Game Thread: 7/4 Crushed Stone @ Peavinator

[msgkings322]

I hate to harp on this (I seem to bring it up several times a season, altho I think this is the first time in 2016) : 'saves' is the most useless, overrated stat in baseball. So coming in with 2 out in the 9th, nobody on and a 3 run lead is the same as coming in with 2 outs, 2 on in the 8th and a 1 run lead? Nope.

Agree 100% but even by that flawed metric, if you blow more than 20% of your opportunities you aren't doing well.

 

[1phlapdown]

 

[tzill]

I hate to harp on this (I seem to bring it up several times a season, altho I think this is the first time in 2016) : 'saves' is the most useless, overrated stat in baseball. So coming in with 2 out in the 9th, nobody on and a 3 run lead is the same as coming in with 2 outs, 2 on in the 8th and a 1 run lead? Nope.

And you've articulated the straw man argument perfectly. It's the same argument about 3 ER in 6 IP not really a "quality start." You're arguing from the bare minimum. Coming in with 2 outs, 2 on in the 9th with a 1 run lead is ALSO a save. It's not USELESS -- there is some info there. Is it perfect? No. And I'd agree we need a second order stat that has a higher correlation to leverage, but the save still means something. It's not as useless as the "decision" for a SP.

So while I don't love the save stat, I'd disagree it's the "worst" in baseball. The "win" is pretty bad. GWRBI is fairly poor, etc....

 

[calsnowskier]

Dogs are playing well. They came from behind tonight...

 

[MarcoPolo]

OK, maybe not the MOST useless, just very, VERY useless.

Straw man? Someone uses 20 saves in 24 chances to say a pitcher is "respectable again" and I point out why I think that saves are a useless stat for judging performance. (That was the point I was trying to make, sorry if I did it poorly.) A straw man would have been if I would have claimed that Santiago *wasn't* a good pitcher, or wasn't 'once again respectable', which I didn't. I simply pointed out that I think the stat is useless, and why.

"You're arguing from the bare minimum" - no, I'm trying to show why I think the stat is pretty damn meaningless. Two extremes and the same stat : 'a save'. That's makes the stat itself pretty meaningless IMO (or, if you prefer, a pretty useless stat for measuring performance).

To make you happy I've dropped the claim that it is THE most useless stat.

 

[MarcoPolo]

PS: Sorry msgkings, I don't mean to jump on you, I just HATE that 'save' stat. HATE, HATE, HATE. Almost more than I hate the Dodgers.

The fact that Casilla saw only 3 batters, let none of them on base, and struck out 2 warmed the cockles of my heart. It's definitely a nice change from the recent TORTURE he's inflicted - a lot better than the walk(s) and/or hit(s) he has allowed in recent outings (yes, plural). I hope that this nice outing is a harbinger of things to come for the rest of the season.

 

[SFGRTB]

PS: Sorry msgkings, I don't mean to jump on you, I just HATE that 'save' stat. HATE, HATE, HATE. Almost more than I hate the Dodgers.

The fact that Casilla saw only 3 batters, let none of them on base, and struck out 2 warmed the cockles of my heart. It's definitely a nice change from the recent TORTURE he's inflicted - a lot better than the walk(s) and/or hit(s) he has allowed in recent outings (yes, plural). I hope that this nice outing is a harbinger of things to come for the rest of the season.

Yeah the 'save' was in the 8th inning, facing the middle of the order.

 

[SF11704]

While I totally agree that the 'save' statistic is somewhat useless .... I am somewhat fascinated by the 'blown save' statistic. In this case the game has been turned over to the relief staff (with a lead) and they allowed the trying run to score. How many times have we turned a lead over to the relief staff (late in a game) and things didn't go to well from that point on .....

 

[tzill]

OK, maybe not the MOST useless, just very, VERY useless.

Straw man? Someone uses 20 saves in 24 chances to say a pitcher is "respectable again" and I point out why I think that saves are a useless stat for judging performance. (That was the point I was trying to make, sorry if I did it poorly.) A straw man would have been if I would have claimed that Santiago *wasn't* a good pitcher, or wasn't 'once again respectable', which I didn't. I simply pointed out that I think the stat is useless, and why.

"You're arguing from the bare minimum" - no, I'm trying to show why I think the stat is pretty damn meaningless. Two extremes and the same stat : 'a save'. That's makes the stat itself pretty meaningless IMO (or, if you prefer, a pretty useless stat for measuring performance).

To make you happy I've dropped the claim that it is THE most useless stat.

The straw man refers to using the bare minimum to judge the stat. Of course most would agree that coming in the eighth with 2 on and up three with two out would be a "weak save," but the average save is much more meaningful than that. I don't think it's useless. There are better stats out there to be sure, but I've yet to find one that measures closing out games with better accuracy. WPI is pretty good, but the stat, much like batting average, still holds some info.

It reminds me of the entire QS debate wherein someone would invariably arugula that QS is "worthless" b/c you can get one by throwing six innings and giving up 3 ER. That's a 4.50 ERA and pretty mediocre. But judging the QS on the bare minimum underestimates its usefulness.

That's all I'm saying. If the save is a poor stat for you, then so be it. It has some meaning for me. We can disagree.