2018 HOF ballot

[navamind]

And for the Modern Era Baseball Ballot, you can vote for 4, I'd go:
Trammell
Whitaker
Tiant
Evans

mine would be:

Whitaker
Trammell
Grich
Dwight Evans (/homer)

 

[navamind]

as for Thome, I'd say he had some pretty great offensive seasons. Slugged .667 in 2002. He was among the top 10 in his league in OBP and SLG from 1995-2007. I'd say he was an elite hitter for that 13 year stretch (excluding his injury-riddled 2005). He's one of the greatest power hitters of all-time, even when you account for the era he played in IMO and he had a .402 OBP. Even beyond 2007, he managed to provide some value.

Jim Thome Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

mine would be:

Whitaker
Trammell
Grich
Dwight Evans (/homer)

Nothing homer about it. He was the best of the three OF the Sox had in the 70s. Rice is already in and Lynn is Hall of Very good.

My four would be
Trammell
Whitaker
Evans
Lolich IDK if he is still eligible, but IMO he is the biggest one of all Tigers

 

[navamind]

their numbers aren't that similar.

Will Clark Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar Martinez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar had a higher OBP by 34 points. That's a lot. Edgar's power numbers are also a bit better (.203 ISO to Clark's .194). Edgar also has 12.1 WAR on Clark and he only had about 400 more PA.

Clark falls just short for me, but I think he's one of the best players outside the HOF. I'd put him in before the likes of McGriff (maybe even Sheff). The problem for me is that he only had four seasons of 4+ WAR and cracked the top 10 in only three of them. He missed a lot of time due to injuries/strikes/whatever. it's also hard to see a 1B with under 300 home runs making it into the HOF. Look at Keith Hernandez. He's considered to be one of the greatest defensive 1B of all-time and though he hit fewer home runs than Clark, he was still a very good hitter (.296/.384/.436, 128 OPS+). He never got more than 11% on his time on the ballot.

I know you're not a fan of the DH and that probably won't ever change, so there's probably no point in discussing Edgar further.

 

[navamind]

Nothing homer about it. He was the best of the three OF the Sox had in the 70s. Rice is already in and Lynn is Hall of Very good.

My four would be
Trammell
Whitaker
Evans
Lolich IDK if he is still eligible, but IMO he is the biggest one of all Tigers

what hurts Evans is that even though he was a very good defender and a very good hitter, he wasn't really both simultaneously (at least going by Rfield and Rbat). He only had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in WAR. However, he also had 66.9 WAR and had 14 seasons with 3+ WAR and 8 with 4+. So while he didn't really have a strong peak, he was very good for a long time. I think that's enough to put him in, but I can understand why someone might leave him out.

Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

he does fall short of the average WAR/WAR7/JAWS for right fielders, but that number is probably skewed by Ruth/Aaron/Musial/Ott/Robinson/Clemente/Kaline. That's 7 inner circle players (two of whom are considered to be the greatest to ever play). Right field is just a strong position historically.

 

[calsnowskier]

their numbers aren't that similar.

Will Clark Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar Martinez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar had a higher OBP by 34 points. That's a lot. Edgar's power numbers are also a bit better (.203 ISO to Clark's .194). Edgar also has 12.1 WAR on Clark and he only had about 400 more PA.

Clark falls just short for me, but I think he's one of the best players outside the HOF. I'd put him in before the likes of McGriff (maybe even Sheff). The problem for me is that he only had four seasons of 4+ WAR and cracked the top 10 in only three of them. He missed a lot of time due to injuries/strikes/whatever. it's also hard to see a 1B with under 300 home runs making it into the HOF. Look at Keith Hernandez. He's considered to be one of the greatest defensive 1B of all-time and though he hit fewer home runs than Clark, he was still a very good hitter (.296/.384/.436, 128 OPS+). He never got more than 11% on his time on the ballot.

I wasn’t stumping for Clark to get in. I do not believe he was a HOFer. I didn’t even give him a vote in his one and only year on the ballot.

But Edgar, who was never injured in the field and never spent energy in the field and never had to take time to take grounders, enough of a better hitter than Clark to get in when Clark did not even get a 2nd year on the ballot?

For a DH to get in, IMHO, he needs to be a Williams/Bonds/Ruth level hitter. And Edgar was nowhere near that level.

 

[obxyankeefan]

what hurts Evans is that even though he was a very good defender and a very good hitter, he wasn't really both simultaneously (at least going by Rfield and Rbat). He only had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in WAR. However, he also had 66.9 WAR and had 14 seasons with 3+ WAR and 8 with 4+. So while he didn't really have a strong peak, he was very good for a long time. I think that's enough to put him in, but I can understand why someone might leave him out.

Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

he does fall short of the average WAR/WAR7/JAWS for right fielders, but that number is probably skewed by Ruth/Aaron/Musial/Ott/Robinson/Clemente/Kaline. That's 7 inner circle players (two of whom are considered to be the greatest to ever play). Right field is just a strong position historically.

First off shouldn't Musial be listed as a Left Fielder?

With the ones you listed, I would put Evans right there on level with Clemente and Kaline as the best defensive RFs. With some consideration given to Parker, Vlad and Sam Rice. That is my main reason for thinking that Evans has deserved this honor for quite a while. He has to be considered one of the best ever defensive RFs and his hiting is enough that it does not subtract from his fielding.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I wasn’t stumping for Clark to get in. I do not believe he was a HOFer. I didn’t even give him a vote in his one and only year on the ballot.

But Edgar, who was never injured in the field and never spent energy in the field and never had to take time to take grounders, enough of a better hitter than Clark to get in when Clark did not even get a 2nd year on the ballot?

For a DH to get in, IMHO, he needs to be a Williams/Bonds/Ruth level hitter. And Edgar was nowhere near that level.

Just admit you hate the concept of the DH and will never give one any credit.

I will admit that some of my thinking that Schilling is borderline is my hatred towards him and that damn ketchup filled sock.

 

[navamind]

First off shouldn't Musial be listed as a Left Fielder?

With the ones you listed, I would put Evans right there on level with Clemente and Kaline as the best defensive RFs. With some consideration given to Parker, Vlad and Sam Rice. That is my main reason for thinking that Evans has deserved this honor for quite a while. He has to be considered one of the best ever defensive RFs and his hiting is enough that it does not subtract from his fielding.

I didn't even think about that at first. I guess it includes him because he had 783 games in right field (he had 929 in left per BB-Ref).

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Jamie Moyer

i always thought this guy was underrated as a meatball thrower.


2018?


he is "in" 1st ballot….imo

 

[calsnowskier]

Just admit you hate the concept of the DH and will never give one any credit.

I will admit that some of my thinking that Schilling is borderline is my hatred towards him and that damn ketchup filled sock.

I don’t hide the fact. But my logic for keeping him out is consistent with why I hate the DH.

At least a bad fielder has to spend energy out there. And if he is bad enough to cancel his offensive positive, than he doesn’t play. That keeps a relative balance in play. The DH removes that balance.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I don’t hide the fact. But my logic for keeping him out is consistent with why I hate the DH.

At least a bad fielder has to spend energy out there. And if he is bad enough to cancel his offensive positive, than he doesn’t play. That keeps a relative balance in play. The DH removes that balance.

I'm messing with you Cal. I have had enough discussions with you that I know you know what you are talking about, we just disagree on the value of a DH.

I think you have to look at it like the Relief Pitchers. The best of the best should get in. IMO during the 44 years of the DH the best of the best pure DHs have been Baines, Edgar, and Ortiz. Baines is not enough to get in, but Edgar and Ortiz deserve it IMO.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm messing with you Cal. I have had enough discussions with you that I know you know what you are talking about, we just disagree on the value of a DH.

I think you have to look at it like the Relief Pitchers. The best of the best should get in. IMO during the 44 years of the DH the best of the best pure DHs have been Baines, Edgar, and Ortiz. Baines is not enough to get in, but Edgar and Ortiz deserve it IMO.

I wasn’t taking it personally, we are good.

I understand the argument against relievers as well, and I think it is a good comparison. And before the 80s, relievers didn’t deserve to get in, because they were basically just failed starters. But Tekulve, Smith, Sutter and Goose changed that and Eck took it to the next level. The game has changed in regard to relievers without the foundation of the game needing to be warped to allow their use. The DH does not exist without the very fabric of the game getting changed.

 

[navamind]

I'm not sure I'd equate a DH to a relief pitcher though. Relief pitchers face far fewer batters than a DH will have plate appearances. Rivera averaged 267 batters faced per season. David Ortiz averaged 505 PA. Most DHs are probably going to have over 500 PA. I just don't see how they have as much of an impact as a DH typically will, that's why I'm iffy on relief pitchers in regards to the HOF.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not sure I'd equate a DH to a relief pitcher though. Relief pitchers face far fewer batters than a DH will have plate appearances. Rivera averaged 267 batters faced per season. David Ortiz averaged 505 PA. Most DHs are probably going to have over 500 PA. I just don't see how they have as much of an impact as a DH typically will, that's why I'm iffy on relief pitchers in regards to the HOF.

But the average PA for a closer is much more game-critical than the average PA for a DH.

 

[navamind]

I'm fine with the DH because it allows for players that can hit, but don't have the defensive abilities or durability to consistently play a position. And while I do enjoy watching pitchers hit, I also don't enjoy watching pitchers getting hurt doing something that isn't specifically their job. I understand the strategy aspect of the pitcher slot, but I also like to see the best hitters hit more often.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm fine with the DH because it allows for players that can hit, but don't have the defensive abilities or durability to consistently play a position. And while I do enjoy watching pitchers hit, I also don't enjoy watching pitchers getting hurt doing something that isn't specifically their job. I understand the strategy aspect of the pitcher slot, but I also like to see the best hitters hit more often.

And while I don’t agree, I understand this argument.

That’s why I think my proposal of linking the DH to the pitcher is the kind of compromise that may get support.

 

[black francis]

All no, except Chipper

 

[Gopherfan84]

If I had a ballot, I'd probably vote for:

Trevor Hoffman
Edgar Martinez
Curt Schilling
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome

Who I think gets in this year:
Hoffman
Vladamir Guerrero
Chipper
Thome

• I think Edgar will get up to about 65% and be really close either way in his final year on the ballot.
• Thome with 612 HR's and never connected to PEDs makes him a slam dunk 1st ballot
• Johan Santana had a brilliant peak, but he was neither Koufax-level brilliant for his peak nor did he sustain it long enough to get in.
• Andrew Jones probably eventually gets in between 434 HRs and his defense, though it probably takes him a few years.
• I think it's Schilling's relationship with the media that's hurting him more than anything. He was dominant at his peak and played a key role for the 2004 Red Sox.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Of the first time guys, I think it will be Chipper and Thome. Some of those other guys will likely get in at some point but not first ballot, imo. I think they need to finally say to hell with the punishment to Bonds and Clemons and let them in but they may draw that out to the bitter end. Hell, Raines didn't get in until his last shot and I think that had as much to do with his substance abuse as anything.
As for the Edgar thing, I have a sneaking suspicion he may get in whether you agree with a career DH getting in or not. My reasoning for this is that the voters are going to elect Big Papi when he becomes eligible. Some of us will disagree with them but I am almost sure these guys that vote will put him in. And I think they realize that they may want to set a precedent for the DH and understand how well loved Edgar is in many circles.
Beyond that, I got nothing. I'm likely way off base anyway. Cheers guys. Enjoy the WS.