Andy Dalton Article

[CrashDavisSports]

It really isn't idiotic if you use a little common sense.

MLB was weak, but the defense was still great. Having a better MLB would definitely improve the defense, but not dramatically, and very insignificantly compared to the effect on the offense if Dalton would improve just a little bit.

Dalton constantly doesn't see open receivers. He's consistently bad with the long ball. He's very antsy in the pocket. Everytime the pocket even remotely starts to collapse, he stops looking down the field. I really couldn't give a crap about his stats. Any QB would put up decent stats on this team.

I don't want YPA to "take care of itself" because we have better weapons or because we get more yac. I want it to improve via Dalton being better throwing the ball down the field. If YPA improves, but Dalton is the same QB, what does it matter? He will still be a hindrance to this team.

As I pointed out, it was a lot more than just SS and MLB, it was most of the offense surrounding Dalton last year. I think Dalton did pretty good considering the supporting cast he had around him most the year.

 

[jdwills126]

Dalton is the product of the Bengals philosophy right now....

Make the plays you can make and don't turn the ball over. If you want Cutler are you willing to accept the high turnover rate and the seemingly hopeless attachment to B. Marshall? And he may be the best QB about to hit FA.

Dalton is a developing QB and if you change now he very well goes on to have a great career for someone else. He has been good enough to win and he is still developing. Maybe the blame if any needs to be assigned is assigned to the O-Coordinator and Head Coach for the way they are managing Dalton.

Dalton> Tannehill
Dalton> Wheeden
Dalton> Ponder
Dalton> Wilson
Dalton> Sanchez
Dalton> Manuel
Dalton> Smith
Dalton> Locker

 

[ckhokie]

C
SS
MLB
OLB (last year now occupied by Harrison)
LT (because Whitworth was hurt)
LG (for the first half the season until Boling starting rolling a bit)
WR (everyone behind AJ Green)
RB (everybody)
TE (Gresham or bust, unfortunately, Gresham was also bust)
CB (the speed of our secondary at times last year hurt us)

This is what I was expecting, and it is a flawed post.

Like flaming pointed out, we all know MLB sucks, but the defense and front 7 are good. SS as a position is weak, but again, the defense is solid, and we have a 1st round CB pick from last year back in the secondary.

RB and TE were addressed in the draft, plus you defend BJGE in other threads. Why are you saying he is a weakness now?

We have one of the best WRs in the game and a QB who cannot get him the ball (or give him a chance) consistently. It doesn't matter who all the others are.

Having a bad SS or a bad LG 'for half of the season' doesn't lose us games and get us blown out in the playoffs. Having a weak QB does.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Yes, Dalton probably hurt the offense more than Ray, but in the playoff game Dalton missed the long ball to Green, but had Gresham not dropped 18 balls thrown his way, or if Rey M could have covered Daniels a bit better...the Bengals could have been in position to win that game, even with as poorly a game that Dalton played. You can argue that those two players cost the Bengals the game more than Dalton. Gresham catches those wide open passes, and Dalton's numbers improve automatically.

Also, while I agree that I want Dalton to improve on his areas, what I mean by when certain stats will "take care of themselves" it is a reflection of Dalton trying to do too much with too little. As much as he may have missed shots down field, or an open WR, how many times did Gresham drop a pass, or tate, or the 2ndary WR's simply not get open, or the OL fail to open any meaningful running lanes?

Everyone seems to act like Dalton is in his 5th or 6th year last year surrounded by all-pro talent. Far from the case. The guy is just starting his 3rd year, and by all accounts has aquitted himself pretty fairly, playoff losses aside.

Try to keep it in perspective. Go back and review some of the better QB's 1st couple of years starting when they were starting as rookies, and then look at year 2 and compare it to Dalton's year last year.

Comp Att % Yards YPA TD INT
Dalton 329 528 62.3 3,669 6.95 27 16
Ryan 263 451 58.3 2,916 6.47 22 14 (14 games started)
P Manning 331 533 62.1 4,135 7.76 26 15
Brady 373 601 62.1 3,764 6.26 28 14

Now...please, before anyone gets bent out of shape I am NOT trying to compare Dalton to any of these guys stating that Dalton is on track to be nearly as good as ANY of these guys...but, I'm simply showing that Dalton's year last year is not NEARLY as bad as you want it to sound, even with regards to YPA...Dalton is 2nd on that list behind only Manning in terms of YPA, and he had a couple of pretty good WR's AND a TE, AND an all-pro OL to give them all plenty of time to get open.

While Dalton's growth may not be what we would have liked to have seen in year 2 (more YPA, better % on deep throws, a playoff win) it isn't lining up to make year 3 a "make or break" year.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

This is what I was expecting, and it is a flawed post.

Like flaming pointed out, we all know MLB sucks, but the defense and front 7 are good. SS as a position is weak, but again, the defense is solid, and we have a 1st round CB pick from last year back in the secondary.

RB and TE were addressed in the draft, plus you defend BJGE in other threads. Why are you saying he is a weakness now?

We have one of the best WRs in the game and a QB who cannot get him the ball (or give him a chance) consistently. It doesn't matter who all the others are.

Having a bad SS or a bad LG 'for half of the season' doesn't lose us games and get us blown out in the playoffs. Having a weak QB does.

Once again, I am speaking about last year. You say Dalton needs to improve. Well, hard to improve with a lack of product around you. This year, he has some help. So let's see how he does.

Yes, we have one of the best WR's in the NFL, but why in the hell would Dalton goes his way very often when he is double and triple covered at times? So he goes to Gresham and he drops the first down conversion.

We didn't get blown out in the playoffs, we lost 19-13 and had a chance to win the game in the last minute with a slightly over thrown pass in the endzone. Plus, the defense gave up how many damn yards in that game, allowed the offense to convert how many 3rd downs, and their rushing attack which is not all Maualuga really flopped too.

Your complete hatred of Dalton is about as disgusting as everyone claims my homerism for Dalton is. Meet me halfway and we can start agreeing on some things. However, you and Flaming are so far left (not counting Kramer because he jumped off the left edge so long ago he doesn't even count), that I have to try and even this thing out by sitting on the right edge myself. I prefer the grey area.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Yes, Dalton probably hurt the offense more than Ray, but in the playoff game Dalton missed the long ball to Green, but had Gresham not dropped 18 balls thrown his way, or if Rey M could have covered Daniels a bit better...the Bengals could have been in position to win that game, even with as poorly a game that Dalton played. You can argue that those two players cost the Bengals the game more than Dalton. Gresham catches those wide open passes, and Dalton's numbers improve automatically.

Also, while I agree that I want Dalton to improve on his areas, what I mean by when certain stats will "take care of themselves" it is a reflection of Dalton trying to do too much with too little. As much as he may have missed shots down field, or an open WR, how many times did Gresham drop a pass, or tate, or the 2ndary WR's simply not get open, or the OL fail to open any meaningful running lanes?

Everyone seems to act like Dalton is in his 5th or 6th year last year surrounded by all-pro talent. Far from the case. The guy is just starting his 3rd year, and by all accounts has aquitted himself pretty fairly, playoff losses aside.

Try to keep it in perspective. Go back and review some of the better QB's 1st couple of years starting when they were starting as rookies, and then look at year 2 and compare it to Dalton's year last year.

Comp Att % Yards YPA TD INT
Dalton 329 528 62.3 3,669 6.95 27 16
Ryan 263 451 58.3 2,916 6.47 22 14 (14 games started)
P Manning 331 533 62.1 4,135 7.76 26 15
Brady 373 601 62.1 3,764 6.26 28 14

Now...please, before anyone gets bent out of shape I am NOT trying to compare Dalton to any of these guys stating that Dalton is on track to be nearly as good as ANY of these guys...but, I'm simply showing that Dalton's year last year is not NEARLY as bad as you want it to sound, even with regards to YPA...Dalton is 2nd on that list behind only Manning in terms of YPA, and he had a couple of pretty good WR's AND a TE, AND an all-pro OL to give them all plenty of time to get open.

While Dalton's growth may not be what we would have liked to have seen in year 2 (more YPA, better % on deep throws, a playoff win) it isn't lining up to make year 3 a "make or break" year.

Or, if Gruden had not decided to remove AJ Green from the 1st half game plan.

Plus, that is all I was saying. Dalton is not free from blame. he made mistakes, he needs to improve in order to take us to that next level. However, everyone acts like the offense was all pro around Dalton last year, and that is not the case. Most of the offense was terrible with a couple exceptions. Dalton is a young guy, needs to work on some things, but did pretty well last year considering the lack of help he had.

Before executiting im as the Bengals starting QB, people need to see how he does with the talent around him now, not based off last year.

 

[flamingrey]

However, you and Flaming are so far left (not counting Kramer because he jumped off the left edge so long ago he doesn't even count), that I have to try and even this thing out by sitting on the right edge myself. I prefer the grey area.

LOL

 

[flamingrey]

NFL Quarterbacks on the Hot Seat | Bleacher Report

ChatRewind: Projecting Pittsburgh Steelers RBs - ESPN

Very good article:

Film Review: Andy Dalton Under Pressure - Cincy Jungle

'Hard Knocks' increases pressure on Andy Dalton, Marvin Lewis - NFL.com

The nfl.com article was a pleasure reading. Repeating a lot of the things most of us have been saying.

As one NFL executive phrased it, "Dalton and Lewis are fortunate they have one of the best coordinator tandems in the NFL."

Take out a sheet of paper. Rank the quarterbacks in the NFL. Where do you have Dalton on your list? I have him as the 22nd-best quarterback in football.

One NFL executive told me on Monday night the ranking was "spot-on," while another wondered why he was "that high on the list."

Meanwhile, another executive from a playoff team said he would rank Dalton higher than I did, putting him "in the 17-20" range. I responded to that exec by asking him if Dalton was a franchise quarterback. His answer? "You can win with him if you have a great offensive coach and a strong defense."

Andy Dalton does not have a strong arm. He doesn't have great accuracy. He doesn't put fear in the opposition.

So much for me and hokie being so far to the "left" that you have to compensate for it. Based on what unbiased analysts see, we seem to be pretty well centered.

 

[flamingrey]

Excellent exchange between PFF staff and Reedy (and others):

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/

Summary of how grades are given:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

For example, a raw stat might tell you a tackle conceded a sack. However, how long did he protect the QB for before he gave it up? Additionally, when did he give it up? If it was within the last two minutes on a potentially game-tying drive, it may be rather more important than when his team is running out the clock in a 30-point blowout.
.
The average grade, or what we would typically expect of the average player, is therefore defined as zero. In reality, the vast majority of grades on each individual play are zero and what we are grading are the exceptions to this.

Oops!

 

[CrashDavisSports]

NFL Quarterbacks on the Hot Seat | Bleacher Report

ChatRewind: Projecting Pittsburgh Steelers RBs - ESPN

Very good article:

Film Review: Andy Dalton Under Pressure - Cincy Jungle

'Hard Knocks' increases pressure on Andy Dalton, Marvin Lewis - NFL.com

The nfl.com article was a pleasure reading. Repeating a lot of the things most of us have been saying.

So much for me and hokie being so far to the "left" that you have to compensate for it. Based on what unbiased analysts see, we seem to be pretty well centered.

And then you have others that would actually support Dalton and rank him higher. So there are the folks who will not like Dalton. There are some that will like him.

As I said, give him this year to prove or unprove himself. Last year's offense was a fucking disaster, not just Dalton. See if guys can stay healthy around him, if these rookies can step it up.

So if Dalton has the exact same year as last year but wins a playoff game this time, is he still a flop? Or what if he has an excellent season but they lose the playoff game anyways even though he had a good game? Still a flop? QB's are measured by wins and losses, not all t he other stuff that we keep pointing to. So please tell me, at what point do you start rallying around Dalton as the starting QB? What exactly does he have to do? Nothing short of a Lombardi?

 

[flamingrey]

Terry Bradshaw > (fill in the blank)?

I've given you a plethora of areas he needs to work on/improve. Never have I said I believe Dalton sucks because he hasn't won a playoff game. Nor will the simple act of winning or losing another playoff game change that.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Terry Bradshaw > (fill in the blank)?

I've given you a plethora of areas he needs to work on/improve. Never have I said I believe Dalton sucks because he hasn't won a playoff game. Nor will the simple act of winning or losing another playoff game change that.

Fair enough.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Excellent exchange between PFF staff and Reedy (and others):
[MEDIA=twitter]306530489232138241[/MEDIA]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/

Summary of how grades are given:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/



Oops!

• DON’T GUESS — If you’re not 95 percent sure what’s gone on then don’t grade the player for that play. The grades must stand up to scrutiny and criticism, and it’s far better to say you’re not sure than be wrong.

So basically how many plays are not being added in here that could have lowered the score because they were not sure whose freaking fault it is?

We are looking for the result of that poor technique, not the poor technique itself. If poor technique results in a positive play, that is graded at the same level as good technique yielding a positive play. Did the lineman make the block he attempted, by whatever means?

So basically, even if the offensive lineman fails like a fat piece of crap, but Dalton succeeded on the play anyway with positive results thanks to the skill players around him, that offensive lineman still gets credit for doing his job at a high level because the play was a success? Wow, how can I not take this site as Gospel for goodness sakes. Sounds like logical science to me!!

 

[flamingrey]

1. So you suggest that when the analysts don't know what's going on in a play, they should just make something up? And how often do you think that this is the case? I think this is more a disclaimer that our guys know what the hell they're doing, not just playing guesswork - "I think this is what just happened."

2. Now you're just being silly. Falling on your butt is NOT "POOR TECHNIQUE". That's a result of sucking.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

1. So you suggest that when the analysts don't know what's going on in a play, they should just make something up? And how often do you think that this is the case? I think this is more a disclaimer that our guys know what the hell they're doing, not just playing guesswork - "I think this is what just happened."

2. Now you're just being silly. Falling on your butt is NOT "POOR TECHNIQUE". That's a result of sucking.

No, they shouldn't make something up, but just how many plays do they throw out because they don't know what the hell just happened?

Hey kevin, did you just see what happened there? Naw man, I was too busy hittin this blunt dawg. Fair enough. We won't add that play into the system.

What they should do is ask professional coaching staffs, what happened here, whose fault was it, and let's use all the snaps, with correct data to come to a conclusion. Otherwise, you and I can just sit around and grade these assholes ourselves and probably do just as well. Sounds like a couple college kids writting a term paper and they needed a fucking retarded topic.

I said FAIL, not FALL. Failing could be so much more than falling on his fat ass.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

Andy Dalton's #2 receiver and #3 receiver during his first two NFL seasons were Jerome Simpson/Andre Caldwell (2011) and Andrew Hawkins/Brandon Tate (2012).


Simpson/Caldwell receiving totals in 2012 (WITHOUT Andy Dalton/Bengals):

- Jerome Simpson totaled only 26 receptions for 276 yards
- Andrew Caldwell totaled only 1 reception for 18 yards (with Peyton Manning)


Hawkings/Tate best career receiving totals BEFORE Andy Dalton:

- 23 receptions for 263 yards for Hawkins
- 1 reception for 4 yards for Tate


The fact is the Cincinnati Bengals receiving depth has been poor in Andy Dalton's first two seasons.

 

[DanBengalfan]

Andy Dalton's #2 receiver and #3 receiver during his first two NFL seasons were Jerome Simpson/Andre Caldwell (2011) and Andrew Hawkins/Brandon Tate (2012).


Simpson/Caldwell receiving totals in 2012 (WITHOUT Andy Dalton/Bengals):

- Jerome Simpson totaled only 26 receptions for 276 yards
- Andrew Caldwell totaled only 1 reception for 18 yards (with Peyton Manning)


Hawkings/Tate best career receiving totals BEFORE Andy Dalton:

- 23 receptions for 263 yards for Hawkins
- 1 reception for 4 yards for Tate


The fact is the Cincinnati Bengals receiving depth has been poor in Andy Dalton's first two seasons.

we still love the baby hawk though, he just isn't a complete NFL WR

Good QBs are expected to get it done with mid level NFL receivers, everyone knows Dalton is mediocre, above average at best, he certainly isn't elite, the best he can hope for is to be compared to Matt Ryan or Matt Schuab, given enough talent around him, he may improve... of course... but so would my mom.

 

[Yu Lee - A Nova Lover]

we still love the baby hawk though, he just isn't a complete NFL WR

Good QBs are expected to get it done with mid level NFL receivers, everyone knows Dalton is mediocre, above average at best, he certainly isn't elite, the best he can hope for is to be compared to Matt Ryan or Matt Schuab, given enough talent around him, he may improve... of course... but so would my mom.

Andy Dalton 2012 Statistics:

27 td 16 int
87.4 QB Rating
62% completions
3669 yards
4 fumbles


Joe Flacco 2012 Statistics (WITH Boldin, Smith, Pitta, and Ray Rice):

22 td 10 int
87.7 QB Rating
59% completions
3817 yards
9 fumbles

 

[flamingrey]

Andy Dalton's #2 receiver and #3 receiver during his first two NFL seasons were Jerome Simpson/Andre Caldwell (2011) and Andrew Hawkins/Brandon Tate (2012).


Simpson/Caldwell receiving totals in 2012 (WITHOUT Andy Dalton/Bengals):

- Jerome Simpson totaled only 26 receptions for 276 yards
- Andrew Caldwell totaled only 1 reception for 18 yards (with Peyton Manning)


Hawkings/Tate best career receiving totals BEFORE Andy Dalton:

- 23 receptions for 263 yards for Hawkins
- 1 reception for 4 yards for Tate


The fact is the Cincinnati Bengals receiving depth has been poor in Andy Dalton's first two seasons.

You must have come from the Bengals board. I haven't seen someone twist the facts or tell half truths like that since....well, yesterday, the last time Crash posted.

Jerome Simpson had also started a whopping TWO games in his career prior to 2 years ago. And in those 2 games he did start (the final 2 games of the season), he had 247 receiving yards for an average of 123.5 yards per game.

Caldwell has never been more than a #3 or #4 receiver, nor was he asked to do more than that in Cincinnati. In 2011, he was the 4th (not 3rd) leading receiver behind Green, Simpson, and Gresham. And by mid-late season he had been replaced by Hawkins. However, if we were to extrapolate his yards to a 16 game season (he played 10 games), he'd have had 507 yards. Not bad for a #4 guy.

Furthermore, I do find it extremely interesting that you decided to take his play under the "Bengals" completely out of the equation. He did play 3 seasons with Carson prior to 2011 with Carson. But I guess if you considered those, you wouldn't have been able to make your flawed argument.

Interesting how you make Hawkins and Tate Dalton's #2 and #3, Hawkins started 2 games and Tate 3. We actually had 3 different guys starting as the #2. Granted none of them are legit #2's (except Sanu played like it), your argument here is flawed and pretty ridiculous.

Individually, the talent wasn't tops in the league, but it wasn't any worse than average, and definitely not "poor". Combined with having one of the best #1's in the league and a great system, the WR corps and system as a whole was better than average.

 

[flamingrey]

Andy Dalton 2012 Statistics:

27 td 16 int
87.4 QB Rating
62% completions
3669 yards
4 fumbles


Joe Flacco 2012 Statistics (WITH Boldin, Smith, Pitta, and Ray Rice):

22 td 10 int
87.7 QB Rating
59% completions
3817 yards
9 fumbles

Now why don't you post their:

1) playoffs statistics
2) statistics against the better defenses