2018 HOF ballot

[soxfan1468927]

my ballot

Bonds
Clemens
Wagner
Chipper
Manny
Santana
Schilling
Walker
Thome
Sosa


I didn't want to put sosa on my list, but if I didn't I would have been a hypocrite with Bonds and Clemens on it meaning Steroids is fine, and then Thome was on it which means 600 HRs has to be a milestone...

Walker's stats are clear HOF player... but he played for the rockies... But don't we have to allow some rockies in the HOF?? I mean they are a major league team...


Curt Schilling, even though I hate him, he will always be on my HOF lists... His post season numbers are one of the best ever... that is to add to his border line HOF regular season career...

Santana is on my list because he is a 2 time CY and he was just the best lefty pitcher of his time... the best... and we need to lower our pitching standards since it will be very rare for a pitcher to be successful and have longevity...

Billy wagner is on my list because he might just be the best lefty reliever of all time...

Notable omissions- Trevor Hoffman, Vlad Guerrero, Mike Mussina, Gary Sheffield, Scott Rolen

I'd say Edgar Martinez and Andruw Jones are also notable omissions.

My question is, why do you care if someone was a lefty starter or a lefty reliever. The results stand for themselves so why does it matter what arm they used?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'd say Edgar Martinez and Andruw Jones are also notable omissions.

My question is, why do you care if someone was a lefty starter or a lefty reliever. The results stand for themselves so why does it matter what arm they used?

I don't have a solid reasoning for this... its just a feeling, I guess I kind of consider them different positions... I mean, we subgroup pitchers all the time... Who was the best Lefty pitcher is a valid subcategory... But that is the best reasoning I have...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I don't have a solid reasoning for this... its just a feeling, I guess I kind of consider them different positions... I mean, we subgroup pitchers all the time... Who was the best Lefty pitcher is a valid subcategory... But that is the best reasoning I have...

Okay. And I think it's tough for people to separate how they measure a pitcher's value beforehand and measure the value of the results. I would value a lefty pitcher over a righty pitcher for my team because I think the lefty is going to get better results. But a lefty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER is the exact same value as a righty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER. So their value after the fact is not affected by which arm they use, and that's what I use to measure whether someone should be in the HOF.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Okay. And I think it's tough for people to separate how they measure a pitcher's value beforehand and measure the value of the results. I would value a lefty pitcher over a righty pitcher for my team because I think the lefty is going to get better results. But a lefty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER is the exact same value as a righty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER. So their value after the fact is not affected by which arm they use, and that's what I use to measure whether someone should be in the HOF.

Yes and no though... and isn't it similar to a first baseman vs a right fielder or whatever?? I mean after the fact you know their stats, but they do have slightly different jobs, even if it looks the same...

generally speaking, an elite lefty pitcher rarely faces the same lineup as an elite right pitcher... so aren't they slightly different??

There is a reason why teams don't just get the 5 best starters they can, they try to get at least 1 lefty...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Okay. And I think it's tough for people to separate how they measure a pitcher's value beforehand and measure the value of the results. I would value a lefty pitcher over a righty pitcher for my team because I think the lefty is going to get better results. But a lefty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER is the exact same value as a righty throwing 7 IP and giving up 3 ER. So their value after the fact is not affected by which arm they use, and that's what I use to measure whether someone should be in the HOF.

and why do you think a lefty would get better results for the red sox... I think it is the opposite...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Yes and no though... and isn't it similar to a first baseman vs a right fielder or whatever?? I mean after the fact you know their stats, but they do have slightly different jobs, even if it looks the same...

generally speaking, an elite lefty pitcher rarely faces the same lineup as an elite right pitcher... so aren't they slightly different??

There is a reason why teams don't just get the 5 best starters they can, they try to get at least 1 lefty...

1. No because you need to start a first baseman and a RFer. If there was a rule stating you had to have half your pitching staff be lefties then that would be similar cases.

2. Sure, but the results are the results. The fact that they are a lefty can help them, but it doesn't increase the value of the results.

3. Still doesn't make the lefty results more valuable.

 

[soxfan1468927]

and why do you think a lefty would get better results for the red sox... I think it is the opposite...

I was speaking in general. The phrasing was awkward. Overall lefties have a lower ERA than righties over the last 10 years. The gap was even larger than usual this year.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1. No because you need to start a first baseman and a RFer. If there was a rule stating you had to have half your pitching staff be lefties then that would be similar cases.

2. Sure, but the results are the results. The fact that they are a lefty can help them, but it doesn't increase the value of the results.

3. Still doesn't make the lefty results more valuable.

never said, more valuable... just why I consider them slightly different positions... and therefore have slightly different measurement...

I mean, if you don't want to separate them, don't... I do consider them slightly different...

 

[soxfan1468927]

never said, more valuable... just why I consider them slightly different positions... and therefore have slightly different measurement...

I mean, if you don't want to separate them, don't... I do consider them slightly different...

Yeah I like your original thought of it being like a sub-category. I can't call them different positions. The ball is just being thrown out of a different hand. I wouldn't compare two first basemen and say they were playing different positions because one is a lefty and the other a righty.

 

[navamind]

my ballot:

Clemens
Bonds
Mussina
Schilling
Thome
Chipper
Manny
Edgar
Walker
Rolen

I'd also vote for Andruw Jones and Vlad, but I would put the 10 players above in before them. I'm not big on relievers being in the HOF and I don't think Hoffman stacks up to Rivera at all, especially when you account for postseason performance (Rivera had a sub-1 ERA and 0.76 WHIP in the postseason... in 141 innings!). Sheffield falls just short in my book. Great hitter, but he's probably one of the worst defensive players of all-time. Manny was a bad defender, but he was also a much better hitter than Sheff was. Kent's borderline IMO, but I wouldn't argue with him being put in on the basis of him being one of the greatest hitting 2nd basemen of all-time.

As for Santana... idk. His peak was really good, but he finished with just over 2000 IP. Even by today's standards, that just doesn't seem like much. But he did win 2 Cy Youngs and you could make a case he should have won another one or two (though I think Lincecum was the right choice in 2008). He has four brilliant seasons and 4 more good (if not full) ones, but then again, Koufax only had 6 good seasons (albeit really good).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah I like your original thought of it being like a sub-category. I can't call them different positions. The ball is just being thrown out of a different hand. I wouldn't compare two first basemen and say they were playing different positions because one is a lefty and the other a righty.

Well, there is a difference between a lefty batter and a righty batter... But so many of both make the HOF that it is not really a worry... Don't you hear all the time how Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera are the 2 best righty hitters of the past 30 years, and of the best ever... Some subcategories are real...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Well, there is a difference between a lefty batter and a righty batter... But so many of both make the HOF that it is not really a worry... Don't you hear all the time how Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera are the 2 best righty hitters of the past 30 years, and of the best ever... Some subcategories are real...

Yes and like I said, I don't mind putting them in sub-categories but I don't think it should matter in terms of the HOF and I certainly don't equate it to being different positions.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes and like I said, I don't mind putting them in sub-categories but I don't think it should matter in terms of the HOF and I certainly don't equate it to being different positions.

I wont have players like Cliff lee or CC sabathia in the HOF, but if you were dominant, and then you were also the BEST at something, I put you in...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I wont have players like Cliff lee or CC sabathia in the HOF, but if you were dominant, and then you were also the BEST at something, I put you in...

If you were dominant than I don't care which arm you used. I don't give extra credit for being the best at throwing with a certain arm just like I don't give extra credit for being the best hitter who doesn't wear batting gloves.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If you were dominant than I don't care which arm you used. I don't give extra credit for being the best at throwing with a certain arm just like I don't give extra credit for being the best hitter who doesn't wear batting gloves.

Well, I didn't know I had to have the same list as you did and for your reasons...

 

[navamind]

Third Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Rolen stacks up very well.

 

[Pastafazul]

spin off topic should be who's head got totally blown out of proportion, shape wise, jones or bonds from roids?

 

[obxyankeefan]

Vlad
Edgar
Clemens
Bonds
Mussina
Manny
Chipper
Thome
Walker
Sosa

Not enough space for

Schilling I am borderline on him. Big question in my mind is should postseason make that much of a difference?
Kent Might be the best power hitting 2B and IMO deserves it eventually
McGriff Always underrated in my mind.

Rolen should get in down the road
Andruw Jones I think he will eventually get in for his defense

 

[calsnowskier]

For me, there are 3 guys who are no-brainers.

Bonds
Clemens
Chipper

After that it gets a bit choppy.

Sosa - insane numbers, but his peak was soooo short. And he has the cork incident ON TOP of the assumptions.

Kent - elite 2B numbers. But his defense was average at best, and he pretty much drove himself out of every town he was in.

Schilling - if Morris isn’t in, why Schilling? If Bum doesn’t get in, why should Schilling? These two have very similar stories to Schilling. He may be an asshat, but he seemed to be liked by his teammates...

Edgar - never. Will Clark has very similar numbers, but he played near GG defense and never gets any Hall love (not even from Giants fans).

Vlad - on the fence for me. He will probably get my vote.

Walker - Colorado. And that makes it tough, because dude was a beast. But the elevation put a HUGE stink on his career.

Hoffman - The argument against him is that Rivera should get in first. Why? Eck is in, so the cherry no longer exists. He will probably get my vote.

McGriff - Hall of Very Good. He was a solid 1B in an era of a shit-ton of ELITE 1B. I won’t cry if he makes it, but he won’t get my vote.

Rolen - I am on the fence. He never really struck me as a HOFer when I watched him play, but his D was comparable to Robinson and his bat was never a problem. I will probably vote for him, but I am not sold yet.

Thome - I liken my feelings about him to my feelings about Palmeiro. He was always good, but was he ever GREAT? I know he will get in, and I am OK with that. He just isn’t a HOFer to me.

Mussina - never won a CY. Only finished 2nd once. He was an AL guy, so that may explain why he never really made an impression on me, but he was just a guy who was solid. For a long time, never “the guy”. I doubt he gets my vote.

Omar - Probably deserves it more than Ozzie, but I he wasn’t flashy, so he probably falls short. I doubt I give him my vote.

I seriously doubt I will put 10 names on my list. I think the Hall needs to be exclusive, and that means leaving good players out. The Hall should be for the ELITE.

 

[navamind]

Edgar - never. Will Clark has very similar numbers, but he played near GG defense and never gets any Hall love (not even from Giants fans).

their numbers aren't that similar.

Will Clark Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar Martinez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Edgar had a higher OBP by 34 points. That's a lot. Edgar's power numbers are also a bit better (.203 ISO to Clark's .194). Edgar also has 12.1 WAR on Clark and he only had about 400 more PA.

Clark falls just short for me, but I think he's one of the best players outside the HOF. I'd put him in before the likes of McGriff (maybe even Sheff). The problem for me is that he only had four seasons of 4+ WAR and cracked the top 10 in only three of them. He missed a lot of time due to injuries/strikes/whatever. it's also hard to see a 1B with under 300 home runs making it into the HOF. Look at Keith Hernandez. He's considered to be one of the greatest defensive 1B of all-time and though he hit fewer home runs than Clark, he was still a very good hitter (.296/.384/.436, 128 OPS+). He never got more than 11% on his time on the ballot.