Game Thread: 9.4 Spyder getting Cained

[tzill]

As much as I complain about the signing, the counter argument (from TZ, I think) was that the QO was not given because he was worth 20m, but because they wanted him, and they weren’t going to risk losing him over a few million. They knowingly overpaid paid him to lock him in and to show other potential FAs (Judge, primarily) that they were serious.

It didn’t work. Not even a little bit. Joc just won the lottery. Congrats to him.

Yeah, I would've bet money that he'd be a 2.5 WAR player this year, mostly DHing.

Boy, I was not right on that call.

 

[tzill]

If you want Matos, Ramos and VR up, more than just dfa'ing DeJong will need to happen. Wade and Haniger would need to be put on the IL or someone else needs to go.

Exactly. Joc or Wilmer can do IL stints too.

 

[calsnowskier]

Through today's game:
Offense: 25th
Fielding: 29th
Pitching: 12th
Stolen bases: 30th

Can't hit. Can't field. Can't run.

Can pitch.

To slightly above league average…

Our only strength is only slightly above average while our weaknesses are near worst in the league bad.

This team blows. And this is year 6 of the FZ regime. This is HIS team, folks…

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah, I would've bet money that he'd be a 2.5 WAR player this year, mostly DHing.

Boy, I was not right on that call.

I didn’t like the move from day one. But I do, at least, acknowledge that there was a strategy to his QO. But it was a bad strategy that did not pay off. Much like many of FZs strategies.

Yaz was a B- pick up. Wade was a B pickup. Gaussman was an A pickup. Rodon was an A pickup. Gaussman was a C drop. Rodon was an A drop. Wilson was a D pickup. LaStella was an F pickup.

Overall, I think FZ has been a failure as the lead for the org. He has had SOME successes, but his failures, imho, have well outnumbered and outweighed his successes.

 

[Stokes1931]

I didn’t like the move from day one. But I do, at least, acknowledge that there was a strategy to his QO. But it was a bad strategy that did not pay off. Much like many of FZs strategies.

Yaz was a B- pick up. Wade was a B pickup. Gaussman was an A pickup. Rodon was an A pickup. Gaussman was a C drop. Rodon was an A drop. Wilson was a D pickup. LaStella was an F pickup.

Overall, I think FZ has been a failure as the lead for the org. He has had SOME successes, but his failures, imho, have well outnumbered and outweighed his successes.

The Dodgers have had lots of injuries and lots of legal issues this year, but they have several very solid/MVP hitters that carry/influence the lineup with Betts and Freeman with Smith and Martinez thrown in.

Muncy is like Schwarber, his average is poor (.206) but the dude has 32 homers (about 20 against the Giants).

The Giants have no one on this team who anchors the lineup. Joc couldn't. Conforto couldn't, though he did for a couple of weeks. Wade? Estrada? Flowers? All complementary hitters, but not ones to carry a team. Craw appears too injured/washed up to do this.

Would Ohtani help? but at what price?

At some point, the Giants need to either develop or sign a stud hitter or two. Maybe no one wants to come to SF to hit. Then build a team with strengths that befit the stadium, like, I dunno, SPEED?!?

Instead, we have plodding, unathletic, slow and uninspiring hitters. Unless that changes, we ain't going nowhere.

But hey, if FZ and the PTB's like shopping the bargain bins and the blue light specials at k-mart, we are doomed.

 

[calsnowskier]

The Dodgers have had lots of injuries and lots of legal issues this year, but they have several very solid/MVP hitters that carry/influence the lineup with Betts and Freeman with Smith and Martinez thrown in.

Muncy is like Schwarber, his average is poor (.206) but the dude has 32 homers (about 20 against the Giants).

The Giants have no one on this team who anchors the lineup. Joc couldn't. Conforto couldn't, though he did for a couple of weeks. Wade? Estrada? Flowers? All complementary hitters, but not ones to carry a team. Craw appears too injured/washed up to do this.

Would Ohtani help? but at what price?

At some point, the Giants need to either develop or sign a stud hitter or two. Maybe no one wants to come to SF to hit. Then build a team with strengths that befit the stadium, like, I dunno, SPEED?!?

Instead, we have plodding, unathletic, slow and uninspiring hitters. Unless that changes, we ain't going nowhere.

But hey, if FZ and the PTB's like shopping the bargain bins and the blue light specials at k-mart, we are doomed.

Eventually, signing FAs should be PART of the strategy.

But not yet.

This team has some young talent. But are any of those kids potential superstars?

Maybe Harrison. Maybe Bailey. Maybe Luciano. Maybe Whisenhunt. (Likely only Luciano and/or Harrison have that potential)

But we are not on the verge of having a Braves or Dodgers type of roster. We don’t even have a star like Freeman that we could weather losing unexpectedly. We don’t have a pitching staff to be able to withstand losing the likes of Bauer, Gonsolin, Urias and Buehler and still have a somewhat competitive staff.

 

[LHG]

Yeah, I would've bet money that he'd be a 2.5 WAR player this year, mostly DHing.

Boy, I was not right on that call.

He'd be closer if he didn't play the field. His dWAR at BBRef, which I admit is somewhat sketchy, now stands at -1.0.

 

[tzill]

Eventually, signing FAs should be PART of the strategy.

But not yet.

This team has some young talent. But are any of those kids potential superstars?

Maybe Harrison. Maybe Bailey. Maybe Luciano. Maybe Whisenhunt. (Likely only Luciano and/or Harrison have that potential)

But we are not on the verge of having a Braves or Dodgers type of roster. We don’t even have a star like Freeman that we could weather losing unexpectedly. We don’t have a pitching staff to be able to withstand losing the likes of Bauer, Gonsolin, Urias and Buehler and still have a somewhat competitive staff.

Interesting that you mention the doyers roster:

Hitters
Betts, Freeman, Hayward, Martinez, Taylor, Muncy, Rojas -- by trade/FA
Smith, Outman -- developed

Pitchers
Graterol, Phillips, Miller, Brasier -- by trade/FA
Kershaw, May -- developed.

None of their elite players are from the farm system except Kershaw.

No point here, just observing...

 

[tzill]

He'd be closer if he didn't play the field. His dWAR at BBRef, which I admit is somewhat sketchy, now stands at -1.0.

And I thought that was going to be the plan...

 

[calsnowskier]

Interesting that you mention the doyers roster:

Hitters
Betts, Freeman, Hayward, Martinez, Taylor, Muncy, Rojas -- by trade/FA
Smith, Outman -- developed

Pitchers
Graterol, Phillips, Miller, Brasier -- by trade/FA
Kershaw, May -- developed.

None of their elite players are from the farm system except Kershaw.

No point here, just observing...

Good point.

But acquiring a player via trade is TOTALLY different from acquiring a player via FA.

But let’s apply the same analysis to the Giants roster…

Wade, Estrada, Davis, Sabol, Haniger, Conforto, Flores, Cobb, Beck, Pederson - external acquisition
Harrison, Webb, Bailey, Schmitt, Matos, Crawford - developed

The difference between the two teams is that one has made the post season for 10 straight years and one is the Giants.

 

[calsnowskier]

And I thought that was going to be the plan...

Thus the exasperated bitching by myself and LHG.

 

[LHG]

And I thought that was going to be the plan...

It was for most of the season. Then they started putting him in the field for some strange reason.

 

[tzill]

Good point.

But acquiring a player via trade is TOTALLY different from acquiring a player via FA.

But let’s apply the same analysis to the Giants roster…

Wade, Estrada, Davis, Sabol, Haniger, Conforto, Flores, Cobb, Beck, Pederson - external acquisition
Harrison, Webb, Bailey, Schmitt, Matos, Crawford - developed

The difference between the two teams is that one has made the post season for 10 straight years and one is the Giants.

Sure, but you'd have to factor in the cost of acquisition for a fair comparison. Meech and Forto, and Joc I guess, cost a little bit. The rest were all pretty cheap.

We haven't gone out and obtained a Betts or a Freeman. Look at our payroll vs. theirs.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure, but you'd have to factor in the cost of acquisition for a fair comparison. Meech and Forto, and Joc I guess, cost a little bit. The rest were all pretty cheap.

We haven't gone out and obtained a Betts or a Freeman. Look at our payroll vs. theirs.

When the doggies were sucking and in our position, they acquired HanRam (next to Arias, the best 3B in the game at the time). They acquired AGon. Later, they acquired Betts. Then, when they were on top, they acquired Freeman.

The Giants acquired AJ Pollock.


I understand I am cherry-picking my anecdotes. I am ranting. But the core of my rant is accurate. FZ has had 5 years to turn around an empty organization and he has done Jack shit. The 2020 draft looks good, but when compared to the Braves 2020 draft, it is pedestrian at best. He has found a couple OK dumpster dives (primarily Wade and Yaz), but has whiffed on just about everything else.

I understand there are hits and misses with every organization. Sabes traded the loved Matty Williams, and got destroyed in the media for it. But he got Jeff Kent in return. As painful as that trade was, it was a good trade at the end of the day. But he also traded Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for Pierzynski. That’s one of the worst trades in the history of the game.

Some hits. Some misses.

But Sabes also reigned over the career of the greatest hitter in the history of the game and culminated in 3 World Championships. Even without the championships, Sabian’s time at the helm could probably be called a success.

FZ hasn’t done shit. Our farm is deeper, but SO FAR, it hasn’t produced. Luciano was already in the system when he got here, so he doesn’t count (same with Arteaga). I give him credit for Harrison, but even that is still 100% potential. And behind him, who do we have? Whisenhunt? McCray? Arias?

And remember, this is FIVE years in to his tenure. Adding one super prospect to the org in 5 years is not something to be bragging about.

 

[LHG]

When the doggies were sucking and in our position, they acquired HanRam (next to Arias, the best 3B in the game at the time). They acquired AGon. Later, they acquired Betts. Then, when they were on top, they acquired Freeman.

The Giants acquired AJ Pollock.


I understand I am cherry-picking my anecdotes. I am ranting. But the core of my rant is accurate. FZ has had 5 years to turn around an empty organization and he has done Jack shit. The 2020 draft looks good, but when compared to the Braves 2020 draft, it is pedestrian at best. He has found a couple OK dumpster dives (primarily Wade and Yaz), but has whiffed on just about everything else.

I understand there are hits and misses with every organization. Sabes traded the loved Matty Williams, and got destroyed in the media for it. But he got Jeff Kent in return. As painful as that trade was, it was a good trade at the end of the day. But he also traded Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for Pierzynski. That’s one of the worst trades in the history of the game.

Some hits. Some misses.

But Sabes also reigned over the career of the greatest hitter in the history of the game and culminated in 3 World Championships. Even without the championships, Sabian’s time at the helm could probably be called a success.

FZ hasn’t done shit. Our farm is deeper, but SO FAR, it hasn’t produced. Luciano was already in the system when he got here, so he doesn’t count (same with Arteaga). I give him credit for Harrison, but even that is still 100% potential. And behind him, who do we have? Whisenhunt? McCray? Arias?

And remember, this is FIVE years in to his tenure. Adding one super prospect to the org in 5 years is not something to be bragging about.

I do wonder how much the farm has been hindered from FZ's trade deadline strategies. On the plus side, he doesn't often ship off higher end prospects for immediate help. And he's gotten some prospects in trades as well. However, he has rarely shipped out players of note, who could have brought back better hauls. Now part of that problem is that teams under his regime have typically surged just before the trade deadline and looked like contenders. I don't know if this is on him, but there may be some deep org philosophical problems that need to be fixed. Why does the big league club always get hot at the worst time and not maintain at least some semblance of competence afterward (2021 notwithstanding)? And why does the prospects that FZ gets usually have a short shelf life? Some of that is on him, quickly jettisoning who he acquires, but there may also be a problem with how players are being developed. That will be better measured over the next couple of years as this year's rookie class gets more time to play in the big leagues.

 

[filosofy29]

I think my biggest gripe with FZ is the team itself is not enjoyable to watch. Even the 107 win season was fun because of guys like Posey, Crawford and Webb. It’s just hard to get behind hired mercs on 1 year contracts. And for someone that says budget will not be the reason why we lose, we have lost every time. I know two sides have to tango, but it just comes off as lip service more than actual facts (but again, I’m not in these convos so maybe it is just bad luck). During the FZ era, this team just isn’t fun to watch as a whole. But your mmv.

 

[Stokes1931]

I think my biggest gripe with FZ is the team itself is not enjoyable to watch. Even the 107 win season was fun because of guys like Posey, Crawford and Webb. It’s just hard to get behind hired mercs on 1 year contracts. And for someone that says budget will not be the reason why we lose, we have lost every time. I know two sides have to tango, but it just comes off as lip service more than actual facts (but again, I’m not in these convos so maybe it is just bad luck). During the FZ era, this team just isn’t fun to watch as a whole. But your mmv.

Maybe we can send our dues to FZ to help with the finances?

 

[Stokes1931]

To put it in perspective:

 

[calsnowskier]

To put it in perspective:

There is a HUGE jump from #6 to #5 (24 runs). The next largest jump is between #1 and #2 (10 runs).

The Giants (#30) is 30 runs behind Oakland (#29).

They aren’t just bad. They are relatively bad as well. This is not just us blindly complaining that “our team is the worst”. No. Our team is legit the worst.

 

[filosofy29]

Maybe we can send our dues to FZ to help with the finances?

Hey there, Let’s not say things we can’t take back.