Aldon Smith Agrees to Plea Deal

[deep9er]

Police: 3-year-old shot, killed younger brother

is this just another statistic?

 

[deep9er]

I'm going to try to minimize the scope of what I'm discussing in this thread if I can re because I spent way too much time on it, but I'm just curious; what specific "gun reform" would you institute, and what specific result would you expect to see from it?

Re: Offenders knowing victims of burglaries (from Bureau of Justice Statistics) 2003 - 2007:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

*Each year from '03 to '07 an average of 3.7 million burglaries occurred in US
*Of those, roughly 1 million occurred when a household member was present
*Of those 1 million, 266,560 (26.7%) household members were victims of violent crime
* In 65% of violent burglaries when someone was home, the assailant was known to the victim.
*If I'm reading this correctly, 3% of the violent burglaries included r*pe.

Also Deep, in your mind how many rapes are the moral equivalent of one accidental child shooting?

was going to stop since I can't add anything new, but will reply to the above since you've replied to my posts.

1. Don't have a good plan for gun reform because do feel true hunters should be allowed to hunt. but as I said earlier, if I had to choose between two extremes, I'd choose a ban on guns. can I just say a ban on all guns except hunting rifles and hunting shotguns? as law enforcement keep removing existing handguns and modified guns from society, there should be less gun incidents over time. a plan would also address the availability of bullets.

2. don't know how to address "How many rapes are the moral equivalent........"? obviously I have a strong opinion on guns, but isn't this question expanding the topic to crimes in general? maybe that's why we don't connect, I'm focusing on guns and you're focusing on all crimes....as though guns will deter all types of crime?

again, doesn't need to be my child before I see the light, doesn't need to be ME before I see the light. there are way too many problems with guns, unrelated to hunting.

thanks for allowing me to 'argue' my opinion, I mean that.

 

[NinerSickness]

Even according to these stats, the burglar knew the residents in 7% of burglaries. Nothing about this supports your, "Most burglars know their victims."

In terms of r*pe, 0.2% of burglaries culminate in r*pe. Absolutely devastating for a victim, but a fairly insignificant number in the grand scheme of things.

I already addressed that earlier. In like 72% of the cases, it's impossible to know if the intruder was known because nobody was home. It didn't say how often the intruder known in the non-violent break-ins when someone was home. It only addressed violent break-ins as far as how often the intruder was known to the victim.

I wasn't using that study to prove my claim that I think most burglaries are not randomly chosen without any knowledge of the victim. I was just adding it to the information for some data about how prevalent these thins are.

And .2% isn't insignificant when it's .2% of 3.7 million.

 

[NinerSickness]

You said gun crimes. At least twice. Now it's violent crimes? Make up your mind, Sick.

I've seen these numbers addressed; England does appear to have a higher violent crime rate, though the numbers that are often cited don't accurately reflect the actual reality as "violent crimes" as defined in England is much broader than in the US.

Though I wouldn't think many people would be surprised that a country with significantly higher population density has higher crime rates.

I added the violent crimes stat because it's pertinent to the conversation; armed people can protect themselves from violent crime (especially in their own business or home). England's home office site doesn't have a breakdown of armed VS unarmed robberies (probably for political reasons), but the robbery statistics are showing because robberies are usually armed around 40% of the time in western countries.

What does England include in "violent crime" that the US doesn't?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I added the violent crimes stat because it's pertinent to the conversation; armed people can protect themselves from violent crime (especially in their own business or home). England's home office site doesn't have a breakdown of armed VS unarmed robberies (probably for political reasons), but the robbery statistics are showing because robberies are usually armed around 40% of the time in western countries.

What does England include in "violent crime" that the US doesn't?

Armed robberies don't necessarily mean a gun. A robbery with a knife is still an armed robbery. Based on all the actual numbers we've seen in this thread, gun crimes are much lower in England than the US. Arguing that crime in general is higher in England because of strict gun laws is a tremendous stretch IMO.

 

[NinerSickness]

You edited out the math fallacy broseph

You were the one with the math fallacy broseph. You said the study claimed 4.7% of break-ins had known intruders. That was a fallacy. In my correction of your fallacy I made a mistake that I edited out, but the current post is correct.

Look, we get it. Your shitcon-addled brain has so warped your sense of morality that you think it's ok to shoot thieves.

There it is! I know you lib's aren't transparent about what you believe and your motivations like I am. This isn't about whether gun control works or not to you. This isn't about intellectual honesty either. You lib's simply don't care about thieves breaking into people's houses and stealing their shit (or commit violence & r*pe). You honestly don't think it's that big of a deal when thieves break into law-abiding citizens' homes.

...That is, until it happens to you. You lib's constantly* relativistic about justice until you need some justice for yourself.

*I'm speaking in generalities, but there's no other way to speak of a large population than in generalities.

 

[NinerSickness]

Armed robberies don't necessarily mean a gun. A robbery with a knife is still an armed robbery. Based on all the actual numbers we've seen in this thread, gun crimes are much lower in England than the US.

That's true. And like I said, the home office doesn't include the breakdown of gun robberies VS other kinds, and until I find the actual data I haven't proven that point. I'll concede that point. But I'm going to keep looking when I get the chance.

I was right about armed robberies more than doubling in 1 year after the '97 ban though, and that was the very thing I was trying to show happens all over the world when guns are banned.

Arguing that crime in general is higher in England because of strict gun laws is a tremendous stretch IMO.

It depends on what kind of crime. They don't have a higher rate of every kind of crime of course.

 

[NinerSickness]

1. Don't have a good plan for gun reform because do feel true hunters should be allowed to hunt. but as I said earlier, if I had to choose between two extremes, I'd choose a ban on guns. can I just say a ban on all guns except hunting rifles and hunting shotguns?

As surprising as this may sound, I'm not extremely far off on this kind of thinking.

Everyone knows that rifles are CERTAINLY not the problem in the grand scheme of things. Rifles should be easier to get than handguns IMO. I think it was like 300 or so rifles that were used in murders VS like 9000 hand guns in one year. You can't just hide a rifle or shotgun in your pocket and go up to a guy and surprise him; everyone will see you coming a mile away.

However, I do believe people should be able to get conceal-carry permits for handguns. And people with conceal-carry permits almost never commit any crimes at all. Perhaps limit the age to 25 & up (although I'd want to see the breakdown of legally-owned firearms used in shootings VS those illegally obtained before I took a position on that).

These days, they make much more sophisticated gun boxes that accidental child shootings should not even exist any more. Obviously some people are stupid with their guns just like they're stupid about leaving poisonous substances out for their kids to drink and die (at a rate 6 times higher than w/ guns mind you). Accidental deaths cannot be 100% prevented.

But even if you pass a law saying that you have to have a gun locked in a gun box w/ minor children in the home, there will always be some dumbasses who ignore that safety precaution. Violence and the instruments thereof is ALWAYS the lesser of two evils. I wish it weren't necessary, but assholes who break into your home, steal, r*pe, assault or murder make it so.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

What does England include in "violent crime" that the US doesn't?

Some info on this:

Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does | PolitiFact

 

[NinerSickness]

Some info on this:

Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does | PolitiFact

So England doesn't include "simple assaults" and r*pe "not by force." So like statutory r*pe I'm assuming.

I couldn't tell if the article actually cited how many simple assaults and statutory rapes occurred in the UK. And it didn't say what the difference between a simple assault and aggravated assault is. Not exactly a well-written critique, but they have a point. The ratio may not by 3.5 to 1. Maybe it's like 3 to 1 UK?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

So England doesn't include "simple assaults" and r*pe "not by force." So like statutory r*pe I'm assuming.

I couldn't tell if the article actually cited how many simple assaults and statutory rapes occurred in the UK. And it didn't say what the difference between a simple assault and aggravated assault is. Not exactly a well-written critique, but they have a point. The ratio may not by 3.5 to 1. Maybe it's like 3 to 1 UK?

Not the most detailed source, but I think it's reliable in terms of identifying the problem with the comparison. As said, it does appear that the UK has more per capita crime. I think there are a lot of explanations for that beyond strict firearm laws.

 

[deep9er]

As surprising as this may sound, I'm not extremely far off on this kind of thinking.

Everyone knows that rifles are CERTAINLY not the problem in the grand scheme of things. Rifles should be easier to get than handguns IMO. I think it was like 300 or so rifles that were used in murders VS like 9000 hand guns in one year. You can't just hide a rifle or shotgun in your pocket and go up to a guy and surprise him; everyone will see you coming a mile away.

However, I do believe people should be able to get conceal-carry permits for handguns. And people with conceal-carry permits almost never commit any crimes at all. Perhaps limit the age to 25 & up (although I'd want to see the breakdown of legally-owned firearms used in shootings VS those illegally obtained before I took a position on that).

These days, they make much more sophisticated gun boxes that accidental child shootings should not even exist any more. Obviously some people are stupid with their guns just like they're stupid about leaving poisonous substances out for their kids to drink and die (at a rate 6 times higher than w/ guns mind you). Accidental deaths cannot be 100% prevented.

But even if you pass a law saying that you have to have a gun locked in a gun box w/ minor children in the home, there will always be some dumbasses who ignore that safety precaution. Violence and the instruments thereof is ALWAYS the lesser of two evils. I wish it weren't necessary, but assholes who break into your home, steal, r*pe, assault or murder make it so.

its not the permit carrying people that I worry about, my problem is these guns get lost and stolen, and end up with NON-permit carrying people.

ok sorry, yesterday did say I wasn't going to post anymore on this topic.

 

[AdelaideCrows83]

Here are some comparisons between the country with the highest rate of gun ownership (US - 89 guns per 100 people) and two countries which have had gun reform, England (6 guns per 100) & Australia (14 guns per 100).

What does this prove? Nothing. But it does show that while the US is ranked 1st in homicides by a long way, the US is not ranked 1st in any of the other crime categories here.

Is it fair to suggest that high rate of gun ownership = more deaths but less crime? I'm not basing that on stats, it just seems logical to me.

Intentional homicide (per 100k people):
5.0 - US
1.2 - Australia
1.1 - England and Wales

r*pe Cases (per 100k):
91.9 - Australia
28.6 - US
27.7 - England and Wales

Robbery (per 100k):
137 - England and Wales
133 - US
18 - Australia

Assault (per 100k):
730 - England and Wales
327 - Australia
262 - US

Burglary (per 100k):
1017 - Australia
986 - England and Wales
715 - US

*crime rate (2006) from here: http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf
*gun rate (2007) from here: Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[NinerSickness]

But it does show that while the US is ranked 1st in homicides by a long way, the US is not ranked 1st in any of the other crime categories here.

Is it fair to suggest that high rate of gun ownership = more deaths but less crime? I'm not basing that on stats, it just seems logical to me.

The US is also overrun by criminals called illegal aliens. And California, Arizona & New Mexico have a ton of murders, rapes, burglaries and so on.

In 2006, Heather McDonald testified before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration & Border Security and cited a study published by the Center for Immigration Studies (from INS / FBI data) saying:

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally


The magnitude of this kind of problem is specific to the United States. It's also something that adds to a ton of other crime statistics. From the same study:

53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes"

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The US is also overrun by criminals called illegal aliens. And California, Arizona & New Mexico have a ton of murders, rapes, burglaries and so on.

In 2006, Heather McDonald testified before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration & Border Security and cited a study published by the Center for Immigration Studies (from INS / FBI data) saying:

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally


The magnitude of this kind of problem is specific to the United States. It's also something that adds to a ton of other crime statistics. From the same study:

53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes"

The South is the region of the US that has the most per capita property and violent crimes by far. Incidentally, they also have generally permissive gun laws. The West covers the NW, but murder rates are comparable or higher in almost every Southern state than in CA, NM, or AZ.

As far as the numbers you cite above, I simply don't believe that ANYONE would lie, or present misleading numbers before the U.S. Congress. Though a few thoughts: the numbers for warrants represent outstanding warrants, as in warrants that have not been served. So why would an illegal immigrant be more likely to have an outstanding warrant? Because when the subject of the warrant is illegal, they don't have ID, have forged ID, or are ready and willing to head back to their country of origin, all factors that make it markedly harder to serve them with a warrant. And how many of the illegal immigrants in those detention centers are there because they are illegal immigrants?

But hey, never pass up an opportunity to lump a few conservative conspiracy theories together.

 

[whysies]

When did Sick and Toby become the same person?



Imma let you finish here Sick because getting the last word in seems to be really important to you. But shit man, try and take it down a notch, huh? Especially if you have kids, imagine what you're going to be like when you get old. This is already some scary shit man.

 

[sjballer03]

When did Sick and Toby become the same person?



Imma let you finish here Sick because getting the last word in seems to be really important to you. But shit man, try and take it down a notch, huh? Especially if you have kids, imagine what you're going to be like when you get old. This is already some scary shit man.

I've gotten this deep into the rabbit hole with Sick in the past and it always feels like I'm arguing with a weird combo of Sick + Toby + Purguy. This three headed monster is too much to handle at times.

 

[NinerSickness]

As far as the numbers you cite above, I simply don't believe that ANYONE would lie, or present misleading numbers before the U.S. Congress.

Those numbers came directly from the FBI and INS.

And it's not a conspiracy theory to say that illegal aliens are causing a ton of crime (including murder) when they make up 1/4 of all inmates in CA and almost half (around 40%) of al inmates in NM and AZ. You're right that there are more murders in the south. Think about that for a second. Where are there the most illegals in the US?

I'm not saying illegals are the only ones committing murders & other crimes, but it's a huge problem that other countries don't have to deal with.

Also, states do not all have uniform gun laws. Some cities and counties have different gun laws than the rest of the state. And in states as huge as CA, AZ, NM & TX, particular cities with a ton of gun crime can make the entire state look worse. The national average is around 3 murders per 100,000 people. The top gun-homicide cities in the US per 100,000 people are (2012):

1. Flint, MI (64.9) 21.6 times the national average
2. Detroit (54.6)
3. New Orleans (53.5)
4. St. Louis (35.5)
5. Baltimore (35)
6. Birmingham, AL (33.7)
7. Oakland (33.1) <---- You simply don't want to go there. It's bad. Used to be nice, but it's a crap hole now.
8. Newark, NJ (33.1)
9. Baton Rouge, LA (28.9)
10. Memphis, TN (24.1)

In bold are the cities with strict gun regulation (7 out of the top 10). Some of these cities have gone into so much debt (unfunded liabilities) they've had to cut police forces by huge margins (like Flint, Oakland, etc). In fact, it takes police about 50 minutes in Flint to respond to most 911 calls; good luck reporting a non-emergency crime in those cities.

The closer you look at who & where the gun problems are, the more it becomes impossible to defend the kind of gun regulations these places have.

 

[NinerSickness]

shit man, try and take it down a notch, huh? Especially if you have kids, imagine what you're going to be like when you get old. This is already some scary shit man.

We're having a very civil discussion about a hot topic here (esp. w/ Crimson & Deep). I don't see what the problem is. I think (hope) all of us are learning some stuff. I know I have.

It's a long offseason. I'm sure we'll have more football take the attention off of this kind of thing ina couple of months.

 

[whysies]

We're having a very civil discussion about a hot topic here (esp. w/ Crimson & Deep). I don't see what the problem is. I think (hope) all of us are learning some stuff. I know I have.

It's a long offseason. I'm sure we'll have more football take the attention off of this kind of thing ina couple of months.

It started with your "Death to thieves! The Constitution says so!" herpidy derpidy and is now moving in the direction of your racist retardation. It's just scary stuff man. I'm saying take it down on a notch as life advice, not for the sake of this thread. The thread is fun to read, especially watching you stumble your way through a bunch of stuff you don't know anything about because of your pathological sickness (no pun intended) to hunker down in an argument even when you are destined to lose. You do it with 49er personnel decision hypos all the time, and now you've moved on to an off topic because its a dead time in the NFL. I can dig it.

But just as a bigger life thing- this isn't healthy. You're not even old bro. Who is going to want to talk to you when your shitty shitcon ideas take an even stronger hold on your brain? Racist young/middle aged men who come up with half-baked arguments about really important/complicated topics to try and make it fit their narrow, divorced from any real connection to reality worldview is bad enough. But think about those guys when they're old. No way.

Engage in amusing convos with randos on the Internet all the live long day. Just don't let this shit bleed into your real life. That's all I'm saying. We have seen where this type of worldview gets people when they get older. I like you sick. I don't want you to end up like him.

Ok, that's all I wanted to say, I'll stop this topic. Carry on my bros.