53 man roster?

[Crimsoncrew]

and this is fine for Dobbs, no problem here. but just saying IF this is the case, then can't say part of the reason we're keeping Dobbs......is his ability to play TE? the below is your description earlier for D-linemen.

We go a bit heavy here. Dobbs beats out Tukuafu for the vet spot. His ability to play TE, a position where we are a bit light, helps, and he's considerably younger than Tukuafu and a better pass rusher. No other real serious questions here, though I don't think Dial is guaranteed a spot.

so not arguing whether Dobbs can or cannot play TE, am saying you're on both sides of the fence. first you say keep him because he helps at TE, then say keep Celek because Dobbs can't play TE.


ok good on Dial, obviously i'm with you in hoping he pans out. not as positive in his odds ("pretty good chance"), but i'm with you.

Everything is gray, Deep. There's no black and white, despite your seeming desire to always have it that way. Dobbs has versatility, which helps his chances of making the squad as a backup who will be competing with two draft picks. Obviously his ability to play DE is the single most important factor to consider, but it's not the only one. He can get some looks at TE if we go with a heavier package, and would be tolerable as a third TE if we have injuries. But I like what Celek offers, and given the way WR is shaping up this year, at least early on, I think we need to be able to put two good pass-catching TEs on the field on a regular basis. That means having a backup who is at least something of a receiving threat, and while Dobbs apparently looked surprisingly good catching the ball for a DE, he doesn't profile as a receiving TE. Dobbs is a better pass rusher than Tukuafu, he's younger, cheaper, and contributes more on STs. Those are the primary reasons I like him to win a spot, and the TE bit doesn't hurt.

As far as Dial, I thought he was something of a reach, but he was still a 5th round pick for a very deep team. I don't like our chances of keeping him on the PS, and I'd be somewhat surprised if we cut a 5th round pick - though if there was ever a year to do so, this is it given the sheer number of picks we made.

 

[deep9er]

Everything is gray, Deep. There's no black and white, despite your seeming desire to always have it that way. Dobbs has versatility, which helps his chances of making the squad as a backup who will be competing with two draft picks. Obviously his ability to play DE is the single most important factor to consider, but it's not the only one. He can get some looks at TE if we go with a heavier package, and would be tolerable as a third TE if we have injuries. But I like what Celek offers, and given the way WR is shaping up this year, at least early on, I think we need to be able to put two good pass-catching TEs on the field on a regular basis. That means having a backup who is at least something of a receiving threat, and while Dobbs apparently looked surprisingly good catching the ball for a DE, he doesn't profile as a receiving TE. Dobbs is a better pass rusher than Tukuafu, he's younger, cheaper, and contributes more on STs. Those are the primary reasons I like him to win a spot, and the TE bit doesn't hurt.

As far as Dial, I thought he was something of a reach, but he was still a 5th round pick for a very deep team. I don't like our chances of keeping him on the PS, and I'd be somewhat surprised if we cut a 5th round pick - though if there was ever a year to do so, this is it given the sheer number of picks we made.

it is not my desire, i'm just looking at what you wrote. it isn't easy to follow you when first you write 'black', then later write 'white'.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

it is not my desire, just looking at what you wrote. first your wrote 'black', then later you wrote 'white'.

Pretty sure I wrote "gray" both times.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

49ers Blog and Q&A: 49ers pre-training camp depth chart

Offense:

QB: Colin Kaepernick, Colt McCoy, Scott Tolzien, B.J. Daniels
LT: Joe Staley, Kenny Wiggins, Carter Bykowski
LG: Mike Iupati, Adam Snyder, Wayne Tribue
C: Jonathan Goodwin, Daniel Kilgore, Sherman Carter
RG: Alex Boone, Joe Looney, Al Netter
RT: Anthony Davis, Patrick Omameh
TB: Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter, LaMichael James, Jewel Hampton, D.J. Harper
FB: Bruce Miller, Anthony Dixon, Jason Schepler
TE: Vernon Davis, Garrett Celek
F-TE: Vance McDonald, MarQueis Gray
Z-WR: Anquan Boldin, Ricardo Lockette, Quinton Patton, Kassim Osgood
X-WR: Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins, Marlon Moore, Chuck Jacobs
S-WR- Jenkins, Chad Hall


Defense:

RDE: Justin Smith, Demarcus Dobbs, Tank Carradine*, Lawrence Okoye
NT: Glenn Dorsey, Ian Williams, Lamar Divens
LDE: Ray McDonald, Will Tukuafu, Tony Jerod-Eddie, Quinton Dial*, Mike Purcell
ILB: Patrick Willis, Michael Wilhoite, Nick Moody
ILB: NaVorro Bowman, Darius Fleming, Nate Stupar
ROLB: Aldon Smith, Parys Haralson, Corey Lemonier
LOLB: Ahmad Brooks, Dan Skuta, Cam Johnson
LCB: Carlos Rogers, Chris Culliver, Tramaine Brock, Marcus Cooper
RCB: Tarell Brown, Nnamdi Asomugha, Lowell Rose, Darryl Morris
NCB: Carlos Rogers, Perrish Cox, Michael Thomas, Darryl Morris
SS: Donte Whitner, C.J. Spillman, Trenton Robinson, Ray Ventrone
FS: Craig Dahl, Eric Reid, Darcel McBath, Michael Thomas

Special teams:

Kicker**: Phil Dawson
Punter**: Andy Lee
LS: Brian Jennings, Kyle Nelson, Kevin McDermott
PR: Kyle Williams, LaMichael James, Perrish Cox
KR: LaMichael James, Quinton Patton, Ricardo Lockette, B.J. Daniels

 

[supreme_clientele81]

49ers Blog and Q&A: 49ers pre-training camp depth chart

Offense:

QB: Colin Kaepernick, Colt McCoy, Scott Tolzien, B.J. Daniels
LT: Joe Staley, Kenny Wiggins, Carter Bykowski
LG: Mike Iupati, Adam Snyder, Wayne Tribue
C: Jonathan Goodwin, Daniel Kilgore, Sherman Carter
RG: Alex Boone, Joe Looney, Al Netter
RT: Anthony Davis, Patrick Omameh
TB: Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter, LaMichael James, Jewel Hampton, D.J. Harper
FB: Bruce Miller, Anthony Dixon, Jason Schepler
TE: Vernon Davis, Garrett Celek
F-TE: Vance McDonald, MarQueis Gray
Z-WR: Anquan Boldin, Ricardo Lockette, Quinton Patton, Kassim Osgood
X-WR: Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins, Marlon Moore, Chuck Jacobs
S-WR: Jenkins, Chad Hall

Not familiar with the bold positions. Does the "F" stand for flanker and the "S" stand for slot?

 

[mem49er]

Not familiar with the bold positions. Does the "F" stand for flanker and the "S" stand for slot?

Don't know if he meant this but I was thinking "F" for flex and, yeah, "S" for slot. Though it's usually called the "Y."

 

[Crimsoncrew]

This is what Maiocco said in yesterday's chat when talking about Walker as a swiss army knife:

It's basically the "F" position -- more of a tight end, H-back, slot player who moves around. But what made Delanie Walker a "SAK" is he was also one of the team's core special-teams players.

 

[willtalk]

I think most of you overestimate Tolzien. It was quoted from many sources that Tolzien didn't beat out Johnson for the third spot last year because he was a better QB, rather he fit the role of 3rd QB better. He is easily replaced. He has no real game experience only thing going for him is familiarity with the system. He was undrafted and cut by SD. His only chance at making the roster was by winning the #2 backup role. Daniels fits the role of 3rd QB much better than Tolzien and he has a bigger upside. Harbaugh also stated earlier that he want his 3rd to be on the game active roster by being able to play another position. Daniels would have to fall on his face or Tolzien is gone.

Don't underestimate Gray. He is very valuable as an H back. If either he or McDonald can prove they can block Gray would be more valuable than Celek. Jenkins is also still a real guestion mark because he has yet to show he can fight his way off the line under pressure which he has not had to do during OTA's or minicamp. To pick the 53 you must think outside the box like Harbaugh. He will not always follow the standard practice as evidenced by his going with Kaep last season. The offense that they are morphing the Niners into requires versitile players who can line up all over the field.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I think most of you overestimate Tolzien. It was quoted from many sources that Tolzien didn't beat out Johnson for the third spot last year because he was a better QB, rather he fit the role of 3rd QB better. He is easily replaced. He has no real game experience only thing going for him is familiarity with the system. He was undrafted and cut by SD. His only chance at making the roster was by winning the #2 backup role. Daniels fits the role of 3rd QB much better than Tolzien and he has a bigger upside. Harbaugh also stated earlier that he want his 3rd to be on the game active roster by being able to play another position. Daniels would have to fall on his face or Tolzien is gone.

Don't underestimate Gray. He is very valuable as an H back. If either he or McDonald can prove they can block Gray would be more valuable than Celek. Jenkins is also still a real guestion mark because he has yet to show he can fight his way off the line under pressure which he has not had to do during OTA's or minicamp. To pick the 53 you must think outside the box like Harbaugh. He will not always follow the standard practice as evidenced by his going with Kaep last season. The offense that they are morphing the Niners into requires versitile players who can line up all over the field.

We do? Everyone who has weighed in on the subject has predicted that Tolzien will not make the team this year.

As for Gray, I think he's too raw at this point, and he'll be perfectly safe on the PS. Celek made the team last year. I don't see why he wouldn't this year. Clearly the team likes him, he's experienced at TE, bigger than Gray, and their measurables are fairly similar.

 

[willtalk]

We do? Everyone who has weighed in on the subject has predicted that Tolzien will not make the team this year.

As for Gray, I think he's too raw at this point, and he'll be perfectly safe on the PS. Celek made the team last year. I don't see why he wouldn't this year. Clearly the team likes him, he's experienced at TE, bigger than Gray, and their measurables are fairly similar.

You are correct my post was badly worded. I should not have used the term " You" rather " Most fans" which is what I meant to imply. The fans on this site are not really that typical. If they could stash Daniel on the ps than they might keep Tolzien. But Daniel wouldn't make it to the squad rather he would get picked up by Seattle because they were going to draft him with on of their last two picks and their third QB totally sucks. I don't think Harbaugh will risk losing Daniel. Tolzien is more expendable and easier to replace. Where as players such as Daniel are now more in demand because of the success of the play option and a shorty like Wilson.

As for Gray vs Celek- I think the key to Gray winning out is if either he or McDonald can prove that they can block. That is what Celek does well and the advantage he holds over Gray. Even if McDonald turns out to be good blocker that would make Celeks skill less essential. Gray's has Celed beat in all other respects. He is a much better H back prospect. Harbaugh seems to value the kind of versatility that Gray possesses.

 

[Rathman44]

To me, if you are forced to use your 3rd string QB you are pretty screwed to begin with. Personally I wouldn't use the spot thinking that I better get the best guy in case I actually have to win a Super Bowl with him. So there are really two ways to go with the spot: 1-develop a young, talented, inexperienced prospect who has a lot of room to grow and might be worth something in a couple years OR 2-go with a guy who can provide you with some options at other positions like WR/RB/TE/ST who could at least run the option/pistol and hand the ball off if you have to use him in a pinch.

In my opinion, Tolzien doesn't have that raw talent and instead relies on his high football IQ and experience as a 2year starter in the Big Ten and NFL backup for 2 years. So in this sense I don't think he really fits into that first option as a guy with a lot of raw talent that can be developed a lot more. Due to his football IQ and smart decision making, I think he's closer to his peak than a lot of young QBs at this age.

And I think it's clear that he doesn't fit into that second option.

As for Daniels...I haven't seen much of him obviously. I've seen the college film and he's certainly a great athlete. I'll have to wait and see what he's got at QB but at this point he could very well fall into each of these categories. So at this early stage I think I'd rather take my chances with Daniels knowing at the very least he might provide me with some athleticism as a backup TE or on STs.

But we got time...a lot can change in the next few months. Should be an interesting battle between the players and an interesting battle of philosophies for the coaches.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Tolzien profiles more as a fairly reliable backup/2nd-string QB who can come in and keep a good team afloat for a few games with accuracy and good decision-making (see: Hill, Shaun). That's a valuable commodity. If we hadn't added McCoy, I wouldn't consider getting rid of Tolzien. Unfortunately, McCoy seems to have the second spot mostly locked up, and he also fits that mold. It doesn't make sense to have two similarly physically limited players at backup QB. Given McCoy's presence, I think we would be wise to go with a third-string player who has upside. Ideally that player will, in time, develop into the second QB. Daniels offers a lot more than Tolzien across the board right now. The only area where Tolzien likely has the edge is in his knowledge of the game and perhaps his work ethic. But we've got those things already between Kap and McCoy. I think he's got an uphill battle ahead of him.

 

[deep9er]

To me, if you are forced to use your 3rd string QB you are pretty screwed to begin with. Personally I wouldn't use the spot thinking that I better get the best guy in case I actually have to win a Super Bowl with him. So there are really two ways to go with the spot: 1-develop a young, talented, inexperienced prospect who has a lot of room to grow and might be worth something in a couple years OR 2-go with a guy who can provide you with some options at other positions like WR/RB/TE/ST who could at least run the option/pistol and hand the ball off if you have to use him in a pinch.
In my opinion, Tolzien doesn't have that raw talent and instead relies on his high football IQ and experience as a 2year starter in the Big Ten and NFL backup for 2 years. So in this sense I don't think he really fits into that first option as a guy with a lot of raw talent that can be developed a lot more. Due to his football IQ and smart decision making, I think he's closer to his peak than a lot of young QBs at this age.

And I think it's clear that he doesn't fit into that second option.

As for Daniels...I haven't seen much of him obviously. I've seen the college film and he's certainly a great athlete. I'll have to wait and see what he's got at QB but at this point he could very well fall into each of these categories. So at this early stage I think I'd rather take my chances with Daniels knowing at the very least he might provide me with some athleticism as a backup TE or on STs.

But we got time...a lot can change in the next few months. Should be an interesting battle between the players and an interesting battle of philosophies for the coaches.

of these two options, i'd PLAN on option 1. as much as possible. but ok, sometimes your plan can't be executed exactly as you want. so while you seek that next candidate, you might use a versatile player meanwhile.

whether Tolzien is still that guy or not (option 1), don't know? is Daniels or Gray that guy for option 1, don't know? but i'd always be TRYING to fill option 1, 'future' QB over versatile player.

 

[Rathman44]

of these two options, i'd PLAN on option 1. as much as possible. but ok, sometimes your plan can't be executed exactly as you want. so while you seek that next candidate, you might use a versatile player meanwhile.

whether Tolzien is still that guy or not (option 1), don't know? is Daniels or Gray that guy for option 1, don't know? but i'd always be TRYING to fill option 1, 'future' QB over versatile player.

my point is that I think we can rule Tolzien out as being that young, uber-talented prospect who just needs time to develop/study/acclimate-to-NFL-speed. I think he's limited to an extent physically and although a guy like Drew Brees can certainly overcome that I just don't think we've seen that from Tolzien in his preseason games. The fact that McCoy has already locked up that 2nd string position further justifies this read on the situation. Could he become a fairly decent 2nd stringer...sure, but I don't want to waste my 3rd string spot on that type of ceiling. Hell, I'd rather not even carry a third stringer if that's the case. Just use a PS slot on a QB to run the scout team.

That being said, I think Daniels shows a ton of upside from his college game film. I can't attest to what is going on between his ears, but he certainly is athletic enough to transition to another position or be a Kordell Stewart type if the QB situation doesn't work out. This sort of versatility and upside makes it worth carrying a 3rd stringer in my opinion.

 

[deep9er]

my point is that I think we can rule Tolzien out as being that young, uber-talented prospect who just needs time to develop/study/acclimate-to-NFL-speed. I think he's limited to an extent physically and although a guy like Drew Brees can certainly overcome that I just don't think we've seen that from Tolzien in his preseason games. The fact that McCoy has already locked up that 2nd string position further justifies this read on the situation. Could he become a fairly decent 2nd stringer...sure, but I don't want to waste my 3rd string spot on that type of ceiling. Hell, I'd rather not even carry a third stringer if that's the case. Just use a PS slot on a QB to run the scout team.

That being said, I think Daniels shows a ton of upside from his college game film. I can't attest to what is going on between his ears, but he certainly is athletic enough to transition to another position or be a Kordell Stewart type if the QB situation doesn't work out. This sort of versatility and upside makes it worth carrying a 3rd stringer in my opinion.

and if this is the case, fine. it was a general statement going forward, not meant to say keep Tolzien now.

so IMO next draft keep an eye out for that 'future' QB? IF someone provides value, draft him. but keep an eye out for someone to fill option 1. who knows, maybe Daniels is this guy who happens to have versatility?

 

[Rathman44]

and if this is the case, fine. it was a general statement going forward, not meant to say keep Tolzien now.

so IMO next draft keep an eye out for that 'future' QB? IF someone provides value, draft him. but keep an eye out for someone to fill option 1. who knows, maybe Daniels is this guy who happens to have versatility?

Yeah I hear ya. I love the idea of always trying to draft a QB in the very late rounds and seeing if you strike gold. I think that's what they're trying with Daniels. They'll give him a shot this year, see if he can pan out at QB, and if not, maybe another position.

It'd be great if all these guys just light it up in the preseason...it's crazy what you can get for a QB trade this days.