killing themselves or an old person dying a week early of disease? I feel worse for the young. As for spending ourselves into oblivion, we have a helluva role model for that...see the fed.

I completely agree on domestic violence as well. It really is he society and culture we have developed. People send their kids off to be raised by the system, spend no time with their family, but still make time for their buddies. Then they wonder what happened. It is sad but still a result of being forced to stay in doors and not work. I am not one of those who believe teachers deserve a raise, not saying they don’t either, but my opinion on the subject is a bit political and nuanced.

Again, we agree. I do believe Corona is more deadly than the normal flu. I don’t believe it is as deadly as some claim. You are absolutely correct about our immunity and viruses. I have said for years if the Earth, Mother Nature, thinks she is being abused, she will do something about it, and it wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last. But what is the actual caution? Do people think if we shelter in place this virus just disappears from the face of the Earth? All we are doing is prolonging the inevitable.

How do you feel we should have reacted? This may be the biggest question.

As for the government lying, it is what we have allowed. The best fix for it is to vote out career politicians and demand term limits with the prohibition of working in politics after and the prohibition of working for lobbyists...I would suggest outlawing lobbying in general.

Ultimately, I don’t see the two party system as bad but power hungry career politicians have made it so. I will say the two party system is further apart on their beliefs than they have ever been and it is to a point where it can never truly reconcile. When the two parties started, the two parties were furthest apart on slavery. The republicans we can all agree held the moral side and we went to war. Now the slavery subject is rivaled with abortion but aside that...the left has slid far away from what they once believed on all subjects. What we need to do is allow the states to be different from each other, the way it was designed. If this state wants a welfare system, they should make one. If that state wants UBI, that state should have one. The fed would be responsible for national defense, infrastructure, and defending the innumerate rights of its citizenry...not made up rights that were never actually discussed by the governed.

 

[gkekoa]

This is interesting. You both claim testing is the key but want tests for different things. Maybe it isn’t so common. Ruz wants to test people for the active infection. You want to test people for the RNA sequence to see who has been infected to determine an infection rate.

COVD-19 is a disease caused by the virus SARS-COV-2.

There is no cure for SARS-COV-1. There is no cure for influenza. Most viruses have no cure. So I am not sure why we should believe there will be a cure for this.

I would say the key to this would be better hygiene and courteousness.

 

[j_y19]

This is interesting. You both claim testing is the key but want tests for different things. Maybe it isn’t so common. Ruz wants to test people for the active infection. You want to test people for the RNA sequence to see who has been infected to determine an infection rate.

COVD-19 is a disease caused by the virus SARS-COV-2.

There is no cure for SARS-COV-1. There is no cure for influenza. Most viruses have no cure. So I am not sure why we should believe there will be a cure for this.

I would say the key to this would be better hygiene and courteousness.

Why would I think there will be a vaccine? Because Dr. Fauci himself said that there is a good chance there will be one by the end of the year. I would tend to believe him before someone on and internet football forum site. Not that there is anything wrong with good hygiene and courteousness, but I'm not sure if your actions alone are based on facts, but more on opinions and hopes. Since I am not a scientist, doctor, or know anything more about this than what I have read, I will stay the course with what our experts say. BTW, a vaccine is not necessarily a cure. It is a treatment. And there are vaccines for other viruses. There has been a vaccine for the common flu for years. It's effectiveness varies from year to year, but overall it is more effective than not having one..

 

[gkekoa]

Why would I think there will be a vaccine? Because Dr. Fauci himself said that there is a good chance there will be one by the end of the year. I would tend to believe him before someone on and internet football forum site. Not that there is anything wrong with good hygiene and courteousness, but I'm not sure if your actions alone are based on facts, but more on opinions and hopes. Since I am not a scientist, doctor, or know anything more about this than what I have read, I will stay the course with what our experts say. BTW, a vaccine is not necessarily a cure. It is a treatment. And there are vaccines for other viruses. There has been a vaccine for the common flu for years. It's effectiveness varies from year to year, but overall it is more effective than not having one..

Why should we believe that from a politician? A vaccine is also not a cure. We have a flu vaccine with millions more cases every year.

Believe who you want but look at the facts before you make a decision.

Actually, my statement is backed up by nothing but facts. If we are more hygienic, wash our hands before we touch any opening of the body, cover our mouth and nose during a cough or sneeze, stay at home when sick, how exactly would the disease transfer?

The scientists you are touting have been wrong at literally every level during this pandemic, but you want to keep believing them because they are scientists?

The flu vaccine covers limited strands of the flu, that is why we catch the flu. People are making guesses as to which strand will be popping.

 

[Myles]

The Redskins need a culture change. I'm not sure how to put it other than that. Since 2000 they have averaged 6.6 wins per year. Went 10-6 2 times, but only 5 winning seasons in 20 years. I'm at a loss for what they should do.

I hope they find out because I've always liked the Skins. I at least root for them 4 times a year against the Cowboys and Giants.

 

[j_y19]

Why should we believe that from a politician? A vaccine is also not a cure. We have a flu vaccine with millions more cases every year.

Believe who you want but look at the facts before you make a decision.

Actually, my statement is backed up by nothing but facts. If we are more hygienic, wash our hands before we touch any opening of the body, cover our mouth and nose during a cough or sneeze, stay at home when sick, how exactly would the disease transfer?

The scientists you are touting have been wrong at literally every level during this pandemic, but you want to keep believing them because they are scientists?

The flu vaccine covers limited strands of the flu, that is why we catch the flu. People are making guesses as to which strand will be popping.

Your right, I guess I should believe you. After all, you seem to know it all about this. Show me the facts you are basing your claims on. I would love to see them. Because reality is we just don't know enough yet to make any definitive claims other than this virus is very infectious and can be lethal to those that are health compromised. We don't even know how many have it, have had it, or how they are getting it. Your statement that by doing your proposed actions soley, the disease couldn't transfer is almost comical. Good luck my friend. I hope you aren't living with or have a loved one that is immune compromised.
We have a flu vaccine and less than half the population choose to get it. That is why we we have millions of cases a year. Granted, it is not fool proof. Your are correct that the flu vaccine is strain specific and sometimes we get the strain wrong as it mutates every year. But if more chose to take the vaccine year in and year out, there would be less cases.

I'm not even sure you know why the quarantine was actually implemented. It was all about the potential to bring our health care system to its knees. What we may never know is if it was warranted or not. But I have no problem erring on the safe side until we have more data. That is why we need testing.

 

[chillerdab]

First of all, I don't know a single mom or dad who looked to the federal government as a model of inappropriate spending. That's ridiculous. Nobody, ever, has gone in to their local rent-a-center, and said, "Hmmm...... should I buy that couch I can't really afford? I'm not sure...... Maybe if I knew what the feds were doing with their monies to spend, I would know what to do?!"

This is in reference to the end of paragraph 1, post 122 by gkekoa.

Secondly, if the scenario you post is not based on reality, than it's not really a viable scenario. This is in reference to post 125, also by gekoka:

"Actually, my statement is backed up by nothing but facts. If we are more hygienic, wash our hands before we touch any opening of the body, cover our mouth and nose during a cough or sneeze, stay at home when sick, how exactly would the disease transfer?"

Since humans aren't robots, they don't do the same thing every single time. They don't wash their hands when the go to the bathroom every single time, they don't cover their mouth when they sneeze every single time, and they don't stay at home when they are sick every single time.

It is unrealistic to suggest that something that isn't possible be counted on to achieve the desired result.
Kind of like the moron governors ignoring actual facts, opening up their state too early because they are dumb motherfuckers, and endangering us all with their reckless, callous, greed.

They are relying on things that aren't based on reality - that "opening up" will actually help people who need the money - instead of what needs to happen - insist that those with all the fucking money pay their fair share.

 

[skinsdad62]

history says that there has NEVER been a cure or vaccine for a corona virus yet i am supposed to believe one will come by the end of the year because DR fauci says so ? he could be right but the track record is 0%

well lets look at what the expert never wrong scientist have said about this virus

1st it couldnt spread from animals to humans . seems like that was wrong

a mask wasnt needed then its needed

2.5 mil were going to die even with social distancing in the US but we are at 37 000

we were at 67,000 but we are at 37 000 because numbers were inflated our "experts " couldnt count or didnt know what a proper cause of death was . you be the judge

sweden was going to have 100000 deaths because they didnt shut down , they have 3000

our medical systems wouldnt be able to handle the volume but they did

we wont have enough ventilators but we did

the above are things our scientist said would happen and models based on scientific data were supposed to happen and they were wrong . now i dont want to get into a science bashing competition but i know BS when i read it and see it and i dont need to be an expert in a field to know it

i do believe they did the best they could

a few years ago i got a call from my wife telling me her dad had congestive heart failure and was going to die . i drove 15 hrs straight from MA to MI .

when i got there i got the gloomy diagnosis and then looked at the chart . it turns out the were giving him all the meds he was allergic too ! me the cave dwelling knuckle dragger non expert had to be the one to unfuck what subject matter "experts " fucked up . they stopped giving him the meds , gave him the proper ones and he lived for 1/2 decade more

so no you dont have to buy what i believe but if you think these experts are fail safe arbitrators then you could be in for a rude awakening

 

[chillerdab]

So you are faulting people who have significantly more experience than you do for basing recommendations off of unknown, unpredictable events due to unprecedented spread of a brand new virus, and getting SOME of the predictions wrong?

That sounds reasonable to you?

cool.

 

[gkekoa]

First of all, I don't know a single mom or dad who looked to the federal government as a model of inappropriate spending. That's ridiculous. Nobody, ever, has gone in to their local rent-a-center, and said, "Hmmm...... should I buy that couch I can't really afford? I'm not sure...... Maybe if I knew what the feds were doing with their monies to spend, I would know what to do?!"

This is in reference to the end of paragraph 1, post 122 by gkekoa.

Secondly, if the scenario you post is not based on reality, than it's not really a viable scenario. This is in reference to post 125, also by gekoka:

"Actually, my statement is backed up by nothing but facts. If we are more hygienic, wash our hands before we touch any opening of the body, cover our mouth and nose during a cough or sneeze, stay at home when sick, how exactly would the disease transfer?"

Since humans aren't robots, they don't do the same thing every single time. They don't wash their hands when the go to the bathroom every single time, they don't cover their mouth when they sneeze every single time, and they don't stay at home when they are sick every single time.

It is unrealistic to suggest that something that isn't possible be counted on to achieve the desired result.
Kind of like the moron governors ignoring actual facts, opening up their state too early because they are dumb motherfuckers, and endangering us all with their reckless, callous, greed.

They are relying on things that aren't based on reality - that "opening up" will actually help people who need the money - instead of what needs to happen - insist that those with all the fucking money pay their fair share.

On your first point, that is exactly what a purchase on credit is, if you don’t have enough money to buy it out right. A person walks in and buys something they cannot afford, and they put it on credit. Had they just saved their money, they could have purchased it when they could actually afford it.

On your second point, I do wash my hands every time after using the bathroom and always cover my mouth when coughing or sneezing. I also stay home when sick. I think it is absurd you don’t because I assume you are capable.

So because of people like you, who are either to lazy, to rude, to stupid, or just plain pathetic, the rest of us should be punished by ruining livelihoods?

 

[gkekoa]

Your right, I guess I should believe you. After all, you seem to know it all about this. Show me the facts you are basing your claims on. I would love to see them. Because reality is we just don't know enough yet to make any definitive claims other than this virus is very infectious and can be lethal to those that are health compromised. We don't even know how many have it, have had it, or how they are getting it. Your statement that by doing your proposed actions soley, the disease couldn't transfer is almost comical. Good luck my friend. I hope you aren't living with or have a loved one that is immune compromised.
We have a flu vaccine and less than half the population choose to get it. That is why we we have millions of cases a year. Granted, it is not fool proof. Your are correct that the flu vaccine is strain specific and sometimes we get the strain wrong as it mutates every year. But if more chose to take the vaccine year in and year out, there would be less cases.

I'm not even sure you know why the quarantine was actually implemented. It was all about the potential to bring our health care system to its knees. What we may never know is if it was warranted or not. But I have no problem erring on the safe side until we have more data. That is why we need testing.

I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to think for yourself.

Fact one- COVID-19 disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
Naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it

Fact two- SARS-CoV-1 has no cure, neither do any of the other corona viruses. (following is assumption) I assume the closest related disease is SARS. If we don’t have a cure for SARS, having been around since 2003 and easily three times (at a minimum) as deadly as COVD-19, then why should we believe there will be a cure for COVD-19 because a politician says so? I could list out other viruses without a cure and their statistics as well such as the flu, which everybody has had, and everybody still catches, but you get the point.
Estimates of SARS death rates revised upward
SARS: Symptoms, Prevention, & Treatment

Fact three- There are actually 7 different human corona viruses, to include MERS (death rate near 35%) COVD is novel, simply because it is new.
Coronavirus | Human Coronavirus Types | CDC
Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV)

Fact four- WHO lavished praise on Sweden and has called it a model for the next phase. Sweden did not shut down and trample the freedom of their people. Instead, they trusted them.
Sweden is a model for the new coronavirus normal, says WHO | News | The Times

What other facts would you like to make an informed choice and opinion?

 

[skinsdad62]

So you are faulting people who have significantly more experience than you do for basing recommendations off of unknown, unpredictable events due to unprecedented spread of a brand new virus, and getting SOME of the predictions wrong?

That sounds reasonable to you?

cool.

Faulting who . The only people who are at fault are the Chinese govt .

I do believe I stated clearly I believed they did the best they could ( meaning the experts ) but that doesn’t change the fact they were wrong and it doesn’t mean I have to buy everything they say as gospel

 

[Rowdy]

Its the Japanese murder hornet, homey. Cuz, you know, they're from Japan. And yeah, they look absolutely nasty, but that's a fucked up name some ass0 gave them

You’re probably right, but I’ve heard it called both, and I’d much rather blame China than japan.

 

[j_y19]

I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to think for yourself.

Fact one- COVID-19 disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
Naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it

Fact two- SARS-CoV-1 has no cure, neither do any of the other corona viruses. (following is assumption) I assume the closest related disease is SARS. If we don’t have a cure for SARS, having been around since 2003 and easily three times (at a minimum) as deadly as COVD-19, then why should we believe there will be a cure for COVD-19 because a politician says so? I could list out other viruses without a cure and their statistics as well such as the flu, which everybody has had, and everybody still catches, but you get the point.
Estimates of SARS death rates revised upward
SARS: Symptoms, Prevention, & Treatment

Fact three- There are actually 7 different human corona viruses, to include MERS (death rate near 35%) COVD is novel, simply because it is new.
Coronavirus | Human Coronavirus Types | CDC
Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV)

Fact four- WHO lavished praise on Sweden and has called it a model for the next phase. Sweden did not shut down and trample the freedom of their people. Instead, they trusted them.
Sweden is a model for the new coronavirus normal, says WHO | News | The Times

What other facts would you like to make an informed choice and opinion?

Well, lets start with the facts that will back your claim that proper hygiene and not sneezing on any one is all we have to do to stop the spread of the virus? I don't see those facts in here,, but that is your claim.

 

[gkekoa]

Well, lets start with the facts that will back your claim that proper hygiene and not sneezing on any one is all we have to do to stop the spread of the virus? I don't see those facts in here,, but that is your claim.

Hygiene is extremely important because unless you want to TEST a healthy person EVERY time they go into public, COVD is transmittable.

Experts agree that it is transmittable through inhalation of droplets from a person with COVD. Coughs and sneezes expel these droplets. Covering your mouth and nose prevents the droplets from getting into the air. WHO states these droplets only travel three feet because of weight. Yes, particles from a sneeze can travel up to 25 feet, but not these droplets. Point is moot if you cover your mouth and nose. Good hygiene would also say to wash your hands after coughing or sneezing onto them.

It is also possible to get the virus by touching a surface and then touching your eyes, mouth, or nose. If you wash your hands prior to touching, you will be fine.

Now, the only thing that leaves is speaking. Don’t invade other people’s personal space when speaking.

Is coronavirus airborne? COVID-19 transmission

So unless you are going to test every single person, every single time they leave their home, symptoms or not, hygiene is far more important than a test.

 

[j_y19]

Hygiene is extremely important because unless you want to TEST a healthy person EVERY time they go into public, COVD is transmittable.

Experts agree that it is transmittable through inhalation of droplets from a person with COVD. Coughs and sneezes expel these droplets. Covering your mouth and nose prevents the droplets from getting into the air. WHO states these droplets only travel three feet because of weight. Yes, particles from a sneeze can travel up to 25 feet, but not these droplets. Point is moot if you cover your mouth and nose. Good hygiene would also say to wash your hands after coughing or sneezing onto them.

It is also possible to get the virus by touching a surface and then touching your eyes, mouth, or nose. If you wash your hands prior to touching, you will be fine.

Now, the only thing that leaves is speaking. Don’t invade other people’s personal space when speaking.

Is coronavirus airborne? COVID-19 transmission

So unless you are going to test every single person, every single time they leave their home, symptoms or not, hygiene is far more important than a test.

Don't disagree with anything you have said. But this doesn't back up your claim.

Its interesting that you cite these experts here, but they are the same ones saying to quarantine which you dismiss as quackery. Interesting......

 

[j_y19]

history says that there has NEVER been a cure or vaccine for a corona virus yet i am supposed to believe one will come by the end of the year because DR fauci says so ? he could be right but the track record is 0%

well lets look at what the expert never wrong scientist have said about this virus

1st it couldnt spread from animals to humans . seems like that was wrong

a mask wasnt needed then its needed

2.5 mil were going to die even with social distancing in the US but we are at 37 000

we were at 67,000 but we are at 37 000 because numbers were inflated our "experts " couldnt count or didnt know what a proper cause of death was . you be the judge

sweden was going to have 100000 deaths because they didnt shut down , they have 3000

our medical systems wouldnt be able to handle the volume but they did

we wont have enough ventilators but we did

the above are things our scientist said would happen and models based on scientific data were supposed to happen and they were wrong . now i dont want to get into a science bashing competition but i know BS when i read it and see it and i dont need to be an expert in a field to know it

i do believe they did the best they could

a few years ago i got a call from my wife telling me her dad had congestive heart failure and was going to die . i drove 15 hrs straight from MA to MI .

when i got there i got the gloomy diagnosis and then looked at the chart . it turns out the were giving him all the meds he was allergic too ! me the cave dwelling knuckle dragger non expert had to be the one to unfuck what subject matter "experts " fucked up . they stopped giving him the meds , gave him the proper ones and he lived for 1/2 decade more

so no you dont have to buy what i believe but if you think these experts are fail safe arbitrators then you could be in for a rude awakening

Which all proves my original point that GK took exception with. That we don't know jack shit about this virus. Even the world 's most notable expert in infection diseases, Dr. Fauci, is learning. My point being is we need more data before we open the doors wide like GK is a proponent of. He may be fine, but there are others in the world that won't. And we owe it to them to inconvenience ourselves at least until we have a better grip on just what this is, how it is spread (all facets) and who has it. Is there even immunity once you have had it? We don't even know that definitively yet. To think that all we need to do is wash our hands and cover our mouths when we cough to stop the spread is really dangerous thinking.

 

[skinsdad62]

Which all proves my original point that GK took exception with. That we don't know jack shit about this virus. Even the world 's most notable expert in infection diseases, Dr. Fauci, is learning. My point being is we need more data before we open the doors wide like GK is a proponent of. He may be fine, but there are others in the world that won't. And we owe it to them to inconvenience ourselves at least until we have a better grip on just what this is, how it is spread (all facets) and who has it. Is there even immunity once you have had it? We don't even know that definitively yet. To think that all we need to do is wash our hands and cover our mouths when we cough to stop the spread is really dangerous thinking.

I think we know quite a bit about this virus . 80% of the deaths are the elderly . It doesn’t seem to effect children . Sunlight and humidity tend to kill the virus on surfaces. There are plenty of businesses that can be open now and with masks and gloves with social distancing . Dept. stores ,crafting. Stores movie theaters parks beaches ,stadiums , gyms , gun stores , furniture store , indoor and outdoor construction to include roofing , churches , schools , colleges state and local parks vet. Clinics mom and pop shops for furniture , ice cream shops , candy stores , bike shops , hospitals for all types of care all can be opened up .

and here is an idea , if you are at risk or don’t feel safe then stay at home

I see no reason for this to keep on going because 100 % safety isn’t going to happen

and god forbid we have to do this during flu outbreaks which kill just as many people .

sorry but the Data doesn’t support this type of lockdown

 

[j_y19]

I think we know quite a bit about this virus . 80% of the deaths are the elderly . It doesn’t seem to effect children . Sunlight and humidity tend to kill the virus on surfaces. There are plenty of businesses that can be open now and with masks and gloves with social distancing . Dept. stores ,crafting. Stores movie theaters parks beaches ,stadiums , gyms , gun stores , furniture store , indoor and outdoor construction to include roofing , churches , schools , colleges state and local parks vet. Clinics mom and pop shops for furniture , ice cream shops , candy stores , bike shops , hospitals for all types of care all can be opened up .

and here is an idea , if you are at risk or don’t feel safe then stay at home

I see no reason for this to keep on going because 100 % safety isn’t going to happen

and god forbid we have to do this during flu outbreaks which kill just as many people .

sorry but the Data doesn’t support this type of lockdown

So what would the results have been like if we didn't quarantine? How may Americans would be infected? How many deaths would we have?